Badge and the new skill Arcane Defense

swabian · March 2013

I guess this is mainly meant for Adroit as the resident Wizzy Genie Pro... but I would be happy to hear from any of the Wizzies out there on this. So....

I wonder how needed Badge/Fortify is with the Wiz skill Arcane Defense and the Purge on the R9/R8 Weapons?

I am currently building a Genie and I'm hesitating on putting badge/fortify for this reason. Other than a Holy Sh*t last recourse skill is there a need for either?

I know that the knock back and purify does not leave me completely out of harms way but I can usually kite away after that first hit. I don't as of yet have a purify weapon but hope to some day soon. I'm G-16 but will prolly suck it up and go R9. At first I will get the ring and r9rr Weapon. Then work on the gear which people may question but that is the only way I can afford it atm.

Let me know what you think.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · March 2013

Arcane defense only procs when hit by normal auto attack from a melee source (including pets and summons)

That leaves you high and dry when dealing with casters, archers, or melee that's not dumb as a brick.

As for Purify Spell, while it is indeed incredibly useful, I don't like to wait around as an r9r3 bm stuns me and is starting a skill cycle, or when I get hit with a stunning arrow from an OP archer. Yes, purify spell COULD proc, or I could wind up dead on the ground. I'd rather cast badge and distance shrink away than waste an AD.

swabian · March 2013

Yeah you make a good point, especially with the archers and their stuns. Currently the only class I really struggle with.

Should have thought this through a little more before asking lol....

Adroit - Lost City · March 2013

swabian wrote: »

I guess this is mainly meant for Adroit as the resident Wizzy Genie Pro... but I would be happy to hear from any of the Wizzies out there on this. So....

I wonder how needed Badge/Fortify is with the Wiz skill Arcane Defense and the Purge on the R9/R8 Weapons?

I am currently building a Genie and I'm hesitating on putting badge/fortify for this reason. Other than a Holy Sh*t last recourse skill is there a need for either?

I know that the knock back and purify does not leave me completely out of harms way but I can usually kite away after that first hit. I don't as of yet have a purify weapon but hope to some day soon. I'm G-16 but will prolly suck it up and go R9. At first I will get the ring and r9rr Weapon. Then work on the gear which people may question but that is the only way I can afford it atm.

Let me know what you think.

I'm finding more and more that aps users are giving up on wizards, AD + purify just make aps laughable vs us. The problem is that when people stop using auto attacks, AD generally goes unprocd (and therefore useless) and you are going to want some way to get rid of the stun. If you have a purify weapon and decent gear, it may be enough to just use damage reduction skills and tank the damage until you get a proc, but until you have both of those.. I don't think there is much question that you'd really want badge.

I still have badge on my genie, and atm still have no plans to drop it.. it still bails me out in many situations where nothing else on my genie can (one example is that recently a bm leaped towards me and used blade tornado just as a poorly geared sin tele stunned me and then stood there not hitting me.. and the BT would have definitely killed me if I couldn't badge off the stun and blink out of the way). I also use badge frequently to badge off a stun that is stopping me from finishing off an opponent (I have fought several barbs that like to occult me when they are getting low on hp, and fortify is often times on cd).. you'd be surprised how often I get stunned when an opponent is one hit away from death, and having badge is a really nice thing in those kinds of situations.

I think that anyone that doesn't have a purify wep and good gear should have badge on their genie, and if you do have purify wep + good gear it is more of a gray area but still a great skill to consider. Just my 2 cents

swabian · March 2013

Ty,

I respect your opinion and as such it will be included still.

I am considering Elemental Weakness, so was trying to see if I could save room, but I'm not even sure that it will stack with or be as beneficial as undine....

I'm on the spam side of undine, not the meh side...

Adroit - Lost City · March 2013

swabian wrote: »

Ty,

I respect your opinion and as such it will be included still.

