New Veno/Barb Form Bugs

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
edited October 2013 in Quality Corner
I understand most of the bugs are already known. IE weapon damage for sage being normal, fox form sounds being bugged, form abilities being active while character sheet doesn't show it.

My concern instead involves whether these issues will be fixed as they seem pretty major but have received very little attention. I understand that PWI and PWC are very different and given that we only received the forms and none of the skills associated with them it has left me wondering if this is a permanent issue for our version of the game.

If that's the case there will be many angry demon barbs and I will have to keep switching to regular fox to be rid of the annoying high heel steps in fox form. Normally I would not be so skeptical of such a thing, and I know there are more important issues, but receiving only half a content update, paying 5 millions coins for what seems to be little more than an aesthetic change, and hearing nothing about intended fixes in the last two weeks does leave me a little worried.
Post edited by Kiszmet - Heavens Tear on
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Comments

  • Fielyla - Sanctuary
    Fielyla - Sanctuary Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    yep my books are in the bank till fixed QQ veno
  • Fissile - Archosaur
    Fissile - Archosaur Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    ...IE weapon damage for sage being normal...

    Isn't that part of the skill description?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    While this may look like a bug at first, I firmly believe that the full-power attacks for Sage were actually intended by wanmei, despite their terrible implementation of it.

    The intent of the True Form Intensified skills, I think, was was to bring them in line with each other so as to use them as a single base to build a new skill set in the future via Panda form. The skills would then diverge again in Sage/Demon Panda Form/TFI, which is indeed the case (20 chi in Sage vs. crit reduction in Demon).

    The issue arose in how the balancing was done. Rather than examining the merits of the original Sage/Demon True Forms, the devs sought to improve them by removing the inherent limitations of the skills as they had appeared since the Lv1 version. Further evidence of this can be seen with the Veno's new fox forms, as both versions no longer have the MP drain (which again, is not a bug). The only problem with this approach is that Demon True Form's lack of attack damage reduction was its only selling point, so applying this upgrade did nothing for Demon while Sage got buffed. So, while both Veno forms and Sage TFI are just fine, Demon TFI got shafted by comparison.

    Therefore, Demon TFI should have received an additional benefit (unless you want to debate whether 20 chi < crit reduction, but that could go on forever). Although many options would work for this purpose, the easiest way to do this would be to bring the HP up to 40% and speed up to 90% for Demon TFI, thus acheiving parity with the Sage version. Every other skill in the game with Sage/Demon benefits has the same base stats before applying those benefits, and TFI should be no exception.

    I play a Sage barb rather than a Demon barb, but I have no wish to see Demon barbs get shafted for this. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

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  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Are the GMs going to address this?

    If so, do they require any finite information (Like the timing of the "buff" demon gets) or any screen shots or videos?

    Of course if they plan to never address it, RIP demon vit or str Barbs and all.
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  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    While this may look like a bug at first, I firmly believe that the full-power attacks for Sage were actually intended by wanmei, despite their terrible implementation of it.

    The intent of the True Form Intensified skills, I think, was was to bring them in line with each other so as to use them as a single base to build a new skill set in the future via Panda form. The skills would then diverge again in Sage/Demon Panda Form/TFI, which is indeed the case (20 chi in Sage vs. crit reduction in Demon).

    The issue arose in how the balancing was done. Rather than examining the merits of the original Sage/Demon True Forms, the devs sought to improve them by removing the inherent limitations of the skills as they had appeared since the Lv1 version. Further evidence of this can be seen with the Veno's new fox forms, as both versions no longer have the MP drain (which again, is not a bug). The only problem with this approach is that Demon True Form's lack of attack damage reduction was its only selling point, so applying this upgrade did nothing for Demon while Sage got buffed. So, while both Veno forms and Sage TFI are just fine, Demon TFI got shafted by comparison.

    Therefore, Demon TFI should have received an additional benefit (unless you want to debate whether 20 chi < crit reduction, but that could go on forever). Although many options would work for this purpose, the easiest way to do this would be to bring the HP up to 40% and speed up to 90% for Demon TFI, thus acheiving parity with the Sage version. Every other skill in the game with Sage/Demon benefits has the same base stats before applying those benefits, and TFI should be no exception.

