Aggro and Drop Mechanics

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Hello everyone,

From my understanding, there are two ways to generate aggro. The first way is doing damage. This means that out of two DDs, the person who has aggro is most likely doing the most damage. The second way to generate aggro is through the use of skills/effects. Different skills generate a certain amount of aggro, and some skills reset aggro. The person who has aggro is not necessarily doing the most damage if they acquired aggro through the use of these skills. Also, from my understanding, drops from a mob or boss goes to the person or squad that has done the most damage. I mainly wish to inquire about the first method of aggro generation.

I have noticed in events, specifically COA, drops do not necessarily go to the person who have aggro, despite neither person having used any aggro generation skills. However, it is my understanding that the person who has aggro is doing the most damage, and the person who has done the most damage gets the drops. It seems illogical and contradictory for me that someone could have aggro of a boss, yet not get the drops. Is it possible that certain classes generate more aggro simply from auto attacking? Or perhaps characters with more attack levels tend to draw more aggro? Unfortunately, I have not had the chance to investigate too deeply into this.

I am wondering if anyone have any insight on this matter.

Thanks in advance!

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Each hit generates aggro. As well as the amount of damage.

So an AP-spasmo-sin will steal aggro, even if the damage they're doing is pitiful.

Drops go to the squad that did the most damage. Not always the same thing.

There's also the whole "PWI server hiccoughs and doesn't always give timely results, especially when lag is involved" thing (most easily seen with charm ticks, or the lack of them) which means there's effectively a bit of randomness involved.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2013

Pretty sure that pw aggro mechanics have never specifically been released. Everything we have has been gleaned, experimented, and guesstimated by the community over the last 4 1/2 years.

However, I have always suspected things like crits and GoF generate extra hate. I noticed a while back while duoing the my archer had aggro but my bm had done more damage (significantly more). I even went through my damage logs and calculated damage totals and tried to compare them in time increments and my bm was 10-25% ahead in damage and growing, but my lower level archer kept aggro the whole time.

Why? I suspect its because my archer started out with a crit streak. My BM was a higher level and his regulars and aps out dd'd even my archers crit streak, but the crits seemed to generate more aggro.

I also noticed my G15 zerks were out aggroing +20 attack level G15 daggers, even though the person had +12 and I was +10. He clearly should have had more dd and more aggro than me but didn't. I did dps calcs, watched to make sure he was getting at least 14-15 seconds of attack per spark cycle, avoided using frenzy attack, tried to be on the same rotation so we were getting the same debuffs at the same time, and even asked about his build, dex amount, and crit rate. All very similar but I solidly held aggro. This makes me suspect zerking generates a little hate too.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear · January 2013

game needs a sequential drop selection along with its free/random(random sucks to high hell)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2013

OIdpop - Heavens Tear wrote: »

game needs a sequential drop selection along with its free/random(random sucks to high hell)

Agreed. I hate being the only one of the 6 squadmates to pickup drops, but get less than 10% of the drops. Think they should skew it so people who pickup more drops get more drops.

Allisandre - Sanctuary · January 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

...Think they should skew it so people who pickup more drops get more drops.

No, because then you're **** every cleric and ranged DD'er out of drops.

Random drops need to be distributed more evenly is all.

Salari - Raging Tide · January 2013

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, because then you're **** every cleric and ranged DD'er out of drops.

Random drops need to be distributed more evenly is all.

No that is only **** over people that don't pick up drops. They do not have to walk a mile to get to the drops. With most squads I go in the ranged DD/healers get there before I do and I am right on top of the boss. b:chuckle

hfluzjrpsy · January 2013

OIdpop - Heavens Tear wrote: »

game needs a sequential drop selection along with its free/random(random sucks to high hell)

It doesnt need to be sequential. Server just need to check how many drops each squad member got and random between those who got less drops atm.

When a new squad member join, that counter is reseted.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2013

All these complex suggestions on randomising loot is just BEGGING someone to come along and game the system.

Random works out fine in the long run.

And I agree - no one knows the exact aggro formula; but there's been a fair bit of investigation and work done to reverse engineer it.

