PvE vs PvP Server Quality of PK'ers
Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear
Posts: 206 Arc User
I have never understood why people always tell people who PK on PvE servers to learn to play, blah, blah, blah, go to a PvP server and they will destroy you, etc. I myself may not be that good, but I know many people I would consider actually talented at PvP. How can you claim that anyone on a PvP server is better when there is no true way to determine that? Just because someone chooses to play on a PvE server doesn't mean they don't know how to PvP. When I started the game many years ago I just chose a server with a cool name from my time zone, as I suppose many have. So can someone please explain how everyone on a PvP server is magically better than those on PvE servers?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear on
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this may have had some truth years ago due to the amount of time you had to spend in the open map, and needing to learn self defense to survive, but its no longer true.
besides, all servers are PvP thanks to nation wars.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I don't think this statement is entirely true. There are definitely people on PvP server who aren't even half as good as some people on PvE servers.
There is some truth in the statement though, and that is because people on PvP servers tend to have more knowledge since people there tend to develop faster. People are more willing to spend money to stay competitive and PvP server tends to have more well geared people than PvE servers do. For that reason, someone who have been playing a PvP server for many years may have more experience dealing with certain situations than the same person playing on a PvE server. Mass pvp would be an example of such.
However, nowadays many PvE server have their fair share of full r9 third cast +12 with full josd already and that makes the statement less true for today.
In the end though, to judge whether a player is good or bad demands more than just their knowledge, but also their ability to adapt to new situations. Lets say you put two equally skilled players on two different servers where in player one's server everyone is third cast archers, and in player two's server everyone is third cast wizards. Naturally, player one would develop more strategy for countering third cast archers and player two would develop more strategy for countering third cast wizards. However, if we were to merge these two servers, you would expect that both players would adapt and have equal knowledge in dealing with both third cast archers and third cast wizards.Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer
All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw0070 -
On PVP servers there's people that never did PVP as on PVE servers there's probably people that PVP since forever.
But I guess PVE servers have more carebears than PVP servers.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear wrote: »I have never understood why people always tell people who PK on PvE servers to learn to play, blah, blah, blah, go to a PvP server and they will destroy you, etc. I myself may not be that good, but I know many people I would consider actually talented at PvP. How can you claim that anyone on a PvP server is better when there is no true way to determine that? Just because someone chooses to play on a PvE server doesn't mean they don't know how to PvP. When I started the game many years ago I just chose a server with a cool name from my time zone, as I suppose many have. So can someone please explain how everyone on a PvP server is magically better than those on PvE servers?
When we had the international PW tournament thing and the qualifying round for US servers was to kill harpy wraith as quickly as possible, Lost City and Harshlands each downed harpy wraith in a little over a minute whereas all PvE servers had drastically longer times. I think Sanctuary had like a minute longer, but then other servers needed 4 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes, 11 minutes, or flat-out died to Harpy Wraith.
Obviously this is PvE, but I think it's very telling. It shows a dramatic difference in quality, not mere accident or bad luck for the PvE servers.
But aside from that, experience is what makes a person better at PVP. In PVP servers, you can't avoid PK in some ways. You can after a certain point, but again everyone who plays on a PVP server elected to play there, so they probably won't hide in SZ all day. Many people who chose PvE servers on the other hand have exactly that intention and thus rarely (if ever) PK.
Lastly, I know I've both heard stories and seen tactics first-hand via a blue name alt that are exclusive to PvE servers. I've heard of barbs who like to find crowds of people while blue name, switch over and then perdition, then haul *** to SZ. Such things don't actually prep you for any real combat scenario. Likewise, I myself have noticed that at least from what I've seen, red names tend to get ganked a lot more in PvE servers, probably because many people who may want to PK for the moment don't want to be locked in as PK-enabled for several hours, no? The result is that it's waaaay too easy on one side and waaaay too hard on the other; the people ganking don't learn squat whereas the guy being ganked CAN grow stronger and wiser, but sometimes it's just too much for him to realistically accomplish anything.