    I play a Sage barb rather than a Demon barb, but I have no wish to see Demon barbs get shafted for this. :)

    I'm not so certain it was intended, if so that is a huge parity difference between sage and demon forms. Demon pandas don't get the same HP and speed increase as sage pandas (not to mention armor which doesn't show up in the stats). This means that sage pandas got a humungous boon while demons got very little. In fact I would dare say the HP increase + Speed + Armor + weapon damage vs. the other forms both veno and barb is almost game breaking. Not to mention I have heard rumors (yes, I know, rumors) that both human and tiger skill sets can be used in panda form. If so it would explain why I never see barbs leave panda form in pvp. I'll have to watch in NW and TW to see if one of them uses a panda Armageddon f:shock I know you said this should be changed so that demons get the same benefits as sage but without demon/sage panda skills to back it up, another concern I brought forward, why would a barb ever go demon?

    Fox forms are also a bit loopy. I think the forms are benefiting from their intended stat increases though they don't show up on the char. sheet. But it's hard to be certain without the actual numbers displaying and the skill descriptions being copy pasted versions of the old sage/demon form has me worried that the new forms (or old but more powerful forms) were never intended to receive an additional bonus, also making the whole point of buying/questing for the new form completely pointless. +35chi? Oh boy, I don't need to use pet heal anymore... (not to mention 5 tails makes for a far more noticeable target in pvp than standard fox)

    There have been many bugs and changes in game that have been left as is for better or for worse, I wanted to know if this would end up being one of them. I hope not. Not just because it demonstrates poor quality control but it changes the entire balancing dynamic of the dual form classes.
  • Raid_War - Heavens Tear
    Raid_War - Heavens Tear Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    No offense but it couldnt come as a huge surprise Sage Barb skill changed into what it did.

    It was in the early translated version of the chinese update and it was in the decription of the skill in our update. Its not a bug.

    Demon barbs got other advantages sage barbs dont. So using this single skill as reason is rubbish.

    Sage barbs did the job before, now they just do it abit better.
    Demon barbs did the job before, now they just do less dmg compared to the sage.

    The game is changing - change with it
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    No offense but it couldnt come as a huge surprise Sage Barb skill changed into what it did.

    It was in the early translated version of the chinese update and it was in the decription of the skill in our update. Its not a bug.

    Demon barbs got other advantages sage barbs dont. So using this single skill as reason is rubbish.

    Sage barbs did the job before, now they just do it abit better.
    Demon barbs did the job before, now they just do less dmg compared to the sage.

    The game is changing - change with it

    Naw, some of us gamers actually want game balance, not lopsided bennies.

    "Some" being the key word.
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  • bluestuffzzz
    bluestuffzzz Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    While this may look like a bug at first, I firmly believe that the full-power attacks for Sage were actually intended by wanmei, despite their terrible implementation of it.

    The intent of the True Form Intensified skills, I think, was was to bring them in line with each other so as to use them as a single base to build a new skill set in the future via Panda form. The skills would then diverge again in Sage/Demon Panda Form/TFI, which is indeed the case (20 chi in Sage vs. crit reduction in Demon).

    The issue arose in how the balancing was done. Rather than examining the merits of the original Sage/Demon True Forms, the devs sought to improve them by removing the inherent limitations of the skills as they had appeared since the Lv1 version. Further evidence of this can be seen with the Veno's new fox forms, as both versions no longer have the MP drain (which again, is not a bug). The only problem with this approach is that Demon True Form's lack of attack damage reduction was its only selling point, so applying this upgrade did nothing for Demon while Sage got buffed. So, while both Veno forms and Sage TFI are just fine, Demon TFI got shafted by comparison.

    Therefore, Demon TFI should have received an additional benefit (unless you want to debate whether 20 chi < crit reduction, but that could go on forever). Although many options would work for this purpose, the easiest way to do this would be to bring the HP up to 40% and speed up to 90% for Demon TFI, thus acheiving parity with the Sage version. Every other skill in the game with Sage/Demon benefits has the same base stats before applying those benefits, and TFI should be no exception.

