Base Defense or +Def. Levels?

KitsuneBlood - Archosaur
KitsuneBlood - Archosaur Posts: 11 Arc User
edited April 2013 in Venomancer
I'm still trying to debate whether I want to keep my venomancer on the AA path or switch to a heavy/arcane build. I like the higher magic attack and pet healing, but I want more survivability. I was thinking ha/aa would help there, but with highly refined rank ix gear its possible to have high hp and decent defense while still having the magic attack. Ha/aa venos can still have more defense however, but lack attack and defense levels.

So, should I go with the rank ix endgame plan and take slightly lower defense (~11k vs ~20k for ha venos) with high defense levels or go with higher defense from HA and try to find attack levels from somewhere else?

Here is an example I made of a rank ix veno. Ignore the robe lol, I was too lazy to change it. (That's the robe I use now, minus the refines and shards =P).

http://pwcalc.com/5eb7a6c647bf0c5e

Also since I don't have an example of a ha/aa veno can someone give me a good pwcalc link to one? I know I've seen some with around 19-20k defense and decent attack but can't seem to find them again.

Edit: http://pwcalc.com/6ab34a56ce192cb1 updated slightly
Post edited by KitsuneBlood - Archosaur on

Comments

  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »
    I'm still trying to debate whether I want to keep my venomancer on the AA path or switch to a heavy/arcane build. I like the higher magic attack and pet healing, but I want more survivability.

    Some would tell you that best defense is a great offense, but if you really want to survive: just stay in Save Zone.

    Every time I squad an HA veno I regret it.
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  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Just go rank 9 and don't put dots in your weapon. That's a stupid thing to do
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  • dupethefile
    dupethefile Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »
    I'm still trying to debate whether I want to keep my venomancer on the AA path or switch to a heavy/arcane build. I like the higher magic attack and pet healing, but I want more survivability. I was thinking ha/aa would help there, but with highly refined rank ix gear its possible to have high hp and decent defense while still having the magic attack. Ha/aa venos can still have more defense however, but lack attack and defense levels.

    So, should I go with the rank ix endgame plan and take slightly lower defense (~11k vs ~20k for ha venos) with high defense levels or go with higher defense from HA and try to find attack levels from somewhere else?

    Here is an example I made of a rank ix veno. Ignore the robe lol, I was too lazy to change it. (That's the robe I use now, minus the refines and shards =P).

    http://pwcalc.com/5eb7a6c647bf0c5e

    Also since I don't have an example of a ha/aa veno can someone give me a good pwcalc link to one? I know I've seen some with around 19-20k defense and decent attack but can't seem to find them again.

    My suggestion: http://pwcalc.com/6c4bd39ea9c2b5b6
  • Pelli - Dreamweaver
    Pelli - Dreamweaver Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    Some would tell you that best defense is a great offense, but if you really want to survive: just stay in Save Zone.

    Every time I squad an HA veno I regret it.

    You obviously haven't met with foxyface, haven't you? xD
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  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    With the amount of money it'd take to full +12 that ****, you might as well go r9rr.
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  • KitsuneBlood - Archosaur
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Some would tell you that best defense is a great offense, but if you really want to survive: just stay in Save Zone.

    Every time I squad an HA veno I regret it.
    Um, thanks?
    Just go rank 9 and don't put dots in your weapon. That's a stupid thing to do
    Well that was easy. lol. So I guess attack shards are better?
    My suggestion: http://pwcalc.com/6c4bd39ea9c2b5b6
    Not bad but loses a lot of physical attack. I don't use fox form often but when I do I'd like to do some damage too. I don't know if that small increase in defense stats is worth losing 2k physical attack. But thanks for the advice. EDIT: Nvm, you just did something weird by adding cleric buffs and not turning on veno melee mastery and fox form.

    Btw can you really have two Rings of Trauma?
    With the amount of money it'd take to full +12 that ****, you might as well go r9rr.
    Sorry don't know the acronym. What is this rrr9 shiat people keep talking about? What's the diff?
  • WnbTank - Archosaur
    WnbTank - Archosaur Posts: 1,472 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur wrote: »

    Btw can you really have two Rings of Trauma?

    Sorry don't know the acronym. What is this rrr9 shiat people keep talking about? What's the diff?

    No you cant. Least I heard the ones who NPCd their R9 sets couldnt get new one as you get R9 gear trough quest. After its done its done, which sucks for people who got **** and "****" with R9 sets NPCd.