So while obviously it's possible for there to be experienced players on any server, the PVP servers have the type of environment to produce more experienced players as a whole.I
AGOREY0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »When we had the international PW tournament thing and the qualifying round for US servers was to kill harpy wraith as quickly as possible, Lost City and Harshlands each downed harpy wraith in a little over a minute whereas all PvE servers had drastically longer times. I think Sanctuary had like a minute longer, but then other servers needed 4 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes, 11 minutes, or flat-out died to Harpy Wraith.
Obviously this is PvE, but I think it's very telling. It shows a dramatic difference in quality, not mere accident or bad luck for the PvE servers.
LOL you can't be serious. I can speak for HT's sake and tell you that the people HT "sent" to fight Harpy Wraith were mostly comprised of bad players that didn't know how to fight Harpy Wraith. They basically got an auto pass because in the PvP portion of that tourny, the actual top PvPers that were sent got ganked by the other two factions in there. The faction that won basically won by default with no effort needed really.
It's actually laughable if you think the Harpy Wraith incidents tell you how a server is in PvP.0 -
Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear wrote: »LOL you can't be serious. I can speak for HT's sake and tell you that the people HT "sent" to fight Harpy Wraith were mostly comprised of bad players that didn't know how to fight Harpy Wraith. They basically got an auto pass because in the PvP portion of that tourny, the actual top PvPers that were sent got ganked by the other two factions in there. The faction that won basically won by default with no effort needed really.
It's actually laughable if you think the Harpy Wraith incidents tell you how a server is in PvP.
So what you're saying is basically that your top players died to noobs?0 -
This is a pointless thread.
The reason PvE servers are made fun of is because of all the ridiculous posts you guys make on here which show your ignorance.
Like people claiming bramble used to work in open map pk and that it was nerfed. It was never nerfed. It didn't even work in My-En. I've been correcting you guys about bramble for 4 years now.
Or, all the idea about duels being comparable to pk. It isn't even close. Charm's increase your effective hp which totally changes the effectiveness of your shards ie vit stones vs jades etc. You guys have silly as hell rules like no stealthing for sins or don't use genies and ridiculous things like that.
The person right before Fizban's post tried to correct someone from Harshlands by saying basically the following:
Lol. We had bad PvE'ers fighting Harpy Wraith because they beat our good players at PvP. That doesn't prove that we are bad at PvP!
Basically, your best PvP team got it's butt kicked. The end. We wouldn't have wanted the superior mob killers to be our representative anyway.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Let me start by saying that I in no way consider myself a pvp expert. It's always been a take it or leave it aspect of the game for me, this is just my observations.
I started on a PVP server, then switched to a PVE about 3+ years ago. It was a big difference in mentality, focus of the players, and how to approach quests. It was a different game entirely.
Took me about a year to get over the habit of seeing a green dot and rebuffing myself. I still rarely leave towns through the gates, and instead fly up and over the walls to altitude 78.
I also noticed a large difference in the importance of fashion/mounts to people on HT that didn't exist when I started on Harshlands. Hell, if you showed up with a cash shop item, other than a charm, you were immediately out of faction.
RPK was something you did while bored, or if the next area you needed for quests was being camped on by high lvl (heh.. lvl 80) people. PK was an integral part of playing the game, and not something you just would wait till later levels to do.
I still log onto one now and then, and it's a very very different playing field now. I see little to no difference between a PVP and PVE server anymore. The ratio of red names to white names is about equal. RPK was what made PVP servers better training grounds vs PVE, and, at least from what I've seen, it's almost non-existant anymore. It's all, 'let's go outside xxx town and group pk.'0 -
BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »I still log onto one now and then, and it's a very very different playing field now. I see little to no difference between a PVP and PVE server anymore. The ratio of red names to white names is about equal. RPK was what made PVP servers better training grounds vs PVE, and, at least from what I've seen, it's almost non-existant anymore. It's all, 'let's go outside xxx town and group pk.'