    I play a Sage barb rather than a Demon barb, but I have no wish to see Demon barbs get shafted for this. :)

    While I agree with a large portion of your argument, I can't help but believe that it wasn't intentional. It was merely a side-effect of poor management of the content update, and was merely over looked. But who really knows, ya know? You could be right, I could be right, we could both be wrong. No information was really given as to why the sage form get's that extra bonus VS the demon form. Sloppy programming and over-looking the main advantage seems to be the easiest answer, to me.
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm not so certain it was intended, if so that is a huge parity difference between sage and demon forms. Demon pandas don't get the same HP and speed increase as sage pandas (not to mention armor which doesn't show up in the stats). This means that sage pandas got a humungous boon while demons got very little. In fact I would dare say the HP increase + Speed + Armor + weapon damage vs. the other forms both veno and barb is almost game breaking. Not to mention I have heard rumors (yes, I know, rumors) that both human and tiger skill sets can be used in panda form. If so it would explain why I never see barbs leave panda form in pvp. I'll have to watch in NW and TW to see if one of them uses a panda Armageddon f:shock I know you said this should be changed so that demons get the same benefits as sage but without demon/sage panda skills to back it up, another concern I brought forward, why would a barb ever go demon?
    One wonders why barbs would go demon at all, aps builds notwithstanding. :P But as with any class, both cultis still have their redeeming skills and I'm sure there are any number of reasons someone would choose to go demon. Hell, that 50-chi-per-cast for the HP buff alone would be reason enough for some people, provided you can spare a few herb pots to turn into chi-building.

    As far as intent and why it was done... knowing wanmei, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone said "hey, we need to add panda form! let's start by removing all the negative qualities from tiger and fox form!" And then, y'know, sorta forgetting that Demon tiger form had that as its selling point. Half-hearted jobs like that are quite common in this game, after all. :-/ I see that as being far more likely than removing the negative qualities by accident; given how much of a cut-and-paste job the TFI skills had to be in the first place, they'd pretty much have to remove those elements of the skill deliberately.

    I think we both agree that the demon version needs to be balanced, though. I would've put this thread in myself last night if I'd had the time.
    Fox forms are also a bit loopy. I think the forms are benefiting from their intended stat increases though they don't show up on the char. sheet. But it's hard to be certain without the actual numbers displaying and the skill descriptions being copy pasted versions of the old sage/demon form has me worried that the new forms (or old but more powerful forms) were never intended to receive an additional bonus, also making the whole point of buying/questing for the new form completely pointless. +35chi? Oh boy, I don't need to use pet heal anymore... (not to mention 5 tails makes for a far more noticeable target in pvp than standard fox)
    I don't have an endgame veno so I can't comment on this personally... but the venos were probably designed as such:

    Sage: Pdef buff, accuracy buff, no MP decrease, additional pdef
    Demon: Pdef buff, accuracy buff, no MP decrease, temporary speed buff

    Then the sage form would get the extra chi and the demon form would get... whatever the demon form gets (I'm not familiar with it). Either way, there's no way the "no MP decrease" part would be there if it weren't deliberate.

    So going back to the barbs... by this model it would seem almost like the answer is to retroactively give lv89 Demon True Form a different benefit than no attack reduction, seeing as they'd both apply that when upgraded to TFI. But given how reluctant wanmei is to touch the old code rather than just stapling new content onto it, I wouldn't hold my breath for that. :P So a flat 90% HP / 40% speed for both Sage and Demon TFI seems fair to me and would be relatively to implement.

    EDIT:
    While I agree with a large portion of your argument, I can't help but believe that it wasn't intentional. It was merely a side-effect of poor management of the content update, and was merely over looked. But who really knows, ya know? You could be right, I could be right, we could both be wrong. No information was really given as to why the sage form get's that extra bonus VS the demon form. Sloppy programming and over-looking the main advantage seems to be the easiest answer, to me.
    Yeah, this was the impetus for my argument of intent. I'm normally the kind of guy who looks at a benefit and thinks "well THAT sure as hell wasn't intentional." But after watching these devs for four years, I like to think I know at least a little bit about how they work (even though they've changed dev teams at least twice by now, I bet). Sloppy coding tends to result in missing or buggy features, rather than removal of a specific sub-portion of a feature that was already present when copied over. They even modified the skill description to remove the text about the attack damage reduction. I don't see how that could be anything but deliberate.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

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  • Trouty - Sanctuary
    Trouty - Sanctuary Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I find it pretty worrying that nothing has been mentioned by the community managers about the demon barb fiasco.

    Can we get some information on the sage panda full damage, was it intentional ? will the new demon skills make up for this ?.