    R999 means the gear on forges, which you can find inside Lunar & Warsong. Ultimately its R9 third cast, there is also 2nd cast between. There is few ways of expressing this in this community, one is R9 -> R99 ->R999, one is R9 -> R92nd -> R93rd, another R9 or R9T1 -> R9T2 -> R9T3 where T = tier I believe.

    But really, you should visit R999 forges inside warsong, the ones next to where you start the instance. And the R99 forge near General Summers, cant remember exactly where there it was though.

    Edit: Also, use R9 or whatever recast belt you want on pwicalc. I wondered the low attack levels, found out you used some weird belt, which wasnt part of R9 set bonus. I changed the belt w/o doing other gear changes, added some buffs though.
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  • KitsuneBlood - Archosaur
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I've seen the ones in warsong I think... I'll have to look again though. Didn't really pay attention to the differences.

    Weird it doesn't let you refine that belt though.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    My current heavy set, self buffed

    (Not quite right, some of the equip adds are still wrong but I'm out of time this morning to fiddle with it)
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  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    My current heavy set, self buffed

    (Not quite right, some of the equip adds are still wrong but I'm out of time this morning to fiddle with it)

    for pve almost any build works...here is my current set...b:bye
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • BlackRapture - Raging Tide
    BlackRapture - Raging Tide Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    This is my build http://pwcalc.com/95d2060946cc70ec

    I'm still farming and refining stuff, but even so, I'm not easy to kill. Unless you nuke me with r9+10 arcanes. My damage? Sure, could be better. I'm debating between warsoul recasted, and rank nine's t3. I'm not even on the playing field in nw, but I still rack up on kills. Skill is equal to good gear in terms of effectiveness. You need both to come out on top.

    As far as sharding goes, I prefer hp/vit shards over def/def lvl shards. Why? Much cheaper, still effective. Rest assured, fully sharding in +2 def lvls is more effective, but good luck affording all those shards xD
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  • KitsuneBlood - Archosaur
    KitsuneBlood - Archosaur Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Nice build.

    On my plan: It was only an endgame plan, I knew it would be expensive, but yeah, I just realized exactly how expensive r9 is, and that's not counting the recasts if I went 2nd or 3rd recast. I might have to do some rethinking. I don't pvp really atm, I just want the option so that when I am satisfied with my gear (and have it bound lol) I can. My concern right now is more for pve survivability, especially against AOEs that my pet can't protect me against.

    So a question for heavy venos... can you still do tt squad mode solo? How does it work for you? What level and what tt's can you do? What about bosses like soul banisher?
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I don't do much TT and don't really solo it, but I do tank it on occasion.

    1-x squad is mostly no problem as a heavy 101 veno, with the exception of 1-2/1-3 Soulbanisher where I bring a cleric or mystic alt for healing during AOE, and he still occasionally 2-shots a herc if he rolls high on both the magic and melee hits before AOE.

    2-1 isn't much of a problem, with the exception of Wurlord of course. For him I lure and kill the weak clones, then go full channeling gear (I think I have about -36%) and tank the "real" ones with either herc or base protect buffed eldergoth. Still a chance for a two-shot on the herc, I haven't run the math on a 100 eldergoth with protect but not blessing to see if it can be one shot if Wurlord rolls high on the magic attack. (Base vault is currently level 4, it's going to be a while before I have access to the other base pet scrolls.)

    2-2 I haven't run recently, but Fataliqua, Feng and Soulripper are all doable. Cosmoforce is pretty much non-soloable I believe, and I'm not sure about Wurlord. Astralwalker can be done by walking up the chain after summoning herc, and not using reflect buff but I haven't successfully done this (always end up messing up.)

    2-3's about the same, with the addition of Ancient Evil to the "haven't tried and not likely to" list.

    3-1 medium, Coredash, Nemen and Deathflow aren't a problem. I haven't done solo so I don't know if I could kill Djinscream quick enough. I haven't tried the high mode bosses (Dark Colluseast and Steelation) and believe them to be unsoloable.

    Same pretty much goes for 3-2 and 3-3, with only Nemen being a challenge at the higher levels.

