Archer sage or demon?

Compare skills and figure it out yourself? "Which is best" is so subjective.

it depends on you. i have demon archer and i like the demon quickshot+ demon stunning arrow or sta combination. or added aps if demon sparked. on sage part, they have higher physical attack from sage bow mastery, they have longer range than demon. sometimes when i fight sage archer with same gear with me, they will be firing stunning arrow before i can reach my range and thats their advantage

if ur r9 or r9r go demon - shoot faster and kill harder opponents / purge
if ur g16 go sage - higher dph means you 1 hit more ppl and from bigger range, kill noobs..

im full g16 demon b:surrender

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah uh I don't agree with this.
G16 nirvana has such a low amount of interval on the set it doesn't really benefit being sage over demon.

At end game i.e r9r2 sage is better FOR MY OWN GAME PLAY STYLE. Higher dph, longer stun, higher crit, more chi, slightly arguably insignificant yet still present higher defense.

Demon still has higher Aps and their barrage is better for anything over 2 intervals. I also like their version of lightning strike and thunder shock.

So it really depends. Are you a machine gun, or a revolver.

fixed.

Archers are gimpy as **** at endgame, live with it. Demon archers, when finishing someone with pdmg, have a 4-6% crit disadvantage when compared to sages. They hit 30-40% faster after qs procs (since interval rounding is always in your favour.) (Almost forgot, demon QS also has a slight advantage with PW's crappy rng.)

When finishing, your opponent will have up to 5% more hp than the sage's opponent would. Take into account that, for any case where 5% hp will always mean another hit, you're looking at someone you can't kill. 4-6% added crit should be 4-6% added dmg, but you're still gambling.

Yes, Sages hit harder, and though i don't have the exact percentage in the back of my head at the moment, i'm pretty sure it's quite negligible (comparable to the 2% dmg demons get with the crit passive) and in any case, it gets lost in your bow's dmg range, so while sages can all whine all day about higher dmg, that is also up to chance.

Sage defense is a lie. Whatever bhavvy may think, demons defend better than sages (wingspan and winged shell, those few instances where metal debuff procs and mo zun's all contribute a lot if you know what you're doing.) when you're not using sage spark or barrage (and in both of those cases it shouldn't matter, as stated in plenty of posts before this one).

Sage stun is nice, but it really only comes to rights when you're fighting someone who can't really afford to tank you anyway. i.e.: a nonfactor.

tldr: You're playing an archer, ffs, consistency is not the point, don't gimp yourself trying to get it.

dmant wrote: »

Sage quickshot gets 100% chance at 20% higher crit rate. That means the demon crit advantage just dissapeared. And actually turned to a disadvantage when quickshot is in effect. And I know what you're saying, you can't always use quickshot. Except the 20% crit lasts for 10 seconds, and the cooldown on quickshot is 3 seconds. So let's start off with sage getting permanant 20% more crit.

Move on to stun. Sage is 1 second longer. End of story.

Move on to Aim Low. Sage is 20% chance to seal, turning the skill into a pathetic stun, but a stun none-the-less. And if you freeze outside of their range of you, it's still a stun.

Now Take Aim. A completely worthless skill in PK because of the long channelling time. But when combined with the Morai stealth skill it becomes a powerhouse. Channelling is ignored because you are sitting in stealth so it could be a 20 second channel and wouldn't matter. And 500% more weapon damage is amazing if you're R9 or S3 or R8 and well refined. That's doubling your attack and 20% more damage added on to your attack than demon! Sit in stealth, pop a Galvanic Charge before Take Aim and you just guaranteed a crit (Take Aim) with a 65% for quad damage!

Sage Frost Arrow just turned into a magic attack for hitting barbs and BMs. Why would you use that as a first strike on HA vs metal attacks? Anyone who thinks slowing a barb or BM that is rushing toward you by half isn't worth it is an idiot. That means you hit twice as many times before they get to you. You just doubled your damage before they can attack.

Finally, sage Winged Blessing. The crit advantage of demons is nice, I agree, but sage gets better crit advantage through quickshot. Sage gets 2 meters more range. And anyone who doesn't understand the advantage of range shouldn't be playing an archer. 2 additional meters on a slowed enemy toon means you hit them at least 1-2 additional times before they can hit. Combine that 2 meter advantage with Aim Low and you now have a second stun that lasts for 8 seconds against anything but other sage archers!