Except your ratio (even if it holds true) discounts the ratio to blue names as well which is a critical difference to ignore in the comparison between pve and pvp servers.0 -
MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »Except your ratio (even if it holds true) discounts the ratio to blue names as well which is a critical difference to ignore in the comparison between pve and pvp servers.
True, I should have said red names vs white/blue names. It's still the same ratio. When I log onto HL or LC (less often) it's a sea of white, with a few red/pink peppered in there.0 -
On a PvP server a player has to be battle ready from a lower level. They see more PK action than a PvE player and because of this gives some of them the idea they are better at it. Basically it all boils down to ego. The idea that because they are on a PvP server it makes them tougher and braver.
*insert caveman grunt* I manly man because I play PvP server *grunt*
But when you really stop and think about, the opposite is true. On a PvP server you know that you are in danger of being PK'd at any minute and have more of a guard up. On a PvE server it's more rare for that happen so when a player is suddenly being PK'd it would require more skill to win because they are less likely to be expecting it.
Now I'm not saying this is the mentality of all PvP players. But the ones that automatically think all PvE PKer's can't play would certainly fit into this category.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
star-chaster.deviantart.com
star-chaster.tumblr.com0 -
MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »So what you're saying is basically that your top players died to noobs?
Yea, because 6 people dying to 12 top geared players means they're noob.0 -
Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yea, because 6 people dying to 12 top geared players means they're noob.
I think our point is more....
Why is it that the 6 that "deserve" to win can manage to do so in Harshlands and Lost City despite any ganks or the like, but the 6 "deserving" can't in PVE servers?
Because our 6 > your 6. Our 6 can handle that kinda stuff because they're experienced with those kinds of odds.I AGOREY0 -
BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »True, I should have said red names vs white/blue names. It's still the same ratio. When I log onto HL or LC (less often) it's a sea of white, with a few red/pink peppered in there.
I'd like to point out now that red name means nothing. Plus I highly doubt that the ratio is the same. You guys have many more blue names for one.
Additionally, 200 hours quickly melt away from doing pv etc0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »I think our point is more....
Why is it that the 6 that "deserve" to win can manage to do so in Harshlands and Lost City despite any ganks or the like, but the 6 "deserving" can't in PVE servers?
Because our 6 > your 6. Our 6 can handle that kinda stuff because they're experienced with those kinds of odds.
You can't even make a proper argument. You're basing this off of 1 fight that was well established as poorly organized by PWI. You don't know the quality of players that were on both sides for our server, so how can you judge? I can't say stuff like "our server's top 6 would beat another server's top 6" because there's been no way yet for anyone to find out who has the better 6-10 whatever number.0 -
MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »I'd like to point out now that red name means nothing. Plus I highly doubt that the ratio is the same. You guys have many more blue names for one.
Additionally, 200 hours quickly melt away from doing pv etc
Higher ratio of red names to blue/white names = higher server volume of pk = more frequent incidence of people having to learn how to defend/attack at the drop of a hat, without an entire squad behind them, and without a 'are you ready?'.
Of course we have more blue names, people aren't automatically thrown into white name at lvl 30. Being white named doesn't mean you're actively participating in open world pvp though.
If LC and HL were still the forges for experienced pvp'rs that they used to be (and still like to feel they deserve the reputation for) then there wouldn't be as much opportunity to have the red name wear off.0 -
BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »Higher ratio of red names to blue/white names = higher server volume of pk = more frequent incidence of people having to learn how to defend/attack at the drop of a hat, without an entire squad behind them, and without a 'are you ready?'.
Of course we have more blue names, people aren't automatically thrown into white name at lvl 30. Being white named doesn't mean you're actively participating in open world pvp though.
If LC and HL were still the forges for experienced pvp'rs that they used to be (and still like to feel they deserve the reputation for) then there wouldn't be as much opportunity to have the red name wear off.
Again I say that that ratio is indicative of very little other than the increased incidence of rpk.