Salari - Raging Tide · January 2013

As many private servers running around you figured someone would have reversed engineered some aspects of the game by now, since we get no info from PW at all. It is all trial and error.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear · January 2013

hfluzjrpsy wrote: »

It doesnt need to be sequential. Server just need to check how many drops each squad member got and random between those who got less drops atm.

When a new squad member join, that counter is reseted.

No we do need a sequential setting the drops will be processed by turn.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · January 2013

And this will instantly lead to ninja'mc'looter to doing a "drop a single coin, pick it up; and now the mold is mine" tricks.

Bad bad idea.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Each hit generates aggro. As well as the amount of damage.

So an AP-spasmo-sin will steal aggro, even if the damage they're doing is pitiful.

Drops go to the squad that did the most damage. Not always the same thing.

There's also the whole "PWI server hiccoughs and doesn't always give timely results, especially when lag is involved" thing (most easily seen with charm ticks, or the lack of them) which means there's effectively a bit of randomness involved.

But the aggro generated depends on the damage dealt right? So 5 hits doing 10k each vs 1 hit that does 60k. The 60k should still have aggro? And the person that did 60k should get the drops. Do I understand correctly?

And yeah, lag is definitely an issue. Though, I think its strange that PWI calculated a change in aggro, but not a change in damage if that's the case.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pretty sure that pw aggro mechanics have never specifically been released. Everything we have has been gleaned, experimented, and guesstimated by the community over the last 4 1/2 years.

However, I have always suspected things like crits and GoF generate extra hate. I noticed a while back while duoing the my archer had aggro but my bm had done more damage (significantly more). I even went through my damage logs and calculated damage totals and tried to compare them in time increments and my bm was 10-25% ahead in damage and growing, but my lower level archer kept aggro the whole time.

Why? I suspect its because my archer started out with a crit streak. My BM was a higher level and his regulars and aps out dd'd even my archers crit streak, but the crits seemed to generate more aggro.

I also noticed my G15 zerks were out aggroing +20 attack level G15 daggers, even though the person had +12 and I was +10. He clearly should have had more dd and more aggro than me but didn't. I did dps calcs, watched to make sure he was getting at least 14-15 seconds of attack per spark cycle, avoided using frenzy attack, tried to be on the same rotation so we were getting the same debuffs at the same time, and even asked about his build, dex amount, and crit rate. All very similar but I solidly held aggro. This makes me suspect zerking generates a little hate too.

I have suspected something like this too. Your archer-BM scenario is similar to a result i received, except with a bm vs sin. My calculation states that the BM should have done more damage as the bm both had higher refines, more attack levels, as well as more crits. Yet the "archer", or sin in this case, seemed to have gotten the drops, despite the BM holding aggro the entire time.

This does somewhat confirm with what I suspect that other factor affects aggro generation. However, have you managed to do a similar testing result with two people outside of squad? Did the person who have aggro get the drops? Or did the other person managed to get it?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · January 2013

First hit counts more then other hits. While its generally true that the person who deals the most actual damage on the mob will get the drops. But lets say you got the first hit in and only manage to deal 49% of the damage. While some guy comes around and gets 51% of the damage. You'll get the drops with 49% damage just because you for the first hit in.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Agreed. I hate being the only one of the 6 squadmates to pickup drops, but get less than 10% of the drops. Think they should skew it so people who pickup more drops get more drops.

You obviously didn't think to cleric when you said that.

Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, because then you're **** every cleric and ranged DD'er out of drops.

Random drops need to be distributed more evenly is all.

^that.

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

No that is only **** over people that don't pick up drops. They do not have to walk a mile to get to the drops. With most squads I go in the ranged DD/healers get there before I do and I am right on top of the boss. b:chuckle

You obviously never did spawn GV, the cleric can't drop BB to go pick the drops cause the second the boss die the next wave is coming.

Caster already can't farm anything anymore and you want to make them get less drops cause they are ranged.

If you try to show you are selfish good job.

ovenusarmanio · January 2013

Random drops in squads are random. Overtime you'll average out the same number of drops as everyone else more or less, with some people getting a bit lucky and some getting worse. The problem here I think is a perception issue. I don't think the game differentiates between a mold/book and a dq item and a quiver of arrows. You may feel like you got no drops but your bag could be filled with arrows because you got the short end of the random stick. It happens. It doesn't mean you're didn't get drops, it means that you got lousy drops. Those count too in total drops received. If it was a perfect roll where everyone got something and it was random, you would not be receiving anything 5/6 times.

