The Path to Endgame - Opinions Please!

Tsyn - Raging Tide · March 2013

Hey everyone! Just wanted a couple opinions on how to proceed with my sin.
My current gear goal for endgame, is, obviously, Full R9s3, sage. However, I see two ways to get there:

A: Go demon, get G13 daggers, farm tome, farm G16 daggers, farm full R9 third cast, possibly get to 105, switch to sage.

B: Go sage, get G13 daggers, farm tome, farm full R9 third cast, 105, etc.

The difference is, having rolled on a new server, I have no Pangu and equipment, so I'll have to farm/merchant my gear. The demon path is probably going to be easier in both farming and getting to 105, but the sage path is more simplistic, if not more difficult to farm with.... I'd like your opinions on how I should farm my R9. XD

Deadalus - Harshlands · March 2013

For PvE, Demon is better in every possible aspect you can imagine.

Sure, Sage has its good sides like bloodpaint, tidal protection or power dash, but i would say, that when you go demon, you can at a special point (like g13 dagger, g15/16 with 2x int) switch gear around, replacing the g12 TT99 stuff you have and place sth better there like warsong belt, cube neck or go G15 nirvana on boots and wrists.

When you want to farm from the scratch, i would also say, that demon is better, because having higher aps is cheaper and this increases your ability to farm faster.

In PvP, sage is better, because it hits harder and has tidal protection (actually this is the biggest "GO SAGE" point, you can have in my opinion) but i guess you go pvp, when you are 105 b:chuckle

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2013

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

In PvP, sage is better, because it hits harder

That's a myth. Sage mastery will add about 2-3% dph and I assume you're saying sage hits harder because you'll have CotD on. 5 attack levels on an endgame r9t3 sins with blessing and chill is nothing. Its around 2% over demon. So the total boost to sages dph is around 4.5%. That's obviously less than the 40% rage damage boost that demon's get on crits, making them the harder hitters.

The real selling points of sages is Tidal Protection, and chi management. Sages do really well punching it out in pk and are able to stand there and use RDS and Tackling Slash without dieing in the process because of their Tidal Protection and spark damage reduction. This means they can stay triple sparked a huge % of the time in pvp.

I also just think Sage for PvP is a bit of a hipster trend because a few R9t3+12 JoSD sins are making it popular, where its gear more than culti or skill.

...

Anyways, I was gonna suggest making 2 sins on the same account. Twice the BHs, raise one as a buff alt of another account. Then I realized theis means getting 200k rep for a second character. Demon sins do much better damage dd with cheaper gear because of aps spark, while sage sins survive much better with cheaper gear because they require less refines. So you'd be able to cheaply gear one sin, but still have to refine two sets of gear. Guess its not a great idea, really.

opkossy · March 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for our hardest hitting skill, it becomes Earthen Rift around G15 daggers (before then its Slipstream), which is 430% instead of sages 400% so demon's win there, too.

Sage is the one with the higher boost on Rift. Demon gets +range. b:chuckle

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

Sage is the one with the higher boost on Rift. Demon gets +range. b:chuckle

Bah, you're right. For some reason I thought demon's got both, lol. I mean, we're not sage barbs were we get our own culti skills and demon's.

I'll edit. Point still stands though.

opkossy · March 2013

Silly barbs and their panda issues. :P

I was sage before it became the hip new thing to do but I'm more than willing to admit that Demon is gonna have higher damage potential in both DPH and DPS from the spark and wolf emblem alone before we even look at other options.

But sage suited how I liked playing more and sage tidal is my best friend. b:chuckle

Deadalus - Harshlands · March 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's a myth. Sage mastery will add about 2-3% dph and I assume you're saying sage hits harder because you'll have CotD on. 5 attack levels on an endgame r9t3 sins with blessing and chill is nothing. Its around 2% over demon. So the total boost to sages dph is around 4.5%. That's obviously less than the 40% rage damage boost that demon's get on crits, making them the harder hitters. As for our hardest hitting skill, it becomes Earthen Rift around G15 daggers (before then its Slipstream), which is 430% instead of sages 400% so demon's win there, too.

Ow, yea right, totaly forgot, that demon has 40% Crit Damage instead of 30% (or 20% for the lazy people -> Sage Wolf Emblem).
Well, i guess in DPH perspective, its no change then or barely any noticeable chance (the sage dagger devotion doesnt give you the boost you would except).

Anyway, i still think, that sage is very good in pvp because of tidal and you can tripple spark, teleport to an fight like in nw, aoe with both or all three aoe attacks and still survive longer then an equal demon sin.
Most of the time, the demon sin would die pretty fast, when he doesnt have quiet good refines.