I am considering Elemental Weakness, so was trying to see if I could save room, but I'm not even sure that it will stack with or be as beneficial as undine....

I'm on the spam side of undine, not the meh side...

Do you mean eruption fist or just weakness? I don't see a skill named elemental weakness on ecatomb, but I could be missing it or it might not be up to date (belief is still named faith on ecatomb for example).. and can't log into game atm to check (at school).

I hope that you are convinced that badge is a good choice rather than just going with my suggestion. It would be silly to keep a skill on your genie if you don't use it, and my suggestions are based on my experience pking.. being on different servers with different opponents or just having a different playstyle can change the usefulness of the skills. If you can relate to what I said and it makes sense to you, then sure go ahead and take it, but please don't run around with my identical genie if you think you can better modify it for your own use. Even if you just wanted to try some new stuff, genies are relatively cheap/easy to change around and it can't hurt to try out some different options.

swabian · March 2013

I have an anti CC Genie on my Barb so I'm very familiar with Badge, Fortify and the like so no I"m not following your advice blindly I'm just trying to think outside of the box and try some skills that are not mainstream.

I am considering an anti-chi setup since I'm demon and I have Mo Zun's Taunt so thought I might make a Genie to play with towards that end.

I did see Elemental Weakness on Ecatomb.

Disrupts the target's elemental resistances.
Increases the target's physical defense by 2% of gear value
and reduces the target's elemental resistances by 2% of gear value.
Also reduces the target's movement speed by 30%.
Lasts for 8 secs.

Dexterity: Every 5 Genie Dexterity points increases 1% more Physical Defense.
Dexterity: Every 5 Genie Dexterity points reduces 1% more Elemental Resistance.

Like I said just kinda putting it all together, I've finally gotten used to playing the Wiz class (A huge change from a Barb!) Just trying to wrap my head around the possibilities.

I truly do appreciate your input as I feel like you are one of the most knowledgeable Wizzies ingame!

So Thanks!

Adroit - Lost City · March 2013

swabian wrote: »

I have an anti CC Genie on my Barb so I'm very familiar with Badge, Fortify and the like so no I"m not following your advice blindly I'm just trying to think outside of the box and try some skills that are not mainstream.

I am considering an anti-chi setup since I'm demon and I have Mo Zun's Taunt so thought I might make a Genie to play with towards that end.

I did see Elemental Weakness on Ecatomb.

Disrupts the target's elemental resistances.
Increases the target's physical defense by 2% of gear value
and reduces the target's elemental resistances by 2% of gear value.
Also reduces the target's movement speed by 30%.
Lasts for 8 secs.

Dexterity: Every 5 Genie Dexterity points increases 1% more Physical Defense.
Dexterity: Every 5 Genie Dexterity points reduces 1% more Elemental Resistance.

Like I said just kinda putting it all together, I've finally gotten used to playing the Wiz class (A huge change from a Barb!) Just trying to wrap my head around the possibilities.

I truly do appreciate your input as I feel like you are one of the most knowledgeable Wizzies ingame!

So Thanks!

Oh, yeah I missed it. Eeek 85-112 energy.. do you know if it stacks with undine? Is there a reason you are considering this skill over spark (possibly another description error)? Spark seems to be the obvious choice for us, low cost with a huge benefit.. this one seems hardly comparable.

I'm not sure how effective an anti-chi setup would be as a wiz, I've always thought of anti-chi skills as being more of a support role (good for characters that are meant to be annoying to kill but don't kill very well themselves.. i.e. vit barbs, bms, venos as a few examples), where as a wiz we kill very well and probably take their chi more effectively by just killing an opponent. When I go out in group pvp, I basically get to choose whoever I want to pick off.. unless you were fighting very undergeared, I find it hard to imagine many situations where using genie energy to take chi would be a good idea.

Fissile - Archosaur · March 2013

IMHO If you have purify along with decent refines on your armor then you probably don't need both fortify and badge.