    Pretty pointless having a demon barb now b:cry

    feels shafted b:sad
  • Josh_fighter - Heavens Tear
    Josh_fighter - Heavens Tear Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    My problem is with the barb forms I am a demon barb and have been one for 3 years.
    the fact of the matter is the sages new true form does full damage 40% max hp and 90% movement speed on top of this there Axe and Hammer Mastery does 100% weapon damage and Shapeshifting Intensity is 120% phy deff. The demon barb true form hes full damage 30% max hp and 80% movement speed. The demon barb Axe and Hammer Mastery does 75% weapon damage and Shapeshifting Intensity is 80% phy deff. When you look back at the first sage true form there is a 50% less weapon damage so because the demon barbs have less phy def in true form and there Axe and Hammer Mastery is only 75% vs 100% they got full damage. Since the sage barb have doing full damage in true form they been holding agrrow better. So what I think they should do is let the sage barbs keep there full damage in true form but give the demon true form 50% more weapon damage. This would balance the barbs back out and help them all hold agrrow better makeing squad runs much better!
  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I find it pretty worrying that nothing has been mentioned by the community managers about the demon barb fiasco.

    This.f:despise
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lythraos
    lythraos Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Or we could simply deal with it and move on with our lives. The les demon barbs there is the more unique we get.
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    One wonders why barbs would go demon at all, aps builds notwithstanding. :P But as with any class, both cultis still have their redeeming skills and I'm sure there are any number of reasons someone would choose to go demon. Hell, that 50-chi-per-cast for the HP buff alone would be reason enough for some people, provided you can spare a few herb pots to turn into chi-building.

    As far as intent and why it was done... knowing wanmei, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone said "hey, we need to add panda form! let's start by removing all the negative qualities from tiger and fox form!" And then, y'know, sorta forgetting that Demon tiger form had that as its selling point. Half-hearted jobs like that are quite common in this game, after all. :-/ I see that as being far more likely than removing the negative qualities by accident; given how much of a cut-and-paste job the TFI skills had to be in the first place, they'd pretty much have to remove those elements of the skill deliberately.

    I think we both agree that the demon version needs to be balanced, though. I would've put this thread in myself last night if I'd had the time.


    I don't have an endgame veno so I can't comment on this personally... but the venos were probably designed as such:

    Sage: Pdef buff, accuracy buff, no MP decrease, additional pdef
    Demon: Pdef buff, accuracy buff, no MP decrease, temporary speed buff

    Then the sage form would get the extra chi and the demon form would get... whatever the demon form gets (I'm not familiar with it). Either way, there's no way the "no MP decrease" part would be there if it weren't deliberate.

    So going back to the barbs... by this model it would seem almost like the answer is to retroactively give lv89 Demon True Form a different benefit than no attack reduction, seeing as they'd both apply that when upgraded to TFI. But given how reluctant wanmei is to touch the old code rather than just stapling new content onto it, I wouldn't hold my breath for that. :P So a flat 90% HP / 40% speed for both Sage and Demon TFI seems fair to me and would be relatively to implement.

    I don't know if simply changing the demon barb boon is a good idea, it will give people even less incentive to go demon barb then there is now. Where I will admit some of the demon skills have nice adds, they are overshadowed by just how powerful the panda form has made sage barbs. If you are correct and the skill change was intended then they need to release the new skills to us ASAP so there is a point to being a demon barb again, I don't remember what the demon barb skill was supposed to be but I remember it was supposed to be pretty nice. The sage was supposed to give +40 def levels or something but it has been a long time since I've looked at that information.

    This would be the best solution as PWE has never been good about going back and changing the old coding, they can't even get the new coding right half the time. Giving demon barbs a new boon might help but what to give them? And what limit would be placed on it so they don't break things even further? Increased attack rate might make them happy but I can already see APS panda and kitty barbs ><. Increased critical chance is already given on their weapon skill. Increased evasion? Barb evasion is so low I don't think it would make much of a difference. Increased att levels maybe, depending on the new skill. Either way give what take, something needs to be done and the problem needs to be addressed by someone so we know what to expect.

