LA or AA?

Arcane is the more effective build for leveling a Veno, your build is fine and can be used for endgame, or you may choose a melee fox build at that point. The culti is not all that relevant, there's very effective demon arcanes.

As for PvP don't knock it until you try it, after level 60 it's your best chance for income through NW.

Pelli - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As a LA veno myself, I can admit it is a very hard path because if you are not careful, you're even squishier than a sin is (which is surprisingly extremely squishy ._.). But, if you plan your things accordingly, like I am planning to do, which is full G16 LA JoSD and G16 Sandy World with two phys def orns (cube neck and warsong belt) and two Cloud Stir for magic defense.

According to what PWcalc has to say to me, I can reach a peak of 25k pdef in fox form (roughly 20k pdef in human form with that logic) and 17k magic def when I'm fully buffed. Now, I know this is not a build anyone can afford, and since I have no sins or archers on my veno's account (although I am planning on making an archer on it eventually), I had to farm and buy everything I needed for my build, which was quite expensive to an extent.

Also, I should make it clear that most of the time, I can keep aggro from an AA veno but then again, if that veno is r9+12, that's prolly not gonna happen. Due to my crit rate being ridiculously high even in human form, my crits are really my extreme peak and I have around 9k-11k magic dmg buffed with a +6 G15 Nirvy magic sword as well as 3.2k-4.5k phys dmg with barb buffs.

I often solo FC and TT, even with those gears, and most of the time I solo FC without my herc for the mobs and only use it for the bosses.

Anyway, to OP, I'm not gonna tell you which path you should go because I believe in free will. However, I displayed here some of the reasons why I have my LA build (awesome dmg due to being demon and crit rate being ridiculously high, decent defence and I have a tendency to survive over many arcane classes and archers and sins for various reasons I cannot fathom).

AA is also a good choice, especially with a good vit build (yes I do prefer that build over pure mag because of survivability and the freedom to shard your stuff with garnets) because you will deliver high end magical dmg, compared to my measly 302 mag base I have on my veno atm. You will also be able to have access to higher -channelling bonuses because of AA gears and you will heal your pets faster. There are ups and downs to every build.

LA is hard and squishy to begin with and eventually becomes quite sturdy when you're endgame.

AA is mostly squishy throughout the whole game but during those times, you're probably act as a support class only (of course I am also a support class even in LA but I can serve as a substitute tank for some instances).

The choice is mainly up to you, really. You're the one playing your toon and you're free to play it however you like to play it.

I used to be an LA build myself a loooong time ago (annnd should've typed it along with my post lol ><)
BUT (as stated above) LA can still work out well for a veno if constructed correctly and with any build to work - will take time and quite a bit coin. It's just that with more classes out there and rank + high grade gear becoming more and more obtainable I and probably many venos thought:

"Meh....**** this *throws LA gear in nearest ditch* b:surrender
LOL

Everyone has a different take on it - we can just give you our view on it. It's up to you on what you wish to do with your veno.

I'd suggest keeping your current build for the time being and maybe add some VIT if you feel the need to.

It's great to know that you're interested in finding the best possible build and you're willing to learn but it may be a little too early b:chuckle

Just play the game as it is and explore it, learn your skills and test your abilities. Over time, you'll find out what build is most suitable for your playstyle and you'll be able to make a better choice then.

I had the luxury of trying out all possible builds and I can say that all can work out quite well but they suit different playstyles and they serve different purposes in PvE, TW and PK.

LA is the only build I don't recommend for it's much weaker than arcane or heavy with endgame gear. In case you already have good gear (sin or archer alt, maybe?) you could work on getting -9% channel belt/necklace and -6% LA bracers.

I do too, used to be an LA venos.However, for some reasons (i forgot what they were), i decided to switch into AA. Surprisingly, AA build is now more convenient for me.

It grants :
- better chanting time which is so important for me ;
- better amount of Max HP (due to more VIT to be added) ;
- absolutely better M.ATK ;
- slightly the same P.DEF (due to Garnet Shards).

Note : In a logical price.

As an LA veno, You can also get what i mentioned above, yet ofcourse with a non-equivalent effort. I mean with a more extra money to be spent than a conventional one.
Or you can also do an Arcane - Light Hybrid which is something that is so stupid for me.
You know what i mean?