I wouldn't recommend using elemental weakness even though it does stack with other magic defense debuffs. (Elemental weakness has its own status icon called 'elemental weakness' so it will stack with undine and elemental seal. The warsong mobs in the wood path use this skill on you if you.) Increasing your opponent's physical resistance means that you may be making your teammates less effective against them. I've only seen it used a few times and that was mostly against physical immune things in PvE (in nirvana and AEU).

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maybe in TW/NW if you have a LOT of caster power hammering on a barb? But yeah, even then, sparking/eping/undining should be enough unless you're so sure you can get those from someone else that you need to stack on an extra buff for ****s and gigs.

swabian · March 2013

Well I'm working on refines for the G16 gear I have and as such my HP is very low still. I"m trying to think of ways to get in, kill and gtfo before I'm killed.

That's the main reason why I was thinking if Ele. Weakness stacks it might be to my advantage to use it with Undine. I'm by no means a one shotter but can kill most (not Barbs) with a few hits.

I know full well that kiting is my best friend and have a shoot and move rule that works well for me. I try to hit and move as quickly as possible to save my butt.

I'm using my Wiz in NW cuz I"m tired of the big GIANT bullseye on my Barb. Flag or not its a continual gankfest on Barbs in there. Even though my Wiz is not geared as well as my Barb (R9r mostly going for R9rr) its a hell of a lot more fun!

So with low refines and HP I'm looking for creative solutions.

I run with a great team in NW so the Ele. Weakness will benefit us all and if it stacks with Undine all the better. I'm by no means the big hitter of the group so it seems to me that Ele. Weakness might really help out my squad.

Man, I"m reading this and realizing I"m jumping all over the place lmfao..... But anyways thank you all for you input! Off to get some coffee....

Adroit - Lost City · March 2013

swabian wrote: »

Well I'm working on refines for the G16 gear I have and as such my HP is very low still. I"m trying to think of ways to get in, kill and gtfo before I'm killed.

That's the main reason why I was thinking if Ele. Weakness stacks it might be to my advantage to use it with Undine. I'm by no means a one shotter but can kill most (not Barbs) with a few hits.

I know full well that kiting is my best friend and have a shoot and move rule that works well for me. I try to hit and move as quickly as possible to save my butt.

I'm using my Wiz in NW cuz I"m tired of the big GIANT bullseye on my Barb. Flag or not its a continual gankfest on Barbs in there. Even though my Wiz is not geared as well as my Barb (R9r mostly going for R9rr) its a hell of a lot more fun!

So with low refines and HP I'm looking for creative solutions.

I run with a great team in NW so the Ele. Weakness will benefit us all and if it stacks with Undine all the better. I'm by no means the big hitter of the group so it seems to me that Ele. Weakness might really help out my squad.

Man, I"m reading this and realizing I"m jumping all over the place lmfao..... But anyways thank you all for you input! Off to get some coffee....

The best way I've found to jump in, get a kill and get out is definitely genie spark. The amp on spark is ridiculously good.. there really is no other comparable debuff in game (low cost, low cooldown, instant, huge effect.. and we are the only ones that can benefit from it

). Elemental weakness just seems far too costly for the effect imo, I think you'd be better off using extreme poison to amp for your team.. which you could use much more frequently and without it monopolizing all of your genie energy. Similar to how I feel almost naked in pvp without 2 sparks, I am really uncomfortable when I'm out of genie energy.. and really try to avoid high energy skills unless they are absolutely necessary (which I don't really think elemental weakness is).

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · March 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The best way I've found to jump in, get a kill and get out is definitely genie spark. The amp on spark is ridiculously good.. there really is no other comparable debuff in game (low cost, low cooldown, instant, huge effect.. and we are the only ones that can benefit from it ). Elemental weakness just seems far too costly for the effect imo, I think you'd be better off using extreme poison to amp for your team.. which you could use much more frequently and without it monopolizing all of your genie energy. Similar to how I feel almost naked in pvp without 2 sparks, I am really uncomfortable when I'm out of genie energy.. and really try to avoid high energy skills unless they are absolutely necessary (which I don't really think elemental weakness is).