Also, you can easily grind away 40 hrs with pv0 -
BurnWhenIWiz - Heavens Tear wrote: »Higher ratio of red names to blue/white names = higher server volume of pk = more frequent incidence of people having to learn how to defend/attack at the drop of a hat, without an entire squad behind them, and without a 'are you ready?'.
Of course we have more blue names, people aren't automatically thrown into white name at lvl 30. Being white named doesn't mean you're actively participating in open world pvp though.
If LC and HL were still the forges for experienced pvp'rs that they used to be (and still like to feel they deserve the reputation for) then there wouldn't be as much opportunity to have the red name wear off.
I pvp every single day, i attack both white and red names, however i am very rarely red. If someone defends themself in pvp, even gets 1 defensive shot in, then the killer does not turn red at the end of the fight.
Your argument is silly. Even if the red names on both servers were equal that wouldn't prove any kind of relationship in pvp activity. That would just show an equal amount of ppl were successful in oneshotting lesser geared opponents. White name players actively pvp every day, whether they choose to or not.
There is no practical comparison on your server[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »White name players actively pvp every day, whether they choose to or not.
In the past this would be true and I'd completely agree.
With the advent of hyper FCCs and everyone being holed up in instances, not so true anymore. While the older generation PKers from PvP servers will still likely have an edge over the ones from PvE servers due to server differences back then, the newer generation ones will be just as horrible regardless of the server because they both are essentially the same thing nowadays.
Now if people were forced to quest and be out in the open map and so forth more often (without being an alt of an alt of an alt that switches to their higher level character to 1-shot whoever because they don't have the skills to try and put up a fight on whatever character they're using at the time) then that edge PvP servers have over PvE servers would surface once again and result in them having better overall PKers.(Insert fancy image here)
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In the past this would be true and I'd completely agree.
With the advent of hyper FCCs and everyone being holed up in instances, not so true anymore. While the older generation PKers from PvP servers will still likely have an edge over the ones from PvE servers due to server differences back then, the newer generation ones will be just as horrible regardless of the server because they both are essentially the same thing nowadays.
Now if people were forced to quest and be out in the open map and so forth more often (without being an alt of an alt of an alt that switches to their higher level character to 1-shot whoever because they don't have the skills to try and put up a fight on whatever character they're using at the time) then that edge PvP servers have over PvE servers would surface once again and result in them having better overall PKers.
The pvp on pvp servers is still more active than on pve servers even if not by as large a margin. It's common for parties to fight at the end of instances as well;
But, my main point I wanted to stress was that most of the people active in pvp are white names, not red. Being red just means your opponent was never able to retaliate.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »But, my main point I wanted to stress was that most of the people active in pvp are white names, not red. Being red just means your opponent was never able to retaliate.
Yeah. I agree overall that the white names (or lighter shades of red) are the more active and skilled players that aren't just facerolling random people (or farming alts/lowbies) who don't get a chance to defend themselves.
Was just saying the part I actually disagreed with since quoting your post just to say I agree with everything here would have been redundant. b:chuckle(Insert fancy image here)0 -
Yeah. I agree overall that the white names (or lighter shades of red) are the more active and skilled players that aren't just facerolling random people (or farming alts/lowbies) who don't get a chance to defend themselves.
Was just saying the part I actually disagreed with since quoting your post just to say I agree with everything here would have been redundant. b:chuckle
This. b:beatup0 -
Too bad we cant have a 10vs10 pk against different servers.....
come on gms get with it. These PVE players are starting to think they have skill again....0 -
Some facts.
1) Regarding Dreamweaver's Harpy Wraith performance, the first time around the gms spawned an increased life harpy wraith. Yup, thats right, double the hp, lol. Nonetheless the team of ppl attacked it of course and they were on track to kill it in under 4 minutes. Then the gms being somewhat noob, realized their mistake, and spawned another Harpy, but as I hear it, everybody's apoth was still in cooldown from the first fight, and so the key dd (sin) snuffed it bit earlier than he should have, resulting in the slower time for the kill.
2) My impressions of people on PVP servers *in general*. There is more PK, its a fact, I have checked.