Sorry to say

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As far as builds go, defence wise LA is inferior to HA/AA, But can beat AA(kinda durr..) in phy def(as long as both builds use same shards). With same quality gear, the HA build will have superior HP(tho LA is easier to balance defences as g16 is a strong incentive to get 6 pieces of one type) to both builds, but its easier to get higher mag atk in the other rwo builds. Id say think about what you want, and look at what build give you the best result. Im one of the peeps that oppose use of vit builds. the HP gain is around 1.5-2k for a full vit build. Wich youd get with refines on a la build, and keep same mag atk.

b:lipcurl I've got to take issue with your "opposing" vit builds. Right off the bat you're making the mistake of comparing LA to full vit, which very few venos use nowadays, and does matter in real terms of damage output, but more importantly you seem to be missing the point that vit is mainly used for leveling, and as a placeholder build of sorts for endgame. Let me explain, prior to any point at which you would use anything that could be considered high refines (upwards of +5) or would shard JOSD or whatever you would consider your enndgame sharding, hybrid (1 vit per level) or minimal vit builds (1 vit every two levels) will allow a veno to do without any significant investment in either sharding or refining. As you must no doubt know this is not an advisable thing to do for an LA build given their very shallow HP pools and comparatively low phys and mag def. At the level ranges in which surviving through AoE becomes an issue of PvE competence (60-100) this allows for not only significant savings, but the posibility of fully sharding garnets. All things being equal, an LA build would have to invest considerably more in refines to match the survivability of a vit build sharding full phys def. Further, at endgame the extra 600-1200 hp allow the vit veno to more easily reach the around 5.6-6khp that is generally considered minimal to adequately perform at this level range. This comes in especially handy when you consider those upgrading their gear may not want to invest much in transitionals such as TT99, R8 or G15 Vana. Once vit build venos have reached their full endgame the majority will then switch to a pure mag build, which is really what you should compare against in terms of high endgame. Unless you're proposing LA venos should go all out refining G13 Vana...

In endgame terms LA objectively loses in terms of survivability to both HA and AA. It simply can't match the PvP powerhouse performance of HA builds which more than double the LA's phys def, add a ton more HP and get much better DPH figures, the LA does have a natural advantage of in between 2-3% crit rate, but goes against double the base Str for melee damage, further the HA can afford full elemental ornies, which highly refined can outmatch the LA's natural mag res. Compared to an AA build, LA it's pretty much a sitting duck for any caster in the same gear tier, but AA does get pretty close to matching the LA's phys def/HP figures. How much? It should be a lesser advantage than you would get from buffing. Even if the LA build completely disregards any need for further elemental protection than it gets naturally, the advantage it gets over Arcane is not nearly in the same order as the advantage HA gets over it, not in straight phys def or HP. And pure mag Arcane gets near godly DPH when compared to the other two builds, meaning it can very effectively nuke HA and LA builds while holding its own vs other Arcanes. We are talking endgame here, which once you get past TT99 means mostly PvP as everything in that range becomes gross overkill in PvE terms. Now, I'm not trying to knock LA, more often than not I'm posting for it, but in objective terms LA builds are not about defense/survivability. It's ridiculous to try to argue for this and much more so when you're trying to discredit other perfectly viable builds while doing so.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I guess Ive simply been unlucky in my encounters then. Seeing an MP pool of roughly 6.5k on a veno with 8k HP when joining a squad usually have me go "Oh sweet, another HA or LA veno in squad ", to arrive and see the veno in full AA G16. The damage of these venos are low in both ranges, and the HP is wasted on mostly weak AOEs.

So I take it you consider the attack level complect bonus you get from a full G16 Vana set a negligible damage gain, and not in itself OP enough for competent PvE stacked on top of a G16 weapon... Now, I'm not an expert on Dreamweaver Venos, but full vit does seem rare in Sanctuary, which doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate choice. Here's a hint, traditionally it is used for budget PvP. That 6.5k hp figure you quote obviously means this Veno hasn't really worked on refines yet and is certainly not sharding HP, so I don't see anything wrong with her build in terms of progression. And certainly find no legitimate reason for you to have any complaints about squadding with him/her.