    Venos are a little different but the overall issues with them are the adds for sage and demon adv form that are apparent in the calculations but not in the description or character sheets. For example my acc to hit a melee mob was above 80% in old sage form, now in new sage form its gone up to 90%. I remember reading somewhere that sage boons for fox were supposed to be 170% armor increase and 300% acc increase, with 80% speed boost for demon fox. These adds didn't transfer over in the description but they seem to be transferring in the game math, and since the speed increase in barbs is also noticeable though poorly translated and they were also supposed to get HP boosts as well that many say aren't showing up, I have reason to believe this is the case. I could care less about the heel clacks and tiger roar in fox form so long as the above issue is actually finally addressed.
    lythraos wrote: »
    Or we could simply deal with it and move on with our lives. The les demon barbs there is the more unique we get.

    All barbs being sage vit build would be the opposite of unique, someone needs to buy a dictionary or learn to use one of the online ones. I love demon barbs, I think they provide the party with overall greater benefits than sage barbs, but many of my demon barb friends want to quit their barbs due to the lack of communication on this issue.
  • Silviia - Dreamweaver
    Silviia - Dreamweaver Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Naw, some of us gamers actually want game balance, not lopsided bennies.

    "Some" being the key word.

    With the release of Nirvana gear, rank gear and higher refines more easily obtainable the pros that went with the sage cultivation became reduced compared to the pros of the demon path, this has been covered many times in the barbarian subforum where demon barb players have pointed out with detailed explanations why choosing demon is better with how the game has developed. I would not consider that "balance", there might have been a sense of it much earlier in the game but that was over two years ago.

    As things stand I believe the cultivation paths for barbarians need to be rebalanced, to reflect changes in the game and the impact newer gears have. It would not at all surprise me if that's what led to the damage reduction being removed, to give sage more base attack while demon still retain the benefits of crit adds, like it is for sage and demon with other classes.
  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    lythraos wrote: »
    Or we could simply deal with it and move on with our lives. The les demon barbs there is the more unique we get.

    Because you have a sage barb?

    Come on people. Get real.
    With the release of Nirvana gear, rank gear and higher refines more easily obtainable the pros that went with the sage cultivation became reduced compared to the pros of the demon path, this has been covered many times in the barbarian subforum where demon barb players have pointed out with detailed explanations why choosing demon is better with how the game has developed. I would not consider that "balance", there might have been a sense of it much earlier in the game but that was over two years ago.

    As things stand I believe the cultivation paths for barbarians need to be rebalanced, to reflect changes in the game and the impact newer gears have. It would not at all surprise me if that's what led to the damage reduction being removed, to give sage more base attack while demon still retain the benefits of crit adds, like it is for sage and demon with other classes.

    There's also a lot of meatheads (pun intended) on the barb forums that wouldn't be able to put a round peg in the round hole (they're still gnawing on the triangle one).

    Go back and reread. There are educated & intelligent posts with actual evidence & reasoning that speak well of the prior balance between the classes that is now gone that was written before the change. There are new posts showing how lopsided the cultis are now.
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  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I don't know if simply changing the demon barb boon is a good idea, it will give people even less incentive to go demon barb then there is now. Where I will admit some of the demon skills have nice adds, they are overshadowed by just how powerful the panda form has made sage barbs. If you are correct and the skill change was intended then they need to release the new skills to us ASAP so there is a point to being a demon barb again, I don't remember what the demon barb skill was supposed to be but I remember it was supposed to be pretty nice. The sage was supposed to give +40 def levels or something but it has been a long time since I've looked at that information.

    This would be the best solution as PWE has never been good about going back and changing the old coding, they can't even get the new coding right half the time. Giving demon barbs a new boon might help but what to give them? And what limit would be placed on it so they don't break things even further? Increased attack rate might make them happy but I can already see APS panda and kitty barbs ><. Increased critical chance is already given on their weapon skill. Increased evasion? Barb evasion is so low I don't think it would make much of a difference. Increased att levels maybe, depending on the new skill. Either way give what take, something needs to be done and the problem needs to be addressed by someone so we know what to expect.
    From what I heard (which admittedly, was secondhand word-of-mouth that I never bothered to research because we're nowhere near getting it yet), the panda form for both cultis is supposed to get a temporary buff that gives the def level +40 and some kind of massive accuracy boost, like 400% or something. While assuredly useful in PVP, I don't see this skill massively unbalancing sage/demon on its own.