The underlined areas are the parts where your argument lost all credibility. Although I probably should have just underlined the whole thing and saved myself the time it took to filter it down to what it is.

dmant wrote: »

Sage passive attack boost is about the same damage increase as demon 2% crit rate over time. Yeah, the 2% gets lost in you seeing it in your damage range, but it means you will ALWAYS hit for 2% more damage. The other advantage is that refining your base weapon damage will just make the passive boost shine all the better. And remember, the dex modifyiner is off of total weapon damage, so it also boosts your dex modifyer for pure dex toons.

I dont understand what you mean with this. I suppose there is no question if sage mastery is better or not - with sage QS the constant crit rate is so high it starts to get relatively less effective. But while higher base dmg offers higher dmg gain, relatively there isnt difference between sage and demon in this sense.

The whole dex modifier, if I understood it correctly, is actually false. In it`s essence it`s bout wep dmg being multiplied trough several factors. Mastery doesnt affect weapon damage at all but it`s part of damage multiplier. Dex multiplier + Weapon masteries + Possible sparks. When you have higher dex, you have higher dex multiplier and thus it plays larger part of damage multiplier.

So actually, the less dex you have, the better sage bow mastery is compared to demon one. In it`s essence, the 15% higher mastery is bigger part of 200% than it`s of 300% for example. Then again, with small base crit extra crit % offers relatively more than at high base crit. Not saying sages should avoid dex, that would be idiotic. While 15% might be bigger part of smaller number, the bigger total multiplier we get, the better.

dmant wrote: »

Move on to Aim Low. Sage is 20% chance to seal, turning the skill into a pathetic stun, but a stun none-the-less. And if you freeze outside of their range of you, it's still a stun.

I fail to see what relevant difference there is between stun and seal + freeze. The only relevant difference between sage and demon AL is that sage seal lasts 5s, demon stun 3s and sage has marginally higher chance of not stopping the target. Im talking bout the 2.5% chance of stunning but not freezing of demon AL, sage has same chance for seal w/o freezing but that doesnt stop moving. A freeze is a freeze, no matter if the target can hit you or not. Just because they cant hit you, doesnt mean they cant do something to better their chances on the encounter. Still, 1 spark skill isnt really worth it.

dmant wrote: »

Now Take Aim. A completely worthless skill in PK because of the long channelling time. But when combined with the Morai stealth skill it becomes a powerhouse. Channelling is ignored because you are sitting in stealth so it could be a 20 second channel and wouldn't matter. And 500% more weapon damage is amazing if you're R9 or S3 or R8 and well refined. That's doubling your attack and 20% more damage added on to your attack than demon! Sit in stealth, pop a Galvanic Charge before Take Aim and you just guaranteed a crit (Take Aim) with a 65% for quad damage!

While it`s true sage TA is better in that sense, I would question 2 things. First of all, I have doubts if you can channel on to a target w/o popping out of stealth, been meaning to test it for ages. Sins dont really have any skill which would channel long enough to reliably test it. But judging by some reflexes I have seen while playing my sin, wouldnt be surprised if channeling popped you out of stealth.

But more importantly, your math is a bit off here. First of all, the 500% weapon damage is only part of the total damage. 450 dex is prolly around or bit under the average nowdays on endgame so we get 300% more dmg from there. weapon mastery 90% for sage, 75% for demon. Not to forget blazing arrow, which is 60% for sage and 50% for demon(casting BA cancels stealth). Limping BA into multiplier is bit lazy, in truth its another damage calculation summed on top of the normal damage calculation as it`s fire damage, thus it gets reduced by fire resistance, not physical defense.

PWI wiki wrote:

Daggers and ranged weapons:
attack multiplier = 1 + ( Dex / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

Anyways, Sage TA = 1 + 450/150(dex) + 5.0 (TA) + 0.9 (Mastery) + 0.6 (BA) = 10.5.

Demon TA = 1 + 450/150(dex) + 4.0 (TA) + 0.75 (Mastery) + 0.5(BA) = 9.25

10.5 - 9.25 / 9.25 x 100% = 13.5% more damage from sage TA than from demon TA. Not to forget demon has slightly more crit and the higher dex, the smaller difference there is relatively between paths.