As I said earlier, the HP gain from a vit build is relatively easily made up for with refines in a LA build. If you see an AA veno with high refines, and def shards, theyll have less HP than a LA veno with the same shards n refines. As you said: being equal. The AA veno will have more mag def, but in equal refines and sharding; the LA will have more p.def and HP.

Apparently any point I made about cost considerations just didn't register... Also you seem to be missing the point that any advantage LA gets over AA is not just little sigificant but suffers heavily from diminishing returnns, which is an important point to be made when discussing gearing. Case in point TT90 green armor at a +1 refine provides HA with an extra 40HP as opposed to 25HP for AA, LA gets 30HP. This really should help you visualize what the actual difference does amount to. Now, supose I was to shard an extra 25HP on the AA and LA pieces (which is as ridiculous as an example as a +1 refine but illustrates the point) the AA just doubled the HP gain from that piece of gear, While the LA's advantage remains at 5HP, going from something around a 16% advantage to roughly 9% over the AA. You see, using the same shards doesn't benefit both equally, so all things being equal, the better the gear the more negligible any advantage LA gets becomes. Of course, even if you do have the same resources available you won't gear both venos in the same fashion, LA tends to go for interval for instance. Do you think 1-2 pieces short of a full set makes no difference in terms of complect bonuses?

This one confuse me a bit. As I feel you havent really looked that hard into the figures here. The HA veno will actually have a rough time keeping up with the LA mag def. Why? Cause the LA veno got an easier time getting mag stat boost, vit boost and freedom in choice of ornaments. The HA build is more costly to maintain, but at +10 and vit stones, youll top out at around 21-22k buffed. LA builds will hit about 17-18k. Im pulling these numbers out from my own playing, having a friend rolling full G16 LA veno.

Comparing just the top, Awakened Lionheart Armour gets 2250 for a +12 refine, Awakened Ashura's gets 1687 for the same. Yes I do realize you were talking about +10 but as long as we are discussing ridiculously high refines we might as well go all out, I mean already you're doing something wrong if you're refining Vana gear this high instead of going for R9 recasts... This is an advantage of over 500HP for just one piece and this is not factoring in the ridiculously high phys def HA gets in foxform. You've got to be kidding if you think LA comes even close to HA in terms of survivability. And just exactly how do you figure LA gets an "easier time" or any "freedom" in their choices? Yes, HA does have to make up for quite a bit of attribute points (it has gotten a lot easier however) but LA is basically stuck choosing the lesser of various evils, since both its base phys and mag def suck. HA does also get the advantage of massive HP from refines which does translate into better overall survivability. Meaning that the HA doesn't have to shard any vit stones or even work for such high refines just to get over the squishy bump, and can allocate its resources much better than LA, working for something that will improve overall survivability more effectively than just adding HP or mag def, like full JOSD... You can't just pull numbers out of your "own playing" for these discussions, you've got to stick to objective figures, and just making a blank statement that with sufficiently high endgame LA's HP disadvantage becomes a non issue ignores you're not the only one in the field that's competitive. Guess what? Compared to R9rs3 your G16 Vana LA is just as squishy. And this is going against both casters and melees.

On being a sitting duck for casters, in todays R9rr filled envirmonet, most of us are just target practice. But vs. a R9rr caster, my friend performs very well compared to myself, tho he claims he is a slowbie on clicking things. HA venos might have superior physical damage. But in terms of killing things we are, as most BMs and Sins, relying on connected hits to take down targets with melee. His DPH in terms of magic, is so much greater than mine, cause he got an extra 100-150 mag, and significantly higher magic damage(unless sparked, where we even out cause of different cultivations). When fighting R9rr AA, both of us have to rely on magic to actually have a fighting chance. But where I manage to keep em busy for a while, he can kill them. b:surrender

An extra 100-150 mag is near full pure mag, how is your friend managing this with LA? And also, I'm afraid I have to tell you that if you're trying to aps your opponents to death you're doing it wrong. Once again, APS IS NOT A PVP BUILD. If you can't make an HA build work in PvP, well...