    On reflection, we should probably treat the barbs and the venos a bit differently in this case... because with the venos, neither culti got shafted because both sage and demon benefits were able to carry over to their respective Intensified forms. Not so for barbs. So yeah, you could make the case for reducing the sage weapon damage again, but that would be problematic because it'd be reverting an already-deliberate change, and we know how hard it is to get wanmei to do that. Buffing something else to fix an accidental oversight (in this case, buffing demon HP and speed) would be more up their alley.

    Also, let us not forget that the wep damage reduction for normal/sage true form really isn't that much. My barb uses a TT99 +3 wep (what? he's built for aggro control, not damage :P) and I really only saw ~10% damage reduction in original tiger form. Even on a r9s3+12 wep, you only lose about 1-2k raw weapon damage which doesn't translate to very much of a difference.


    All barbs being sage vit build would be the opposite of unique, someone needs to buy a dictionary or learn to use one of the online ones. I love demon barbs, I think they provide the party with overall greater benefits than sage barbs, but many of my demon barb friends want to quit their barbs due to the lack of communication on this issue.
    I'd prefer all sage vit build barbs to all demon aps barbs... ijs :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
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  • Azura - Lost City
    Azura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    While this may look like a bug at first, I firmly believe that the full-power attacks for Sage were actually intended by wanmei, despite their terrible implementation of it.

    The intent of the True Form Intensified skills, I think, was was to bring them in line with each other so as to use them as a single base to build a new skill set in the future via Panda form. The skills would then diverge again in Sage/Demon Panda Form/TFI, which is indeed the case (20 chi in Sage vs. crit reduction in Demon).

    The issue arose in how the balancing was done. Rather than examining the merits of the original Sage/Demon True Forms, the devs sought to improve them by removing the inherent limitations of the skills as they had appeared since the Lv1 version. Further evidence of this can be seen with the Veno's new fox forms, as both versions no longer have the MP drain (which again, is not a bug). The only problem with this approach is that Demon True Form's lack of attack damage reduction was its only selling point, so applying this upgrade did nothing for Demon while Sage got buffed. So, while both Veno forms and Sage TFI are just fine, Demon TFI got shafted by comparison.

    Therefore, Demon TFI should have received an additional benefit (unless you want to debate whether 20 chi < crit reduction, but that could go on forever). Although many http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/images/smilies/angry.gifoptions would work for this purpose, the easiest way to do this would be to bring the HP up to 40% and speed up to 90% for Demon TFI, thus acheiving parity with the Sage version. Every other skill in the game with Sage/Demon benefits has the same base stats before applying those benefits, and TFI should be no exception.

    I play a Sage barb rather than a Demon barb, but I have no wish to see Demon barbs get shafted for this. :)

    You couldn't had said it better. Both sage barb and veno really got a huge boost, but we demons only got 5% crit resitance for 6 seconds. For me that is nothing, it doesn help at all. Honestly, that 35 chi sage venos gain for changing to fox form makes me jeolous, and makes me wonder why we only got that 5% resistance... It's really unfair, and more to demon barbs because now sage true form has all the benefits of demon true form + their own advantages and 35 chi when they swift. In the meanwhile demon barbs had no change at all, just the 5% crit resistance too.

    In few words:
    -sage veno and barb got an aethestic change and a boost to their animal forms
    -demon veno and barb only got an aethestic change.

    That's really unfair f:angry

    Edit: After reading many posts, in my opinion what wanmei should do is revert all these changes in the new forms, and just make it a aethestic change becuase wanmei doesn't seem to have an idea of pros and cons each cultivation path had before this update. For not knowing all this, they messed up, specially with barbs.
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    From what I heard (which admittedly, was secondhand word-of-mouth that I never bothered to research because we're nowhere near getting it yet), the panda form for both cultis is supposed to get a temporary buff that gives the def level +40 and some kind of massive accuracy boost, like 400% or something. While assuredly useful in PVP, I don't see this skill massively unbalancing sage/demon on its own.

    On reflection, we should probably treat the barbs and the venos a bit differently in this case... because with the venos, neither culti got shafted because both sage and demon benefits were able to carry over to their respective Intensified forms. Not so for barbs. So yeah, you could make the case for reducing the sage weapon damage again, but that would be problematic because it'd be reverting an already-deliberate change, and we know how hard it is to get wanmei to do that. Buffing something else to fix an accidental oversight (in this case, buffing demon HP and speed) would be more up their alley.