3) The pk on PVP servers seems to be almost exclusively 'gank-type', where groups of people battle each other.
~
Some thoughts.
Given the conditions on PVP servers, you will tend to develop a playstyle suited to group pk. I would say that before the advent of Nation wars, there would be no question that in group pk, we'd expect to find *more* people on PVP servers with high-quality skills. As people they aren't much different, but they will definitely have had more practice working in groups.
However, when comparing the best of each server, I predict you'll find little difference. In terms of pking, the best on a PVE server have to work harder to find challenging PK, but it can still be found, or if not found, arranged. In particular, I imagine that 1vs1 are more common on PVE servers, since the chance of being randomly ganked is much lower. With this in mind, I predict 1vs1, you wouldn't see much difference between the various servers.
With reduced open-world play, and the introduction of Nation Wars, I predict that the skill difference for group pk between PVE and PVP servers will diminish, as various battle instances alternately have you being ganked, or ganking others, much the same way that group pk operates. The PVE server will get the practice they need to make them the equal in this pvp environment to those on a PVP server.
And finally, in terms of being able to complete a PVE instance better on a PVP server, I'd probably say this is due to gear superiority. It would make no sense for PVP servers to be more skilled at PVE in general. There are a lot more people on PVE servers, and they spend a lot more time doing PVE things; again, with more practice in a certain area, you will become better at it than the average.
Cheers,
AeliahYOUTUBE CHANNEL:
youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared
CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411
CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=180279310 -
Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »Some facts.
1) Regarding Dreamweaver's Harpy Wraith performance, the first time around the gms spawned an increased life harpy wraith. Yup, thats right, double the hp, lol. Nonetheless the team of ppl attacked it of course and they were on track to kill it in under 4 minutes. Then the gms being somewhat noob, realized their mistake, and spawned another Harpy, but as I hear it, everybody's apoth was still in cooldown from the first fight, and so the key dd (sin) snuffed it bit earlier than he should have, resulting in the slower time for the kill.
2) My impressions of people on PVP servers *in general*. There is more PK, its a fact, I have checked.
3) The pk on PVP servers seems to be almost exclusively 'gank-type', where groups of people battle each other.
~
Some thoughts.
Given the conditions on PVP servers, you will tend to develop a playstyle suited to group pk. I would say that before the advent of Nation wars, there would be no question that in group pk, we'd expect to find *more* people on PVP servers with high-quality skills. As people they aren't much different, but they will definitely have had more practice working in groups.
However, when comparing the best of each server, I predict you'll find little difference. In terms of pking, the best on a PVE server have to work harder to find challenging PK, but it can still be found, or if not found, arranged. In particular, I imagine that 1vs1 are more common on PVE servers, since the chance of being randomly ganked is much lower. With this in mind, I predict 1vs1, you wouldn't see much difference between the various servers.
With reduced open-world play, and the introduction of Nation Wars, I predict that the skill difference for group pk between PVE and PVP servers will diminish, as various battle instances alternately have you being ganked, or ganking others, much the same way that group pk operates. The PVE server will get the practice they need to make them the equal in this pvp environment to those on a PVP server.
And finally, in terms of being able to complete a PVE instance better on a PVP server, I'd probably say this is due to gear superiority. It would make no sense for PVP servers to be more skilled at PVE in general. There are a lot more people on PVE servers, and they spend a lot more time doing PVE things; again, with more practice in a certain area, you will become better at it than the average.
Cheers,
Aeliah
The thing is that you only see group pk because the uninterrupted 1v1s occur in more remote places in order to be so.
Logical huh?