As for who gets it when you're not in party, I think it also has to do with who started attacking the mob first. But I'm not sure. I have seen it go plenty of times though that a person who came in late, even if they steal aggro, doesn't get the drops. Though I'm not actually sure. I remember reading a thread on this once, but can't find it.b:surrender

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2013

Barring aggro skills, the person who has aggro is the individual who deals the most damage.
The drops are pickable by the squad who deals the most damage though. It is possible that the individual who deals the most damage is not in this squad.

For example, a single R9+12 player can't take the drops from an entire squad of 10 R9+11 players even though the R9+12 will have aggro.

Salari - Raging Tide · January 2013

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

You obviously never did spawn GV, the cleric can't drop BB to go pick the drops cause the second the boss die the next wave is coming.

Caster already can't farm anything anymore and you want to make them get less drops cause they are ranged.

If you try to show you are selfish good job.

Not only have I done spawn GV I have done it plenty of times. There is plenty of time between bosses, and anyway I was joking about that comment I posted.

I always love the "casters cant farm anything line" No casters are generally just lazy and don't know how to save coins or make squads. My first character here is a caster and I made plenty of coins. I joined random squads and hey I even bought some tele's and formed my own and I made plenty of coins and still do. Most of the experience I got in this game was leveling from 90-95 inside TT more so than FCC.

Am I selfish? Ask the dozens and dozens of people I help farm their gear over the years. I spend more time helping others than my myself.

Even if I was selfish TO BAD BUY MORE TELE"S

It is sad to see posts like this. Someone new to the game or considering coming to this game would think melee classes start off at 101 with facerolling gear and they do not have to work for it at all. OMG THE HORROR!

I worked hard for my cleric, sin, barb and psy. Stop spreading this filth because you are to lazy.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · January 2013

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

Not only have I done spawn GV I have done it plenty of times. There is plenty of time between bosses, and anyway I was joking about that comment I posted.

The cleric that drop BB to go pick drop in the middle of a group of mobs is a idiot cleric.
After you kill the boss the mobs appear, on non-spawn yes cleric have time to drop BB and pick drop than set up BB again, but in spawn no.

My comment about being selfish wasn't directed to you personally, but to people that think people that pick should get more drops, cause that would mean ranged/caster and cleric would got less cause not directly on the boss.

Could the random mode of drop be better? Yes ofc, but not in the way to give advantage to melee toons over ranged/caster and cleric.

Yes it's unfair when someone that was afk all the time and come back at the middle of the boss get the good mold while others worked harder, but I think there's not possible perfect system for it, cause we have ranged/caster and cleric.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Barring aggro skills, the person who has aggro is the individual who deals the most damage.
The drops are pickable by the squad who deals the most damage though. It is possible that the individual who deals the most damage is not in this squad.

For example, a single R9+12 player can't take the drops from an entire squad of 10 R9+11 players even though the R9+12 will have aggro.

Yeah that's what I gathered. However in my case, there are only two DDs competing, so they are not affected by external damage from other squad members. So logically I'd assume that the person who has aggro should get the drops, but yet that was not the case. Have you had any such experience before?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First hit counts more then other hits. While its generally true that the person who deals the most actual damage on the mob will get the drops. But lets say you got the first hit in and only manage to deal 49% of the damage. While some guy comes around and gets 51% of the damage. You'll get the drops with 49% damage just because you for the first hit in.

That is interesting. Do you know to what extent this affects aggro mechanics though? Is it only a few % difference? Or can it be something major?

Jaabg - Sanctuary · January 2013

Just a quick note. Not sure how true this is. It seems in coa, the first person to hit the boss tends to get the drops. I have yet to get my two alts in the same room. But i have heard people QQ how a 4 aps, g13 sin took mats, over a g15 zerk int 5 aps sin, same refines. I could be totally wrong on this though.

COA = filled with mean people. They think they own the spots.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a quick note. Not sure how true this is. It seems in coa, the first person to hit the boss tends to get the drops. I have yet to get my two alts in the same room. But i have heard people QQ how a 4 aps, g13 sin took mats, over a g15 zerk int 5 aps sin, same refines. I could be totally wrong on this though.