    Also, let us not forget that the wep damage reduction for normal/sage true form really isn't that much. My barb uses a TT99 +3 wep (what? he's built for aggro control, not damage :P) and I really only saw ~10% damage reduction in original tiger form. Even on a r9s3+12 wep, you only lose about 1-2k raw weapon damage which doesn't translate to very much of a difference.

    I know the weapon damage nerf isn't a huge difference, 50% of weapon damage Is about 20% of overall damage w/o buffs and att levels factoring in. But it does remain a difference and any advantage no matter how slight,(and 20% damage isn't really all that slight) w/o the other side gaining an advantage of equal utility will be viewed as unfair. The same case can be issued for both barb and veno demon forms. A 6 sec -5% crit buff is only useful if players keep switching back and forth between forms like they have Tourette's (no offense intended), while a 35 chi gain is permanently added to the sage character, making for an overall greater benefit with constant form switching. This only adds to the current issue of the disparity between the forms.

    Regardless, the chi effects vs. the -crit buffs is not the issue here. This is bug report forum and many still believe (or want to believe) that the sage versions of panda form is bugged or broken and that both forms barb and veno did not get the bonuses they were supposed to, incongruent background game math further makes things more confusing as many claim the speed and HP bonuses do not show up with the new barb forms though they certainly run faster than they used to and I have already mentioned the sage venos supposed boons. I posted this here because an official response was needed on this issue but since it has yet to receive one my hopes of this being addressed any time soon continue to wain. It doesn't help that their have been responses to many minor bugs but this one continues to be ignored. At this point even an "I don't know" would be preferential to silence.

    I'd prefer all sage vit build barbs to all demon aps barbs... ijs :P

    I was referring to the squad boons given by inspiration and SoT (+ squad chi and +5% crit boost respectively) not to mention their past higher damage thresholds in tiger form making for overall better crowd control. The barbs I was referring to were Vit demon barbs who chose their path so they could do more damage and support their squad better in pvp ( a minority I know, but that just made them even more awesome). I would never refer to full APS barbs as a "true barb"
  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I, and many more, are still waiting for an answer from the PWI team f:despise

    Are those changes going to be permanent?
    Are more demon vs sage skills coming? Will PWI try to balance thing out or will pwi break more stuff again?
    Should I even consider switching to sage?
    Maybe I should quit? (I would honestly prefer to quit the game than to switch to sage. I've invested too much time and money in building my demon skills and playing style.)
    Will this issue be 'forgotten' into the lower depths?

    Sincerely,
    A Pissed-Barb.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Are the new Untamed forms incomplete as well? We were told that each form will be gaining a new buff as well. Barbs gaining a +Def lvl buff, and Venos gaining a antistun speed buff.


    Any info on if that's coming?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Maelael - Heavens Tear
    Maelael - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,497 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Any comment from the GMs yet? Even if it is being considered?
    pwcalc.com/bb6fc16982637a5c / pwcalc.com/28948ee5778526f5
  • DrgnBlood - Heavens Tear
    DrgnBlood - Heavens Tear Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I've been playing this game for nearly a year and have seen many dif builds and playing styles. When choosing my toons I looked at my playing style and how i wanted the toons to react. I have numerous toons, but have been working on a barb. When i seen this new update for the TFI I was a little excited for the new form. After doing all my research and talk with players i decided months ago when i started the barb that I wanted to go demon. This was because of the boosts from the skills and the full damage from true form when i got the demon skill, although the sage extra atk was tempting. My barb is only lvl 85, and i'm glad i haven't tried to push it to 89 to go demon. Right now I feel like i can't really play it to lvl because of this issue that has come up. I have friends with both sage and demon barbs that are over 100. The demon ones are still the same only can be in panda form for a new look. The sage ones are a little dif now....stronger than ever and i've also seen them use their 2ft skill in panda form.... glitch maybe? if not..why didn't demon get that ability also. I've been saving and getting the demon skills as I grow so when i got to the lvl I could learn them....now I'm putting barb on back burner and going to play other toons. This issue needs to addressed so people like me can either keep building their toons or switch to another game that actually cares about some of the issues that comes up. And I for one don't want to see the hp increase the same... the demon has an advantage by having the lower increase if they run a charm. They have a 10% extra margin before they tic charm during a battle when they switch forms.
  • Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary
    Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Quit whining like children. But he got this mummy! Hurr durr.