Thats their choice. I can see how not investing in gear might save you for a bit of coins. But at lvl 100, I will expect you to perform in one way or the other. And if you come running into a random squad with a +2 TT99 glaive and unsharded, unrefined TT90-99 armor. Then dun cry, if you die on a boss I cant just stand and get smacked by while waiting for you to get back up. Im not saying I wont help people get their gear up. But that exact situation is a bit too common to just ignore nowadays. Especially seeing how easily obtained nirvana gear have become.

This is nothing but leetist bull, not everyone is a no lifer or a heavy CSer and you're right, for many of us this is a matter of choice. Yes, resource management is a part of MMO gaming and this does reflect on being competently geared, but meeting your ridiculous standard that excludes full G16 Vana vit builds is not something many of us are interested in. And as for easily obtainable Vana this just goes to show you demonstrate the attitudes of an out of touch obsessive player. Even if NW has made raps and cannies relatively accessible (you do realize 9xers don't quite get supply tokens in the same numbers as 100+ high endgame) there's still the matter of badges and molds, as well as manufacturing skills you must either level or pay for. Yes to a 1337 player these may seem as only small annoyances, but they can prove real obstacles for those of us with lives and an actual sense of responsability about the money we spend on hobbies...

Im simply saying I disagree with the terms of why youd use a vit build. The HP gain from refining LA, the p.def with same shards and the crit rate are all higher compared to an equal AA build. Its cheaper than HA/AA, and a more balanced(defence wise) build when going all out on one armor type(considering G16 bonus, this is the way to go now). If LA builds were all about 2-3% crit, then it would been entirely dead long ago

Newsflash, LA build for veno is mostly dead... What keeps it going is people with LA alts sharing their gear, which is actually very reasonable, and a few committed players bucking the trend going for melee dps builds, which I actually do respect. More than half the field however, and I am sorry if anyone is offended, are people that got stuck on the "I only want to play fox" mindset (itself a noobish ideal, profficiently using veno requires both forms) and who chose the relatively easier LA route. HA is a specialized PvP build (yes, all venos can be competent in PvE but fox builds are nowhere near as efficient as Arcane) and it's main purpose relates to TW tactics. AA is the more natural veno build (as the one that makes the better use of the more attack/DD oriented caster tree) and vit builds do have their purpose in allowing for better resource management prior to endgame. You refuse to see this point and obviously cannot respect the idea that it is legitimate for some to continue using it even after 100+, which is ironic just seeing how many venos consider LA a fail build. Unlike you I'm not saying there is such a thing as fail builds (we are not discussing stuff like Dex Arcane in here) but I am trying to keep it to rational terms, LA is not about survivability and doesn't get 150 extra stat points to dump into mag. It can't go blow for blow vs melee like HA, and it can't take mag hits and deal mag damage in anything close to what pure mag arcanes can acomplish. It is currently a build with some virtues, but with no niche to fill and so legitimately only an option in terms of experimentation, challenge and uniqueness. And unless you can come up with real figures or otherwise demonstrate how it can significantly outperform the other builds in their specific purposes I don't see any reason to believe otherwise. And please stop it with the critique of vit builds, it doesn't help your cause for LA and you seem intent on ignoring the arguments relevant to their use.

b:sweat

I object! I'm a LA veno and I manage myself more than enough, except against OP archers, psys and wizzies, and even then, it's nothing a few defense charms can't fix.

I needed two BMs, a cleric, a sin and an archer to kill me in NW and one of the bm was g16, that and because I used Blazing Barrier like a pro, rofl. But yes, unless you know what you are doing, LA venos are dead because it's highly impractical if you don't know how to build a LA arcane. I chose it because I like it and it's a change from the "social standards" going around. I just like things when they're a bit more different and challenging. b:cute

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:sweat Are you serial?