EP also helps the physical dd in your squad/nation, while elemental weakness will actually make it harder for them to help. Yes, we all like getting the kill credit, but if you wanna monopolize that go with spark, if you want to help your squad don't nerf your sins, bms and barbs (i exclude archers and seekers since they have elemental attacks, but if they're not paying attention you could **** them over too)

taringa181 · April 2013

wait wait wait first drop ele weakness cause it reduces ele res by gear value... not flat ele res then its deftly a dead giveaway even more if target is buffed

then wow eruption fist.. i ve never considered it but could be interesting to check if that debuff has the same icon of undine debuff or f.e. fortify/cleric debuff

if its the second option here we have a new possible combo undine->spark->fist

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

taringa181 wrote: »

wait wait wait first drop ele weakness cause it reduces ele res by gear value... not flat ele res then its deftly a dead giveaway even more if target is buffed

then wow eruption fist.. i ve never considered it but could be interesting to check if that debuff has the same icon of undine debuff or f.e. fortify/cleric debuff

if its the second option here we have a new possible combo undine->spark->fist

As I see it there are 2 options for genie damage debuff chains (if you choose to use 2 genie skills versus sticking to just spark) ep->undine->spark (henceforth referred to as standard chain) and your suggested undine->spark->ef (henceforth referred to as ef chain). I'm intentionally leaving out Elemental Weakness since we've already discussed the, well, weaknesses with that skill.

I see several problems with the ef chain:

EF is MUCH costlier than ep, it costs 80 energy on a level 100 genie and 79 on a level 105. Compare that to the 50 that ep costs. If you run a mag/vit genie that's not horrible, but if you want to take advantage of spark you probably have at least some dex, meaning you will take an extra 10-15 seconds (10 at 100 magic, 15 at 50) recharging to get back that energy. That's on top of the fact that you have to spend so much for either combo (standard is 112, ef is 141-142, depending)

EF is MUCH shorter than ep. It lasts for 4 seconds. That means you can only use divine pyro once with both debuffs in effect, even with sutra going (1 second cast+3 second cooldown, even if you time it perfectly there's no way to get it off twice) EP, on the other hand, lasts 6+ seconds. If you have a 100 dex genie you get 16 seconds. That's a lot of time for 20% more damage, especially if you have a couple other people on the target.

As with the problem with Elemental Weakness, the ef chain only helps casters. While casters obviously are super pro and awesome and why would someone want to be anything else, EP does amp damage for EVERYONE rather than just us. While, unlike EW, EF doesn't act as a detriment to phys dd, it doesn't help them either. EP, however, helps everyone (and for longer as stated above)

taringa181 · April 2013

u said it right
it will be situational i guess, ep should be used on has and ef on aas...

tho reducing taget elemental resistance from even 500-1000 (already reduced from undine spark) to a 0-50 value, it will have a return on damage of like 100% more damage (compared to a flat 20% more from ep)

swabian · April 2013

Ok, so then the next question is.....

How do we work Ice Prison into a chain to take advantage of the 30% magic damage boost?
Does the Ice Prison effect pulse every three seconds (for 12 seconds) as well? Or is it a one time shot and done till the skill has run its coarse?
The effect only lasts two seconds so you would be lucky to get the timing right....

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

swabian wrote: »

Ok, so then the next question is.....