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PvP is PvE against an intelligent opponent. People who participate in pvp are more skilled than those who do not.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »PvP is PvE against an intelligent opponent. People who participate in pvp are more skilled than those who do not.
i know ur gona act all superiority but i do not agree i remember lots of pkers who sucked so much at pve grind bosses and pve stuff becose they were so focused at pvp.
in particular conqueror become factor for this very reason if i remember corectly
conqueror was more pve based while say bloodlust and yes ragequit was so into pk that they lose there edge in lv as time keept on.
i dont think conqueror was better then say bloodlust but there member hade several player out lving them by far and could harvest the better gear and monopolise it at same time.
you might not been here but i was and i do remember there gap was from there being more pve based and almost to the point of ignoring pk to get better gear.
then also the gank they was better at to.
so again ragequit who pked lots more still lost cos as you say they learn it from there pk victory right.
pk have nothing to do with pve
and plz before you ragequit and act all kid like at least tell me u was there before you come and talk smack.
what faction was u on and when did u evern join lost city0 -
This thread is actually quite interesting.
Personally I believe the "average" PKer from a PvP server is much more skilled than an "average" PKer from a PvE server; several times so.
This would generate the bias that I sometimes see from those who have played PvP servers.
However, when we enter the area of "high PK" - not necessarily endgame gear PvP, but highly skilled PvP - the two types of servers begin to show similarities in their skill levels. There may be fewer nuggets of gold in one rock than another, but the nuggets found are equally pure...
This is why the best PvPers are treated like gods on PvE servers, whereas they're only slightly better than the next Joe on a PvP server.
I've played on two PvE servers and I've visited all servers that this game to offer, and personally, I've seen many people, including me and some of my friends, who vastly outskill most of what PvP servers have to offer. I consider one of my old friends to be on par with Calvin, and I've met a barb who, after 1v1ing him, seems far better than some of the barbs I've seen on LC. I, along with many of my sin friends, and also those sins who play on PvE servers... there are a few PvP server sins who could be considered more skilled (not just equal). Not many, just a few.
I also see the first mention of white name>red name, for once. Technically, the color of your name doesn't represent your PvP skill; I've seen both white and rednamed people who were monsters at PvP. However, I do believe that red name seems to signify less lack of self control. Perhaps I'm biased, but I have a tendency to frown upon those with bloody names.
If you're going to rage against my opinions and try to kill me, you ought to get in line <_< I'm sure plenty of others already want to.Forever overlooked.
Forever forgotten.
Forever alone.
This is a good thing. People don't notice me, and they don't notice the knife whistling towards their throat.0 -
Most PvP on the world map degenerated to charmed duels outside West Arch pretty much. It resembles a duel much more than how PvP servers used to be, which is what was the original reason for why PvP servers were better than PvE in both PvP and PvE.
The reason was basic skills that were a requirement to survive, and weren't overtly needed on PvE. Like radar watching. Groups running FBs with patrolers would notice if it was approaching, like FB51 where the 2 bosses wander to the same larger room. Most PvE groups didn't pay attention, and alot would wipe if the 2nd boss showed up because they would all stand there ignoring it. Where those who are used to watching the radar would see it and move in time to not do so.
It's little things that had a crossover that would prevent a PvE'er from being as good as the PvP'er back in the day. But that was when they could get ganked at any moment, needed to respond and take necessary defense action, weren't fully chi'ed up and charm could be on cooldown, etc. All those had to be accounted for when fighting someone randomly coming up, or even a group coming for a gank.
People might like to pretend that PvPing outside West Arch is as good at PK practice as before, but they are high. That's why I call it charmed dueling. They know it's going to happen, they are usually prepped and chi'ed up fully, and they know what they are facing ahead of time. Heck, DT is more of a PK event than that kind of stuff. And that loss is why the difference won't be as great anymore.0 -
I actually began "radar watching" and "T screen spamming" and "Tab targetting" at an early point in my career, but then again me and my friends were often hunted for PKing <_< We were also ganked a lot when we were talking, or doing dailies, having mini group PvP sessions... you would not believe how many 2v2s that turned into 2+2 vs 6 that I had. So I would argue that your point depends on the situation.
People can acquire PvE skills from PvP and vice versa, and have always done so.Forever overlooked.
Forever forgotten.
Forever alone.
This is a good thing. People don't notice me, and they don't notice the knife whistling towards their throat.0
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