Sage Sin - Daggers question g13 or g15

My vote is to go with G15, and then shoot to upgrade them to G16 with an interval mod.

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

At your current gear, you won't be able to permaspark very well with G15, and the damage you gain from sac strike isn't worth it.

4.0 permasparks just fine, especially with Inner Harmony, Tackling Slash, and Rib Strike. I have +10 sac/-int g15s and the zerk is very much worth it. There's nothing like a unsparked zerk crit making you do the same damage you do with a sparked crit. These proc quite often too, especially after Power Dash.
Have you even experienced sac/GoF? Don't judge something until you experience it.
In this game, math and experience have two very different outcomes. Luck and randomness has much to do with this game.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And it's not the permaspark that is important, it's the extra chi. By dropping down, even if it's merely from 4.0 to 3.33, you lose the ability to spam Power Dash and Subsea. This, coupled with the fact that the loss of APS is going to make G13 and G15 nearly identical in terms of DPS, results in dropping to G15 being a **** choice for a Sage sin.

I disagree with this statement, but agree with your conclusion. It really is the permaspark thats important because not being sparked for 3.5 seconds means no damage reduction and since your unsparked damage is roughly 1/3 of your sparked damage so you are getting 1/3 the paint heals during that time. No paint heals and no damage reduction for almost 4 seconds can be deadly.

We've done the math before and in a solo situation the time lose of casting PD and Subsea is almost equal to the damage gained when you are soloing, and the OP is talking about soloing. If I remember right a sage PD of 50% crit was something like 12% more DD during their 15 second spark and a 50% Subsea wasn't much better. Yes, it dramatically improves in squad situations as well as Subseaing boosting your squads dd but for soloing its usually much more important to keep the Inner Harmony needed to SS/PD in case you need a rescue, get stunned, or fall short of your spark.

So imo it is the perma spark. I use Power Dash about twice a month and my Subsea is meant to amp my squad, not myself. And I really never use either when soloing since Extreme Poison on my genie tends to be much more efficient (I know you'll counter with using Frenzy instead. I can use both at the same time).

I do agree with your conclusion though. The perma spark capabilities and higher aps of G13s make them about equal to R9/G15s daggers for sage, but offer much more surviviability since it gives more frequent paint heals and you can spark as needed.

-Int Tome is pretty vital for sages though =/

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As a sage sin, I honestly owned both weapons, and I sold the **** thorns for several reasons. When FC was working, I owned a pair of g13's and g15's (the lunar for g15). I sold the g13's because my g15's had int, crit, and a atk level add. I was douing TT with my girlfriend, who has +6 TT g13's and is a demon sin. I was asking her about her damage log, I was doing about 300 more damage than her per hit, and my sin isnt even pure dex build just yet (gonna restat). It may also be because I have sage dagger devotion as well. I figured as long as i can keep up spark cycle's with the g15's, why do I need the g13's? The have **** damage and I can just resell them to an aps crazed sin, which is what I did. The point is people talk **** about windsheild, but it is very effective, it allows permaspark with better damage, and me having a genie with 205 vit and 2.5 energy regen per sec, I can spam it like crazy(holy path as well). My gear is refined to +5 and +4 on the ornies and I can solo most of TT3-1, everything except beast. Eventually I traded my g15's +25mil for a pair of g16's with int (same refine), and the guy sold my g15's for about 85mil.

You are gonna have to make a choice, 'easier' perma sparking, or use windshield. And anyone that say windshield is a bad way to use a genie, most melee's on DW have it on their genies, even the demon sins in a lot of cases. Also the int tome is only vital if you are too lazy to use skills imo. I don't have one and i do better than most sins who have the tome. But i do have a str tome that allows me to wear HA robe and cape for PVP (more hp than the LA version), which I can acc stash to my barb. b:victory

There are a few mistakes you make there:

A: You think, that is only the 300damage per hit, but she hits more times each second as you do, without a tome and only 1x int on daggers, you reach 2.86 without and 3.33 with Windshield. Also saying, that g15 daggers with int and 20 attack levels are better then g13 daggers with same refine (i think so), is like saying, that g16 does more damage then g15. Well, no ****.

B: Windshield is good, but bad in cases, where you need the protection of your spark, and there is your problem without tome and 2x int, you dont have perma spark. Not counting in Inner Harmoney, because its a emergency skill for me, when you get stunned,sealed or debuffed. Also other skills like Rib Strike arent possible without sacrificing spark time or unprotected time while unsparked.

C: I will almost bet, that you deal more damage over time (DPS) with g13+10 daggers with 4aps (with windshield, no tome) then with g15+10 daggers 3.33aps (with windshield, no tome). The DPH isnt that important here, when the DPS is higher, then its better to use g13 with more aps, which gives you more freedom to use other skills.
As you mentioned, your gf hit 300dmg ledd then you do but i assmue, she is either 4 or 5 aps, that means she deals WAY more damage then you do with 3.33.
I dont do maths here, but when she hits 700dmg and you 1000dmg, you do only in the DPH section 30% more damage.
But when you hit only 3.33 times and she 5 times, its nothing you can hold your argument on.

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

There are a few mistakes you make there:

A: You think, that is only the 300damage per hit, but she hits more times each second as you do, without a tome and only 1x int on daggers, you reach 2.86 without and 3.33 with Windshield. Also saying, that g15 daggers with int and 20 attack levels are better then g13 daggers with same refine (i think so), is like saying, that g16 does more damage then g15. Well, no ****.

B: Windshield is good, but bad in cases, where you need the protection of your spark, and there is your problem without tome and 2x int, you dont have perma spark. Not counting in Inner Harmoney, because its a emergency skill for me, when you get stunned,sealed or debuffed. Also other skills like Rib Strike arent possible without sacrificing spark time or unprotected time while unsparked.