But anyway, i really really doubt, that our hardest hitting skill except earthen rift is slipstream strike.
Lets have a quick look into them, shall we?

Slipstream Strike:
Deals base physical damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 6633

Throuthcut:
Deals damage equal to your base attack, plus 100% weapon damage, plus an additional 7331.2 to Physical Attack

Headhunt:
Deals damage equal to your base attack plus 100% weapon damage and another 8018.1 physical attack

There is no doubt, that Throuthcut and Headhunt deal way more damage. Slipstream strike is a very hard hitting, no chi cost skill, but not THE hardest hitting after earthen rift.

skaitavia · March 2013

Now I'm one of the few oddballs out that is full r9r2 and being demon. XD

opkossy · March 2013

He's also taking the daggers used into account (I: With a weakr weapon, rift would be less damaging than a headhunt, for example).

That said slipstream is fast, does around the same damage as a level 10 headhunt, and is free in terms of chi.

... but yeah, it's not quite hardest hitting outside of rift.

*patpats Skai* It's okay. I won't hate you for being some sorta weirdo. b:laugh

Tsyn - Raging Tide · March 2013

=_= Well, first off, I already know I'm going sage. I went sage on my sin on Archosaur, and was probably the first sin to do it who PK'd regularly. (Not that that matters anymore q_q bannnsss)

The question is I really don't know how to get to that point again. Oddballs like Skai, who are demon, can easily farm G13, and then a Tome, and then G16, then R9, because of the aps boost and massive DPS. They can farm FC really quickly for levels as well. However, that would also mean I would have to farm for sage skills AND some demon skills. I also wouldn't be able to PvP with the sage skills I'm used to.

Sage would be more difficult, as I would have to farm a pangu without permaspark at base 3.33, and it would also mean I would never have a high dps at 4aps base g13 - however, I wouldn't have to bother with getting demon skills. I also wouldn't be able to PvP with the best DPS (esp in comparison to the fulls running around these days).

<_< I'm asking which route to my goal is the easiest... not what my goal should be.

Deadalus - Harshlands · March 2013

As i mentioned above, demon.

Just BECAUSE you have way higher DPS then Sage, because you dont have to stay on g13 and/or hope for 2x int on G15/16 daggers to have higher APS.
As Demon, you dont need any skills on demon, it only helps you like rib strike, but i can stay on Lv10 aswell.
On demon, you really only need the bosst from the spark, to increase your DPS significant and this means, farm faster and better.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · March 2013

To be honest, I gave up PvE. There is barely anything to farm nowadays that can really make me coins. If you can still find things that are worth your while to farm, then go demon and farm it. G16 daggers are relatively cheaper compared to before, so adding it into your goal won't really make a huge difference. However, if you can't find anything to farm, then I wouldn't really bother with going demon anymore.

Unholly - Lothranis · March 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's a myth. Sage mastery will add about 2-3% dph and I assume you're saying sage hits harder because you'll have CotD on. 5 attack levels on an endgame r9t3 sins with blessing and chill is nothing. Its around 2% over demon. So the total boost to sages dph is around 4.5%. That's obviously less than the 40% rage damage boost that demon's get on crits, making them the harder hitters.

The real selling points of sages is Tidal Protection, and chi management. Sages do really well punching it out in pk and are able to stand there and use RDS and Tackling Slash without dieing in the process because of their Tidal Protection and spark damage reduction. This means they can stay triple sparked a huge % of the time in pvp.

i would argue this point, im pretty sure that sage sins have the higher DPH potential due to sub sea amp being 20% higher than a demon sins.

If we are to take wolf>sub>rift as our highest hitting combo excluding mastery's & (sage)rift damage. Then i think taking 10k as the damage dealt by both sins the maths would work out a little bit like this:

Sage - 10000 x 2.20 x 1.5 = 33000 || 2.20 = 220% rage damage || 1.5 = subsea amp
Demon - 10000 x 2.40 x 1.3 = 31200 || 2.40 = 240% rage damage || 1.3 = subsea amp

This would be excluding the fact that sages have a number of skills which should make their base hits hit a lil harder (mastery's,rift(sage),CoTD) admittedly not much but still an increase. Soooo if this is correct then sage sins will have a slightly higher DPH potential on our highest hitting combination. not to mention that this is presuming 100% crit rate.