How do we work Ice Prison into a chain to take advantage of the 30% magic damage boost?
Does the Ice Prison effect pulse every three seconds (for 12 seconds) as well? Or is it a one time shot and done till the skill has run its coarse?
The effect only lasts two seconds so you would be lucky to get the timing right....

when you cast ice prison, it sends out 4 pulses (3 seconds apart) that stun/amp for 2 seconds each.. it is surprisingly good at locking somebody up, unless someone can use an anti stun skill in that 1 second gap they are generally forced to apoth/genie to survive/get out. I really like to tactical reversion somebody, cast ice prison and go to the spot that tactical reversion brings them to.. it's a fantastic skill if you can catch them with it :P

taringa181 · April 2013

also is 130% amp if i am not wrong that makes TONS OF DAMAGE b:chuckle thats a really underrated skill

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

There are a lot of situations where Ice Prison is unbelievable. Really any (pvp) situation where you would want a bm to run in and hf, ice prison is awesome (assuming you have the ability to survive it, apoth can be nice depending on what you're doing.

In TW I've found it really helpful for when what you have going on just isn't cutting it for the catas, especially if they're clustered. If you can get full chi, run in, IG, IP, bids and you have one or two other moderately geared people attacking as well you should be able to do massive amounts damage. If you can actually get someone to HF then even moreso. (Ice prison DB can be nice too for this)

It's also nice in general when someone is trying to be a smartass and isn't letting you kite him. Suddenly that bm that's trying to stun hf you is basically getting stun hfed just by standing within 12 meters of you, and you can do whatever you want in the mean time.

swabian · April 2013

So does Ice Prison "follow" you? Meaning that I am the center of the skill activating and when I move it goes with for 12 seconds? ( I have the skill but no coin to learn it yet...QQ) Cuz if that's the case, suddenly I'm getting my **** in gear, learning the skill and changing my tactics in TW!!!

I have "admirers" in NW all the time that will follow me until they can kill me so this is a game changer for me there. I"m still learning some of the neat tricks that we have as Wizzies and this would be one of them!

taringa181 · April 2013

yes it does...

i think a valid combo for mass pvp would be fortify ig leap in a group ice prison sage db frenzy

THAT'S TONS OF DAMAGE

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

Yes, say you're in TW and you cast it at undine (28m) range on a cata from behind a tower, first pulse goes off there and is dead, 3 more to go. Sage/Demon distance shrink to where the catas are, so you're either 2m past it or 3m in front of it, either way in range. Set up DB, a pulse will go off around while you're setting it. Since both DB and IP go off every 3 seconds, if they're properly timed the first 3 hits of db will be with an ice prison chance (it doesn't always effect people remember)

Alternatively, holy pathing and fortify-iging while running into a group with full chi, ice prison->phoenix(or anything else for chi but that one actually hits fairly hard and very fast)->BIDS (or BT depending on your preference) has got me 40-50k hits on r9 cata barbs.

Also, be sure to say when you're using it the same as you'd want on an amp/purge/hf/etc so that the rest of your squad can take advantage of it too.

It can also be nice for when there's a big fight over a flag in nw to do either of those combos, it tends to clear the area pretty fast.

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

taringa181 wrote: »

also is 130% amp if i am not wrong that makes TONS OF DAMAGE b:chuckle thats a really underrated skill

You do 130% of your normal damage, which is a 30% amp. Just like extreme poison, it is a 20% amp but you do 120% of your normal damage. Also I generally don't need to ironguard when I use IP.. 80% of everything around me is locked up from ice prison.. I don't think you should be automatically wasting your apoth unless there is a good reason to do so (and running into a group of people isn't that dangerous if they are all stunned :P)

taringa181 · April 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You do 130% of your normal damage, which is a 30% amp. Just like extreme poison, it is a 20% amp but you do 120% of your normal damage. Also I generally don't need to ironguard when I use IP.. 80% of everything around me is locked up from ice prison.. I don't think you should be automatically wasting your apoth unless there is a good reason to do so (and running into a group of people isn't that dangerous if they are all stunned :P)

well i am not sure of the %, it should be 30% magic amp not 130% magic amp mhhhh this should need damage tests i guess

well that sage db ice prison would be cool on massive groups in tw @ xstals this is why ig is needed cause u are going into a big group and generally that needs apo sustain

also ice prison lasts same time of an IG what a luck :> and ive already managed to kill an entire faction like this (r9r3s in BBs included and clerics included themselves)