    As for while I was leveling up... could do Chintien at 60, needed help healing herc on Drummer until I had the 63 heal. The other easy bosses I could do as soon as or even before I could open the instance.
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  • Artymis - Dreamweaver
    Artymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    um, hello. i read the first few posts to this thread and then i skimmed. it seems like a lot of people shared their build without really answering the thread's question. but again, i didn't really read posts.

    firstly, if you're going to go rank 9, i'm not sure why you aren't aiming for third cast. but with this aside, HA is a viable build option as you're aware of. however, i myself am a third cast veno. and i did think to myself the other day, i have no regrets - i really enjoy being AA again. i used to be LA and my other veno is HA. edit: and i will also comment, getting first cast is the hardest part to being r9. r9r is pretty easy if you do well in nw, and you can farm for third cast during the week. it took me about 1 month to do everything and i hadn't had plans to go r9r or even r9rr before nw came out - and i started doing nw 3 weeks after everyone else.

    it is possible to get near to that 20k pdef as an arcane btw. let me show you: http://pwcalc.com/f886fd9c08182d88

    granted, it will be in fox form but 15k as a hume i think it is very nice as arcane. and do notice my pieces are only +10 while yours are +12 first cast. if we altered the build to do +12, it would be very pretty. http://pwcalc.com/ad7f9c7ad356f2d1 but for me, that will never happen and i will always be at +10 xD

    and for sharding, let me quote you what a dear friend said to me when i considered some things.

    "Getting just 1 nirvana part won't give you set bonus, which is main reason why nirvana is so nice. So either both or no nirvana. Since you're veno i'd suggest Matchless and Ence.
    Forget about DoTs, you aren't sin.
    Vit stones aren't worth the prices compared to citrines (for veno) they only give you 5 hp more and some tiny defence and cost like 15mil more each.
    You won't need garnets if you have well refined cube neck and pdef ring.

    Also a little point about refining
    Firstly since you're aiming at +12, sky cover as ring.

    Main thing: refine cost effectively. So the higher hp things first.
    First should be cape. It refines as LA, so gives most HP. Then r9, then hat last. Cube neck wherever, you kinda have to get one first though. I advise farming it. I see you haven't got a decent cape yet. So I might suggest getting matchless wings as the next thing, since oceans aren't on sale anyway. +7 everything first, then go with each thing right to 10 before moving onto the next. Shard cit gems or jades (or both). Pure jades is probably best, obviously.
    If money is an issue, think carefully about each next step, as to what gives most survivability. I'd say work on cape and neck first, personally, since orbs aren't on sale."

    as you can see, i didn't listen to him about the ence scar and matchless combo and jades are too overpriced for me. as third cast though, i do have a nice increase on the def levels compared to being first cast :)


    this however is my friend's HA build: http://pwcalc.com/3e4cba0d767b8a01
    her at +12: http://pwcalc.com/3e4cba0d767b8a01

    the builds have the same buffs and we are both demon venos so she wouldn't get the sage pdef inc but this i think proves that AA is the better way to go as firstly i do have the higher matk and ele resist (not by much) and i also think that in fox, being at 20k pdef is so glamourous. it wouldn't matter to me that she has a few extra k pdef more than me. she will have the higher hp than me but man, 20k hp for anyone is epic \O/ (well, uh, besides barbs b:chuckle)

    i think then it is up to you as what you want more. i have shared my thoughts and have also proven that HA is very nice too. but i still do prefer the AA to HA. i hope this will help you in your decision b:kiss b:cute
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Artymis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Vit stones aren't worth the prices compared to citrines (for veno) they only give you 5 hp more and some tiny defence and cost like 15mil more each.
    You won't need garnets if you have well refined cube neck and pdef ring.

    If you have the money, Vitality stones are still a better option for Venomancers over Citrine Gems. The difference is small but when you consider a full Vit. Stone build then the difference grows bigger and compared to a full Citrine Gem (regardless of ornament refinement level) the player will higher both physical defence and magic defence.

    You have an increase in three areas (HP, pdef, mdef) all in one type of shard.

    Anyway, just wanted to throw my opinion on this (not bashing or judging your choices). b:surrender If I was serious about endgame sharding I'd probably wait and save money to pay the extra coin for them.
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  • Artymis - Dreamweaver
    Artymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    yes, you are right, vit stones are technically better as a full vit stone build, but much more expensive as my friend wrote "not worth the prices". for this, i find it better for me to just do cits and garnets. and although stone of the brutes aren't in pwi,

    [AA: http://pwcalc.com/a7b408aebe5a00b6

    HA:http://pwcalc.com/45341da42828b2d1
    (the HA, who was only citrine, did increase both on pdef and mdef)]

    it was to emphasize and point out that the pdef is 624 points lower. which when we switch to fox, although the full vit does hit 20k, the garnet/citrine is higher. furthermore, if we did simply primeval, the difference would increase significantly so let's do so.