Now on to DPHA (A = average) I would also peg sage sins as having this too, for the simple reason that they have wolf active all the time + mastery's and CoTD. Presuming that a sin is out of stealth and DDing for a minute then this should nullify the demons 20% higher wolf. Admittedly the % extra damage from these is not that much higher than a demons but it still should be a bit higher. Im not even going to attempt the math on this...

I do however agree with the second line. If a slight DPHA on a sage is worth choosing the cultivation for that reason i would say is debatable.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To be honest, I gave up PvE.

This. I wouldn't consider demon path as so much more successful of a farmer as I would have used to because there simply isn't too much to farm. Granted I think demon's have an easier time getting Warsong squads for farming their duty badges and as r9t3 you'll prollly be LF 600+ for rerolls. People prefer to kill the bosses in 1 or 2 sparks to avoid things like the cleric stun in wood, and overall boss time in WS is a fair chunk of time spent per run.

They also have a little more farming potential in events, like CoA and Tiger.

But, as farming has been such drastically cut by PWE I'm really not sure demon holds much of an advantage anymore. Sage sins just have to duo to makeup the time difference but the runs go smoother. BP and damage reduction means that even if duoing you'll spend less time accidently dieing and having to walk back so it almost equals out.

Unholly - Lothranis wrote: »

i would argue this point, im pretty sure that sage sins have the higher DPH potential due to sub sea amp being 20% higher than a demon sins.

Fair enough. In PvP Subsea combo isn't a huge factor but combination dph would be higher with sage. This will go back to 50% amp for 7 seconds gives less overall amp than 30% amp for 12 seconds, but you're right that the dph would favor sage and help charm bipass while demon would favor dps in pvp and be better for multiple person pvp. This is offtopic though.

Unholly - Lothranis wrote: »

on to DPHA (A = average) I would also peg sage sins as having this too, for the simple reason that they have wolf active all the time + mastery's and CoTD. Presuming that a sin is out of stealth and DDing for a minute then this should nullify the demons 20% higher wolf. Admittedly the % extra damage from these is not that much higher than a demons but it still should be a bit higher. Im not even going to attempt the math on this...

Since many sins are reaching 50% crit and higher with Dominance tomes and r9t3 our dph average actually favors your average hit being a critical attack. Also, 40% rage for 30 out of 60 seconds is misleading because demon sins that pvp know you might wait on a cooldown while stealthed, or time your teleport at an opponent to include your WE. So I think most of the demon sins have it active about 80% of their fighting time and on cooldown between fights. Same in PvE where you kill most things in under 2 sparks and then it cools down while you walk you stealth past mobs and walk to the next boss so its active almost your entire fighting time.

Again, off topic but something to consider if he's considering sage/demon for pve.

So for going demon to farm you'd want... Demon dagger. Rib strike. Shadow teleport? Thats about it as your somewhat vital farming skills. 10 gold for a celestial schism. 95% of your culti you can solo, like Aba and Seat bosses. Do you have friends that could help you do your full deltas quickly to reset? That'd even help you farm your PG tome.

Deadalus - Harshlands · March 2013

Well, maybe there isnt much to farm nowadays, but there is still stuff you can make good money with like the good old TT or Lunar. Not saying, that sage cant do them, they actually can do them pretty good and smooth and with a BM on your side, you dont even need a cleric, just buff up and ready, set go.

When you really want to farm everything, it will go way faster on demon, as Saku said, you dont need alot demon skills to farm good, shadow jump is a handy skill to pass through walls in TT, but you can bypass this by throwing a knife instead and teleport, when the monster comes to you.

dagger devotion and rib strike arent necessary, because demon only gives 15% more weapon damage (which isnt much) and 1% crit strike. rib strike also gives a boost from 50% to 65% reduction in the enemys attack speed. barely noticeable.

Also, everyone praises the sage spark, that you survive way better with it, but i say, no. Ofc you recive less damage, infakt 25%, but you cant make this up in using g13 to have 4aps and when you want 5aps, you have to use windshield (spamable one) which overrites sage spark, so the spark is kinda pointless anyway.
4aps is good, but g13 isnt. when you want g15/16 with 2x int, you need 2.86aps to begin with, to even get back to 3.33 or 4 aps. under 3.33aps, you cant perma spark and even with 3.33, its hard to get 3 sparks by just auto attacking, letting no room for other skills like ribstrike in an critical situation.
Sure the chi skills we have helps, but damn. you dont allways have time for RDS or Tackling.

I cant say it more often, as i said it before, i think demon is better in every single way you looking at it, farms faster, getting **** done fast, opens doors in random squads for warsong/lunar/whatnot and cost less for high dps.

nuff said b:shutup

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2013

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

shadow jump is a handy skill to pass through walls in TT, but you can bypass this by throwing a knife instead and teleport, when the monster comes to you.