    Demon mystics have the same as sage rez when they get mass rez from morai, I don't recall anyone complaining about this and if they did, nothing changed. Quit acting like a two year old child throwing a tantrum because another kid got a lollipop and you didn't.
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I, and many more, are still waiting for an answer from the PWI team f:despise
    Any info on if that's coming?
    Any comment from the GMs yet? Even if it is being considered?

    See here:
    v4liance wrote: »
    Remember: Just because we haven't replied to a thread yet doesn't mean we haven't seen it.

    A little patience, maybe?
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Quit whining like children. But he got this mummy! Hurr durr.


    Demon mystics have the same as sage rez when they get mass rez from morai, I don't recall anyone complaining about this and if they did, nothing changed. Quit acting like a two year old child throwing a tantrum because another kid got a lollipop and you didn't.

    The mystic skills actually got different abilities. 95% Exp saved vs. 100% Hp upon rezzing, both are good benefits in different situations, also AOE buff isn't a huge deal, so you have to hit the button a few more times than a sage. Whoop. It's usually cast before combat so nothing is really lost strategically. The point being presented here is if the sage res got 95% Exp save AND 100%Hp while also being AOE and the demon just got the 100% HP on rez. I guarantee you there would have been an uproar about that.

    Just because something didn't effect you doesn't mean it's an illegitimate complaint. However, calling others out because they are voicing their complaints over issues that don't concern you is a textbook example of a true to form whiner.
  • Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary
    Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The mystic skills actually got different abilities. 95% Exp saved vs. 100% Hp upon rezzing, both are good benefits in different situations, also AOE buff isn't a huge deal, so you have to hit the button a few more times than a sage. Whoop. It's usually cast before combat so nothing is really lost strategically. The point being presented here is if the sage res got 95% Exp save AND 100%Hp while also being AOE and the demon just got the 100% HP on rez. I guarantee you there would have been an uproar about that.

    Just because something didn't effect you doesn't mean it's an illegitimate complaint. However, calling others out because they are voicing their complaints over issues that don't concern you is a textbook example of a true to form whiner.


    Major facedesk at your post. I'm glad I don't have to run into you on my server.

    My face @ your post
  • Azura - Lost City
    Azura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    My face at Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary:

    The case you gave doesn't even compare. In the 1st place your example only brings the difference between the same skill in different cultivations. Our complaint is about how the devs broke the good balance there used to be between both paths for the untamed. Each has its pros and cons, but both well good in the end.


  • Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary
    Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    My face at Cutie_Belle - Sanctuary:

    The case you gave doesn't even compare. In the 1st place your example only brings the difference between the same skill in different cultivations. Our complaint is about how the devs broke the good balance there used to be between both paths for the untamed. Each has its pros and cons, but both well good in the end.



    Another stupid one.

    Ok I'll note it for you so it's extremely easy to understand.


    ●Resurrect (Sage)
    Protects the target and provides resurrection after death.
    Protection lasts for 30 minutes. EXP loss is reduced by
    88% and they recover 50% of their HP.

    EXP loss is reduced by 95%.


    ○Resurrect (Demon)
    Protects the target and provides resurrection after death.
    Protection lasts for 30 minutes. EXP loss is reduced by
    88%
    and they recover 50% of their HP.

    Recovers 100% HP upon reviving.


    Mass Resurrection (Morai, any culti)
    Casts an enchantment on all party members within 15 meters,
    providing them protection from death for 30 minutes.
    The EXP loss of revived party members is reduced by 95%.
    HP and MP of revived party members is recovered by 50%.



    As you can see a DEMON mystic with mass rez can use the same skill as a SAGE mystic for 95% xp reduction making it the same sort of situation as barbs right now, so yes it does compare. I don't see any QQ about it, it's accepted.

    Sage vs Demon, some skills are going to be better for one cultivation path than another. Demon barbs still have very nice skill perks and combos. Stop whining because the other kid got candy and you didn't.
  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Nope. You can still play a mystic with or without lvl10,sage or demon, resurrect.

    On the other hand, all barbs have to use true form all the time. True form is one the pivot skill that decides wherever a barb is going sage or demon and draws the line between the 2 cultivations and playing styles.

    It's not about fancy candies, its about the core gameplay of barbarian class.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]