    AA: http://pwcalc.com/13f580a093433e1c :(
    a -1624 pdef difference T___T

    HA: http://pwcalc.com/9a00bc892b005412 :)

    the HA did improve a little bit on mdef/pdef+ and hp+ with the primeval stones, (not saying to use them as i can't recall prices but whichever is cheaper stone of savant or these) but the AA, i really do think sticking with the citrine/garnet combo is more beneficial as it only increased mdef (which we already got alot of) and hp.

    so i think half citrine and half garnet, as AA, would be best if one is looking to max out the pdef and still retain high hp. and certainly a cheaper alternative.

    ps - i can tell the difference between a personal attack and a good suggestion, yours falling in the latter rather than the former b:mischievous
  • Cody__Tylor - Heavens Tear
    Cody__Tylor - Heavens Tear Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Disregard tweak's comment on HA venoes (especially decent players), he is a sad excuse of a player who dies often. Apparently he is biased towards the other half side of venoes that has a myraid rainbow combo (P.DEF debuff to 0) and fox form melee with occult ice combo. It has more survivalbility and much more damage (along with stronger p.def debuffs than you do in human form even if you are using a magic weapon) the only thing you have to be up close. Also, offense is no good if you're dead, and having deadweights is pointless.

    Anyway, I'd suggest both, have full HA or AA, not a good idea to use two different sets at endgame levels IMHO you should get full benefits from the set instead. So get both balanced of overall defense and defense levels as you can :)
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  • Pantherlilie - Archosaur
    Pantherlilie - Archosaur Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    My current heavy set, self buffed

    (Not quite right, some of the equip adds are still wrong but I'm out of time this morning to fiddle with it)

    man at 101 i seriously hope my HA veno doesnt have that horrid of a p.def. My veno is 83 and has 10k unbuffed p.def. I know what you were going for, you trying to keep magic damage while having survival. But if you want to go HA i think you need to focus more on strength and not magic. If you focus on magic you gimp your fox damage and if you dont use fox to attack then i dont think you should even use an HA veno. my venos stats are 21 vit, 225 str, 188 magic, and 50 dex and she does just fine in pvp and pve.

    her def is good enough to survive most any physical attack near level and because she survives so long it really doesnt matter if she packs a punch. Plus i hit sht tons harder than other HA venos of my level and they can hardly touch me.
  • Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver Posts: 468 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    HA venos are like one shoots with legs and fluffy tails to any descent caster b:laugh
  • Pantherlilie - Archosaur
    Pantherlilie - Archosaur Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    HA venos are like one shoots with legs and fluffy tails to any descent caster b:laugh


    I take it you have never seen a good HA veno. Mind you HA venos dont have the best magic def but a good one wont get one shotted by anything all that often.
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    HA venos are like one shoots with legs and fluffy tails to any descent caster b:laugh

    wat

    not even using G16 neck/belt
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  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Alex_Gantz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    HA venos are like one shoots with legs and fluffy tails to any descent caster b:laugh

    dont know if they are 1shots but anyone with a bit of experience and knowledge about venos will have an easy time...
    the magic damage is rather good...
    the physical damage can't compare to dex classes...

    so how are they gonna beat someone who is geared to fight high dps/dph+crit+zerk physical damage classes?
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Kiszmet - Heavens Tear
    Kiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Wow, quite a bit of HA veno hate here b:surrender

    At the OP, its not a simple matter of deciding whether you want HA or AA for your veno. If you intend to continue using magic attacks with your veno then just roll R9 or stay AA, you'll be happier in the long run as R93 with high refines has good survivalbilty and damage.

    To answer your question HA survivability is excellent. Is it better than R9 with shards/refines? Well that depends on your preferred play style. Yes we can be one shot by R93 +12 psychics and wizards but many AAs can be zerked and APSed just as easily. I find the most effective HA build is an assault fox build which focuses on STR and takes only enough MAG to equip an S3 or R8 / R9 weapon (swords are my preference but patakas work too). Naturally this is a completely different playstyle then what many venos are used to and takes time and practice to learn the ins and outs of it.

    If you want to equip HA just for the phys resistance I would recommend against it, if you want to equip HA to be a foxy fighter then go ahead and go for it. As for fighting high dex, zerc, crit, dps, phys classes, there are many ways even w/o bramble/barrier and I could create a whole thread on the strategies. Just know it can be done and I even take down archers from time to time despite their high evade.

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