COA = filled with mean people. They think they own the spots.

I have heard something of that sorts. But it doesn't seem to make sense why things would behave differently in CoA than regular instances. Are the bosses in there set to calculate drops differently?

Liveena - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Hmm, random drops and random agro.

I've been on a BH69 with a squad, one of the member have an alt in squad and was put on follow. The alt, off course, didn't contribute much to the boss killing, but ALL the drop from boss goes to him b:shocked.

Also when helping a bh69 squad, I was killing nob with two barb who are spaming flash ream while my BM poke it with dual axes and sometimes throwing HF. I still got the agro even without using aps gear nor demon spark b:surrender. As the barbs start screaming to me to stop stealing their agro, I demon sparked, errupt, HF then use claw to poke nob to death. There, no more agro stealing with dead boss. b:angry

Btw, does luring a boss with zeal count as first hit?

Illyn - Raging Tide · February 2013

OIdpop - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No we do need a sequential setting the drops will be processed by turn.

Not sequencial cause it's too predictable, u can pick in an sequence that all good items comes to you. That's why I proposed random to those who got less drops.

TCHP - Lost City · February 2013

I don't think the damage has anything to do whit agroo.

Each skill mush have a point they give to the treath level. Just like bm and barb have skill the increase the treath level.

For instence, cleric will steal agroo for using healing or debuff skill cause the skill would give let say 50 treath point compared to the 1st barb attack that gives 30. So cleric steal agroo untill barb hit again.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · February 2013

TCHP - Lost City wrote: »

I don't think the damage has anything to do whit agroo.

Each skill mush have a point they give to the treath level. Just like bm and barb have skill the increase the treath level.

For instence, cleric will steal agroo for using healing or debuff skill cause the skill would give let say 50 treath point compared to the 1st barb attack that gives 30. So cleric steal agroo untill barb hit again.

That would fail to justify the reason why APS sins almost always steal aggro then. Damage has to generate aggro for it to make sense.

Currently, it seems more people agree that attacking the mob first has an effect in determining the drop rate. Has anyone had the chance to test this, or know the extent of this effect?

On another note, I think this thread has somewhat gone off track. The original purpose of this thread was to discuss why there is an inconsistency between the distribution of drops vs the distribution of aggro. Would a mod kindly separate the discussion about drop selection to it's own separate thread please? I think that would clean up the discussion a bit more. Thanks~

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver · February 2013

More specifically in a setting of coa where it is one dd competeing against another with no outside help and yet the one who has aggro for the majority of the time(esp towards the end) does not always get the drops.

Generally, It does seem to make a difference to hit first. It is very hard to tell though cause alot of sins do very close to the same amount of dps over time. Even if the weapons are not equal, the stats,gems/type make up for it.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · February 2013

Also mobs can't switch targets if they are in the middle of channeling a skill or in an attack animation. If someone steals aggro during this time right before the mob dies you won't be able to tell. This means you can't say for certain you are the one with the most aggro when the mob dies.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · February 2013

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a quick note. Not sure how true this is. It seems in coa, the first person to hit the boss tends to get the drops. I have yet to get my two alts in the same room. But i have heard people QQ how a 4 aps, g13 sin took mats, over a g15 zerk int 5 aps sin, same refines. I could be totally wrong on this though.

COA = filled with mean people. They think they own the spots.

I don't think so cause if that was the case some people would just run hit the boss the first and wait for other people to kill them to pick drop.

Temeilion - Harshlands · February 2013

Haha whats it matter how fairly you split 0 ? lol

Zsw - Dreamweaver · February 2013

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also mobs can't switch targets if they are in the middle of channeling a skill or in an attack animation. If someone steals aggro during this time right before the mob dies you won't be able to tell. This means you can't say for certain you are the one with the most aggro when the mob dies.

True. I can't recall the time it takes for CoA mobs to attack/channel, but with 2 APS DDs on a COA boss they tend to die pretty fast. I don't know the details of the mob death with regards to whether or not it was channeling a skill. I'll let you know if i find out.

Aggro and Drop Mechanics

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