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You do 130% of your normal damage, which is a 30% amp. Just like extreme poison, it is a 20% amp but you do 120% of your normal damage. Also I generally don't need to ironguard when I use IP.. 80% of everything around me is locked up from ice prison.. I don't think you should be automatically wasting your apoth unless there is a good reason to do so (and running into a group of people isn't that dangerous if they are all stunned :P)

I do it to avoid the multiple support people who arent right next to me (IE archers b:surrender). I'd rather not get killed or knocked out of db/bids, something I've experienced more than once

Saeidon - Heavens Tear · April 2013

On the original post:

I still think badge is very important, mostly for archers, some sins and major group situations.
If a +12 S3 archer stunning arrows, I would definitely not be excited about waiting and hoping something procs because even if it does, I might die anyway.
If a bm stuns and a load of people are lining up to assist on him, even if it procs first hit, I might already be dead from a flurry of attacks.
I'm probably less concerned about fortify now. I think its incredible still but not AS important.

I quit the game for over a year, coming back now and refiguring my genie at the moment.

I'm currently playing around with one that has... holy path, AD, Expel, Badge, Spark, Frenzy, Cloud Erupt. (Its not the genie I want to finish with, Im just experimenting atm)
Even as full S3R9 I find that badge is one of my most used skils (and I don't durrspam it just because a random bm stunned me with no backup).

taringa181 · April 2013

badge is no brainer... most of all cause of psys

swabian · April 2013

Ok, so I guess I'm gonna do the following on my Dex. Genie for the time being...

Spark
Extreme Poison
Holy Path
Badge of Courage
Fortify

Seems that I can't go wrong with these skills, now if I could just get lucky and make a damn decent genie.....

Thank you all very much for all the input!

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

Judging from your genie, I'm guessing you don't have amazing gear, or you'd probably have a better one.

While all of those skills are definitely good skills for a wiz to have, it seems like you're focusing more heavily on damage amps for enemies than damage reductions on you. I see you do have fortify and badge, which are both good skills to have on a genie, but neither provides immediate save my *** status (damage reduction/full immunity). I'd encourage you to consider putting something for survivability in lieu of extreme poison, since you already have spark there and you can expect a lot of your allies to have extreme poison on genies anyway (plus spark is a hell of a lot more effective). While extreme poison is great for taking down strong targets, taking advantage of it mandates being alive.

Absolute domain is expensive but will save your ***... unless it's slow to go off, it also has a 3 minute cooldown. Wind shield is spammable and cheep, but if you're getting ganked probably won't help too too much. Aquaflame Armor has been discussed ad nauseum in the other genie thread but you need a good deal of survivability before it's worth it. I haven't tested AFA myself but it seems like a good option and will be switching to it pretty soon, at which point I'll be able to give a more educated assessment.

swabian · April 2013

Well gear is G16 but with low refines +4 and no shards atm. My buffed HP is only 7k atm (includes Barb buffs) so I need to take down quick or I don't have a shot at living. Archers just own me right now not much I can do there. I"ve tried every trick in the book between apo, genie skills and defense charms and I just get one shot by the R9rr's out there and given my low HP and Pdef its not a surprise. I'm just trying to make the best of it until I can refine and shard better.

I want to go R9 but its just not feasible atm. I will have to wait it out and do it down the road. I have a barb that is about to R9rr so he is first priority. The sad thing is I don't even really like playing him right now, not since I got my Wiz lvl'd.

Aquaflame is not a good skill for me as it really doesn't add much survivability anyway. I tried it and it did minor improvements not worth it at this point for me imo.

I will try and work with AD but it may not be worth it until again, I refine and shard.... but tyvm for your input!

Badge and the new skill Arcane Defense

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