C: I will almost bet, that you deal more damage over time (DPS) with g13+10 daggers with 4aps (with windshield, no tome) then with g15+10 daggers 3.33aps (with windshield, no tome). The DPH isnt that important here, when the DPS is higher, then its better to use g13 with more aps, which gives you more freedom to use other skills.
As you mentioned, your gf hit 300dmg ledd then you do but i assmue, she is either 4 or 5 aps, that means she deals WAY more damage then you do with 3.33.
I dont do maths here, but when she hits 700dmg and you 1000dmg, you do only in the DPH section 30% more damage.
But when you hit only 3.33 times and she 5 times, its nothing you can hold your argument on.

A: 300 more damage on a TT boss is big when ur only hitting 1.5-2k, even if she hits faster I hit harder. My dps is better even when she had a perfect shard vs my immac, or her +6 vs my +5. And if you read carefully, i said I had g15's when i asked her that, not g16. I just got my g16 recently.

B: Honestly i can spam windsheild twice and have enough chi back for another spark when its over, i can get 2.5 sparks back before the first ws is over. And i pot to smooth it out for the last few auto's, not really noticable when im getting hit for 1 dmg bc of sage focused mind. You were right about perma spark tho, it has to be higher than 3.33 aps. Also i can use tackling slash and get the 50chi i need right away if its that much of an emergency, but i takes less damage that most demon w/ the same refine. Also i went the lunar route for leggings, which have more base def. If that's a factor.

C: Why is its that people forget dph is in direct correlation to dps? I can pull aggro from demon sins, unsparked while they are sparked (that resulted in most of my deaths in WS, bc i don't spark on bosses in WS). And if I had +10 g15 gof/ss w/ int and a tome. My dps and dph would far exceed that of a 5aps g13 sin, simply because the dph more than makes up for the loss of 1 auto.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

C: Why is its that people forget dph is in direct correlation to dps? I can pull aggro from demon sins, unsparked while they are sparked (that resulted in most of my deaths in WS, bc i don't spark on bosses in WS). And if I had +10 g15 gof/ss w/ int and a tome. My dps and dph would far exceed that of a 5aps g13 sin, simply because the dph more than makes up for the loss of 1 auto.

That is a very valid point. Dumbed down, dps=dph x aps. Both are important for sins.

G13s have notoriously **** damage but actually refine well. In fact, G13 and G15 refine equally (and sadly G16s barely refine any better but nerfing dagger refine and base damage was needed for some game balance), but since they are doing 50% more aps (comparing 3.33 and 5.0) they'd actually catch up and out dd you with higher refines.

We get into "I'm 4.0 base... with windshield" arguments in the forums all the time. While you jump from 3.33 to 4.0 with windshield they can just as easily use EP or frenzy to gain their dps. I tend to call base attack rate the rate before genie or sparks (or cyclone or other aps boosting skills). 4.0 with windshield is 3.33 aps, or you can consider it 4.0 but you don't have a genie...

Easy of sparking or the ability to amp or use your genie for something defensive (AD?) is usually worth the slight loss in dps for most sins.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I was asking her about her damage log, I was doing about 300 more damage than her per hit, and my sin isnt even pure dex build just yet (gonna restat). It may also be because I have sage dagger devotion as well.

300 damage isn't much. You say 1750 average dph and you hit about 300 more? So 17% dph increase vs 4 aps instead of 3.33 aps (20% aps increase). Obviously you'd get more dps from lower dph and higher aps in that equation. You also get permaspark. You also get your genie free.

Not to mention they're demon so you may have had the stronger weapon and the sage mastery but they should have also had 2% crit on top of that.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The point is people talk **** about windsheild, but it is very effective, it allows permaspark with better damage, and me having a genie with 205 vit and 2.5 energy regen per sec, I can spam it like crazy(holy path as well). My gear is refined to +5 and +4 on the ornies and I can solo most of TT3-1, everything except beast. Eventually I traded my g15's +25mil for a pair of g16's with int (same refine), and the guy sold my g15's for about 85mil.

You are gonna have to make a choice, 'easier' perma sparking, or use windshield. And anyone that say windshield is a bad way to use a genie, most melee's on DW have it on their genies, even the demon sins in a lot of cases. Also the int tome is only vital if you are too lazy to use skills imo. I don't have one and i do better than most sins who have the tome. But i do have a str tome that allows me to wear HA robe and cape for PVP (more hp than the LA version), which I can acc stash to my barb. b:victory

Windshield doesn't effect damage; Just dps. Maybe that's what you meant.

And the reason you see windshield on so many genies is for damage reduction in pvp. Its like a mini-invoke which alot of sins need, and you get to do it without sparking. For most of them it has nothing to do with aps or damage output.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the sin i took aggro from was using g13's but they were also getting chunked harder than i was so maybe they had stopped attacking.

Taking aggro is a very poor way to measure damage output. Put it this way, my main is a BM with G16 claws +10 and 5 aps. During WBs I regularly keep aggro off two R9t3 +12 4 aps sins who out DD me by about 20%, and that's while I'm HFing their sparks.

The main reason is I know what 15 seconds is and most the time they either macro and spark every 12 seconds or the let their spark die and don't spark till 17 or 18 seconds. Also I hit my own HF because I trip spark+HF combo. I also time my sparks to other BMs HFs. They just don't pay as close attention to maximizing their damage output. Nothing to do with their build, weapon, refines, culti... its just their playstyle.

Also, sometimes the aggro will bounce between players during the 3 seconds spark time. When a person hasn't attacked for 15 attacks (3 seconds x 5 aps) thats alot of time for the second place dd to catch up but then their spark dies and they need to spark and they lose aggro again.