Unless you want to stay stealth or not chain aggro multiple mobs.

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

dagger devotion and rib strike arent necessary, because demon only gives 15% more weapon damage (which isnt much) and 1% crit strike. rib strike also gives a boost from 50% to 65% reduction in the enemys attack speed. barely noticeable.

2% crit rate on demon. It's about 3.5% more dps which is somewhat useful.

And I'd need to redo the math on Rib Strike but its something like .7 aps for bosses base (once every 1.4 seconds ish), so 50% reduction is an attack every 2.85 second and .65% is an attack every 4 seconds? That can't be right... Someone correct me. My point is it seem pretty noticable to me.

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

I cant say it more often, as i said it before, i think demon is better in every single way you looking at it, farms faster, getting **** done fast, opens doors in random squads for warsong/lunar/whatnot and cost less for high dps.

I agree with you (except for TP and FM and paint but I don't even care about 3% paint honestly) but I also agree with others that it depends on playstyle. For me, the sin is to be played agressively in a straight-forward attack-and-avoid manner where our high damage output and killing speed covers our squishiness. Get them before they get you and no problems right?

The people I see successful at playing sage sins are usually archers, wizards, or oddly enough barbs, that have come over to this melee dd class and still like to kite or avoid damage and work around the target till its eventually dead. The most successful sage sins I've seen kite me alot in pk and avoid death and are very patient, where the most successful demon PM's setup killing bursts and have just learned to kill before they're killed. And then some just can't stand being so squishy and do things like sage (wont engage unless sage sparked), defense gear instead of aps, vit in the build, or heavy armor sins. Again, its all about playstyle. I agree for playing a sin how ~I think~ it should be played demon is better but I've seen some successful variations.

Edit: Sorry, trying to stay on topic but considering sage vs demon for farming towards endgame brings up sage and demon debates. How long, as a demon, do you think it'd take you to farm R9 with a PG tome? If you can knock it out in a month(or you do most your farming in NW and prefer to just NW as a sage) , just go sage. If it may take you a year or more then yah, demon might be better for farming faster. Need OP feedback.

Tsyn - Raging Tide · March 2013

I get around 100-150 tokens per NW, on a different sin. Raptures are about 100k right now. If I do a bit of TT/FC farming, then I could probably make off with 33 mil per week.
Gold is roughly 1.6 million each right now.

Yes, I know I could use that other sin to farm, but tbh I dislike using it... for a multitude of reasons....

On a side topic: Sakubatou, that's exactly how I fight on sage sin... curiously enough, I started out on an archer for PvP. XD People tell me I tick too much of their damn charm.

Unholly - Lothranis · March 2013

My vote would be go with option B seeing as it sounds like NW is going to be your main source of income and you prefer pvp on a sage sin, this may boost your NW income by a bit.

Horugou - Raging Tide · March 2013

In my opinion, if you wanna be a sage sin at endgame,
become one now, play within it's limitations,
find out what works best for it, and make it work.

I did this on seeker, I didn't know how to play a seeker at
one point, but as I found out about delta, then Trophy Modes,
then Lunar, etc, I worked my way, and I've learned how
seekers can make money, I never made a 'nirvana farmer sin'
to get my money, in fact, I made money on my seeker for my
sin alt which I made for fun. I will never be able to make as much
money on a sin as on my seeker because of my dedication to
my seeker.

I know you already have a pretty darn good idea, but all I wanna
say is, you know how to PK as a sage sin, but to learn to farm
as one, you will get more familiar with your toon, you notice things,
it adds another dimension to playing your toon, and using skills,
you'll be happy you did

That's my two cents, spend em however you like

Arctix - Dreamweaver · March 2013

The only thing that matters is time factor

If u can farm 33mil a week on a demon sin per say n 29m per week on a sage one at similar gears pre endgame then demon sin is a better way to go if it will take more than 1 n a half month seeing u wont invest more than 25m on demon path. If less than that u could as well start off as a sage. Its just an example of simple logic n u can guess ur estimate

Also demon gives higher base fund to invest in merchanting n sage requires lesser fund to use up on end game.

This is considering u can see sizable difference (~3m to start) in the amount of coin farmed by a sage or demon if not its clearly best to go sage n farm mayb one more week at max .

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · March 2013

OP doesn't have to farm demon skills

just demon wolf emblem+w/e else is good for 3-spark autoattacking, even mastery isn't that much of a difference

The Path to Endgame - Opinions Please!

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