b:lipcurl I'm really not trying to pick a fight with LA venos here, I do acknowledge the build as legitimate and have already stated my reasons for doing so, but bs leetist claims only cloud the issue. There is no way you could have resisted for long against two BMs, a Cleric, a Sin and an Archer using Blazing Barrier alone... That all five oponents even managed to all land an attack would be credit enough, but would hardly justify a claim to stating they were "needed" to take you down. Unless of course you're full JOSD +10 R9rs3 in which case it is no merit for you to have resisted against a group that had G16 Vana as its most powerful attacker... Even if we supose most of your oponents were lvl60 noobies you should have simply been overwhelmed and stun-locked to a sufficient extent you never really had a fighting chance. Yes, you could argue using Blazing Barrier "like a pro" means you were stacking it with Bramble Hood, but then it would be misleading for you not to mention where the bulk of your damage reduction came from. I'm not saying Venos cannot fight through being ganked by multiples, I myself have made it through fighting as much as three melee attackers as an arcane, but I only managed to survive through using Hood and with two distinct advantages; 1) I was using a Charm and had damage reduction apos and crabs on auto-pot and 2) all three of my attackers were dumb enough to suicide on reflect. This is just sticking to mentioning the relevant factors and not going into detail for the actual steps in the battle, such as using foxform or a well timed transfussion. It would certainly be unreasonable for any poster to go into detail every time they relate an anecdote, but when you make a claim such as yours there is legitimate expectation to some minimals, as basically what you're saying here is LA is good enough it can easily take on multiples with no other advantages than a measly 30% damage reduction, which is certainly not the case. There's good reason natural LA classes such as Sin or Archer have a reputation for being squishy, whatever other advantages they may hold in PvP...

It's fair enough for you to object to what you may feel is an unaccurate or unfair portrayal of a build you're experienced with, but let's keep the discussion in objective, sober terms and leave ego out of it. An Archer, Psy or Wiz certainly doens't need OP gears to take down an LA veno with relative ease...

Hmm, yes I do believe I am serious.

However, I'm not picking a fight with you. I'm just sharing my experiences in this thread.

Oh and do believe me, there were five people, two bms, a sin, an archer and a cleric on my *** yesterday. I had defense charms, an hp charm, no Bramble Hood, only bramble guard and Blazing Barrier, and a nice looking near 10k pdef in fox form with TT90 orns. And one of the BMs had to use reel-in three times to stop me from kiting since I knew I was going to get skinned eventually anyway. I never thought it'd take them over 5 mins to do it. o_o

Oh, by the way, here's the current build I am using and used yesterday: http://pwcalc.com/3b3b1ec287c9f379

Still, if I had to give people a choice, I'd say go AA, it's much more easier but I'm not giving up my build for anything in the world! o3o

And finally, those were the only three that really did kill me yesterday, other than that, a few clerics did but it was mainly sins that stunned me when getting out of stealth and aps'd me, psys **** my ***, archers facerolling their keyboards on me and wizzies just destroying me xD

LA build is a tough path and it's because of that that it's become a dying build. It's hard to keep up with it unless you have OP gears. AA is way easier to do because it allows you for good DD, good healing, nice M. def at the cost of lower p.def without the use of a Cube and Warsong orns (though Garnets can fill in until you get that).

Pelli - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I object! I'm a LA veno and I manage myself more than enough, except against OP archers, psys and wizzies, and even then, it's nothing a few defense charms can't fix.

I needed two BMs, a cleric, a sin and an archer to kill me in NW and one of the bm was g16, that and because I used Blazing Barrier like a pro, rofl. But yes, unless you know what you are doing, LA venos are dead because it's highly impractical if you don't know how to build a LA arcane. I chose it because I like it and it's a change from the "social standards" going around. I just like things when they're a bit more different and challenging. b:cute

Ahhh reminds me of my TW days as an LA b:victoryb:dirty

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Im simply saying I disagree with the terms of why youd use a vit build. The HP gain from refining LA, the p.def with same shards and the crit rate are all higher compared to an equal AA build. Its cheaper than HA/AA, and a more balanced(defence wise) build when going all out on one armor type(considering G16 bonus, this is the way to go now). If LA builds were all about 2-3% crit, then it would been entirely dead long ago

Although Reikara's guide recommends HA/AA you don't need both sets to excel. Just get all your HA gear and ornaments/cape with plenty of +stat points. To make things even cheaper get a pair of ☆Seal of Eternal Solitude so you don't need to have 2 pairs of rings. rank 8/9 rings however fare a lot better.

LA should be for account stashers who have no other mage on same acct.

Most range tanking is done against mag.

Most dmg for mages is done by mag.