Let`s act like I didnt notice the "guaranteed crit", just this once, thanks.

dmant wrote: »

Sage Frost Arrow just turned into a magic attack for hitting barbs and BMs. Why would you use that as a first strike on HA vs metal attacks? Anyone who thinks slowing a barb or BM that is rushing toward you by half isn't worth it is an idiot. That means you hit twice as many times before they get to you. You just doubled your damage before they can attack.

I like frost arrow myself but I kinda want to facepalm right here. When it comes to barbs, no doubt the magic deals more damage than physical would. But fact is, the skill deals low damage, no matter it`s magic damage. Anybody who compares it to wizzies gush should be outright mocked. Seekers who dont roll with p.def orns, difference is bout half more damage over auto-attack. And BMs? They tend to run with Magic marrow on and have more m.res than p.def.

Lets not forget that most of the time when BM runs towards you in mass PK, BM has antistun on, thus frost arrow wont slow the target at all. Same with barbs when they intend to do something scary - 5s slow for 50% and kitty still runs towards you almost as fast as you run from him w/o speed buffs. Best target for sage FA is actually assassin, has most of the time worst m.def out of all classes and while they got jumps, slow is fairly annoying for squishy sin in mass PK. The main problem with FA is chi cost, if it didnt have any, it would be worthy skill. Right now I would take demon chi over sage water damage any day of the week.

dmant wrote: »

Finally, sage Winged Blessing. The crit advantage of demons is nice, I agree, but sage gets better crit advantage through quickshot. Sage gets 2 meters more range. And anyone who doesn't understand the advantage of range shouldn't be playing an archer. 2 additional meters on a slowed enemy toon means you hit them at least 1-2 additional times before they can hit. Combine that 2 meter advantage with Aim Low and you now have a second stun that lasts for 8 seconds against anything but other sage archers!

I have trouble finding words for this paragraph. Well I suppose life is easier when you give up such time taking activities like thinking.

Lets start with the 32m vs 30m range concept, anybody who says it is somehow significant has never played sage archer or has very limited experience with it. Fact is, unless your target is afk, AL wont lock your target on max range at which point AL is a wasted spark. You have to be in 32m range to channel AL, which takes 1s to channel at which point the freeze appears I believe. 1s and even cleric has moved 4.8m, making it 32-4.8 = 27.6m range. Situations where starting with AL gives range advantage require opponent who isnt paying attention.

Now to do some math on "2m = at least 1-2 additional attacks on slowed target till it can hit you". Simple R999 has fairly slow aps and I think it would be unfair to do math on it, least the clean Pwicalc set, not gonna bother finding stats for it. So I went and built this reasonable aps build just for this math.

1.05 aps means interval between attacks of 0.95s. So to gain another attack, it has to take longer than 0.95s for opponent to move 2m. Or simplifying, movement speed has to be under 2m / 0.95s = 2.1m/s

Cleric has movement speed of 4.8m/s. 4.8 - 2.1 / 4.8 x 100% = 56% which is the number movement speed has to be slowed to gain another attack on cleric with 2m distance. Sadly archers dont have strong enough slow for this.

To gain 2 attacks, 1 for each meter, we would need 1m / 0.95s = 1.05m/s. 4.8 - 1.05 / 4.8 x 100% = 78%. Only strong enough slow I can think of is archer stealth slow, which sadly disappears when you pop em out of stealth =/.

For this low numbers was used pretty much all out aps build and assumption target isnt using any speed buff, not to forget used target was slowest moving class in game. All these things taken into account, the argument is fairly ludicrous as at even most extreme scenario the assumption was debunked.

Ps. The dmg math, I feel like I forgot something but I cant think what <.<

winged shell:
Sage version absorbs up to a total of 1,250 damage.
Demon version increases max duration to 30 seconds and absorbs to 10.

I feel that the sage version better suits my play style.

I very rarely use wingspan. Mostly in PV where I am thankful for the chi but to be honest I would rather have the demon version. However in mass PK its still a very rarely used skill and seems to only be useful against close range classes like a sin or BM. I wouldnt base an entire cultivation on wingspan.

When finishing, your opponent will have up to 5% more hp than the sage's opponent would. Take into account that, for any case where 5% hp will always mean another hit, you're looking at someone you can't kill.

Kinda says it all.

To be honest I dont feel that any one of the 2 cultis is better or worse than the other.
Demon used to be far better than sage. Now the skill rebalance has happened, it seems to be a lot more even.
The biggest things that demon had on sage was crit and interval.
Now sage has the capability to have higher crit i just chose which one i felt was more useful.