Would you like to see Fox form revamped?

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Basicly been something that annoyed me up thru the levels is the weakness of fox form melee skills. In the light of other classes able to deal two types of damage rather effectively, wouldnt it be a bit nice for the veno to get more even grounds on that as well? Pet and set damage numbers are for a time pre-dating R9 casters with 10k HP. While both seekers and archers can deal elemental damage based on physical attack, venos are confined to splitting this up into using both phy and mag attack. Im NOT saying to give venos mag atk damage on fox form skills. But would it hurt to increase damage or maybe the duration/power of the debuffs these skills provide?

What does other venos think about fox form skills(other than amp and purge) would need for revitalizing?

Regenbogen - Lost City · January 2013

but but but we got those shiny blue flames, a cute bird, a tiger and a scaaaaary scarecrow, not to forget the faster pet res! b:shutup

Pelli - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Well, first of all, as a LA veno and since I use both forms at will depending on the situation, I would certainly like to see Malefic Crush get reviewed and re-balanced. I mean, it's a two spark MELEE attack, with an awesome debuff, that deals absolutely nothing in terms of dmg. The highest I've ever hit with that skill in FC was 11k, which is what I do with Venomous Scarab, a skill that requires no sparks at all.

Also, another skill I would like to see re-balanced is Consume Spirit because let's face it, it does absolutely nothing at all except for restoring some of your MP. Sure, it deals melee damage, which sucks anyway because venos don't have as many melee bonuses as any other melee classes out there.

And those are ultimately the two skills I would like to see revamped one day, although that will pretty much never happen.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

I think a revision of Fox form skills should certainly be in order, but I see this as something very unlikely. For one Veno already is one of the classes that benefited the most from the recent Sirens update, and the planned pet upgrade should be upping damage outputs which, given the way the class is intended to work, does make for a better solution.

This is not to say the fox skill tree is not in need of some atention. Most of our fox skills are ridiculously gimped and situational, which has only been made worse by the power creep (these skills are largely based upon fixed damage) as well as relatively much more efficient capabilities being given to the new two races. Along with BMs we have probably been hurt the most as the original classes with the larger number of skills. I must say however that I don't think the fox skill tree was ever meant to work as an equivalent to caster in terms of damage output, it is mostly effect based so while I do believe upward revissions of damage are somewhat necessary, it's the effects that really need to be updated in order to make fox skills significant. Here are my notes on what I would consider balanced upgrades considering the relative strenghts of other classes. Do keep in mind that on any given fight you simply can't use everything at once and that I'm merely expressing my opinion on what it would take to make the skills useful.

Foxform - An increase in melee damage output, say 10%, would only seem fair, especially as technically this can only be used with magic weapons and Venos lack the advantages all other melee classes get.

Fox Wallop - This should be changed to an interrupt plus 3 sec silence effect, the slower channeling is simply too negligible an effect, especially considering the chi cost.

Beffudling Mist - A 50% slow effect for both cultis is needed to make this one useful, loss of accuracy simply isn't enough. It would certainly encourage using fox on mass PvP.

Stunning Blow - The effect should be reduced in duration and made into an actual stun.

Leech - This one should have stolen HP work as a percentage of damage dealt, 20% seems about right to me, and both cultis should get 100% chance for stealing. This would somehow make up for our not getting access to BP, which is only far.

Consume Spirit - Mp gain should be 50% with the offset HP loss raising to 25%. This would make it worth using but balanced in terms of risk.

Malefic Crush - This one should be raised to an 80% mana burn. It may seem OP, but given charms and auto potting is the only way to make it at least an annoyance worth using.

Purge - No change recommended.

Amplify Damage - No change recommended.

Soul Degeneration - It should be made to prevent all forms of healing or HP gain except for pots and charm ticks.

Crush Vigour - Chi loss should be incresed to 20 per hit in order to make it truly significant.

b:lipcurl Use for most of these skills would still remain highly situational. I don't see this happening any time soon however...

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Fox Wallop, Consume Spirit, Stunning Blow, Crush Vigor, Soul Degeneration and Malefic Crush are 6 of the most useless skills ever.

Fox Wallop - very weak damage, debuff doesn't last long at all, chi usage makes it even less usable. Kept mine at lvl 1.

Consume Spirit - slow skill that drains a lot of HP for a minimal MP gain. Perhaps devs forgot Venos have low HP but a ton of MP. Mine at lvl 1.

Stunning Blow - it's not stunning at all. It freezes at the insane cost of 1 spark. Would be a bit better if it had some decent AOE range and a stunning effect rather than freeze. Mine at lvl 10 but I don't use it. Got the sage book but saving the coins is much a better deal.

Crush Vigor - totally worthless except for the demon version. even then the debuff on its own is absolutely useless.

Soul Degeneration - another useless debuff, except for the sage version. the effect is so lame any decent veno will override it with amplify straight away.

Malefic Crush - looks nice. Takes too long to channel/cast for a melee skill, costs 2 sparks, damage is rather hillarious. Even though I'm HA and have tons of strength my Parasitic Nova hits more than twice as much as Malefic Crush and the MP debuff is just plain useless.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

b:lipcurl I wouldn't go so far as calling Stunning Blow useless, it certainly has good uses on both PvE and PvP. Along with Leech I would consider it one of the few fox attack skills worth using. If i did propose turning it into a stun, it is because we don't have something that's really a go to hit in Fox.

OO_Venus_Oo - Momaganon · January 2013

The only thing i would like to see the fox form get a little range for normal attack... In nw if someone tries to run from me i cant do anything just running after him like an idiot b:pleased

Desdi - Sanctuary · January 2013

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Foxform - An increase in melee damage output, say 10%, would only seem fair, especially as technically this can only be used with magic weapons and Venos lack the advantages all other melee classes get.

Fox Wallop - This should be changed to an interrupt plus 3 sec silence effect, the slower channeling is simply too negligible an effect, especially considering the chi cost.

Beffudling Mist - A 50% slow effect for both cultis is needed to make this one useful, loss of accuracy simply isn't enough. It would certainly encourage using fox on mass PvP.

Stunning Blow - The effect should be reduced in duration and made into an actual stun.

Leech - This one should have stolen HP work as a percentage of damage dealt, 20% seems about right to me, and both cultis should get 100% chance for stealing. This would somehow make up for our not getting access to BP, which is only far.

Consume Spirit - Mp gain should be 50% with the offset HP loss raising to 25%. This would make it worth using but balanced in terms of risk.

Malefic Crush - This one should be raised to an 80% mana burn. It may seem OP, but given charms and auto potting is the only way to make it at least an annoyance worth using.

Purge - No change recommended.

Amplify Damage - No change recommended.

Soul Degeneration - It should be made to prevent all forms of healing or HP gain except for pots and charm ticks.

Crush Vigour - Chi loss should be incresed to 20 per hit in order to make it truly significant.

b:lipcurl Use for most of these skills would still remain highly situational. I don't see this happening any time soon however...

I like these ideas o.o
I generally agree that Fox Form skills could use a revamp and be changed towards being more debuff-oriented since the skills themselves aren't really all that strong in PvP damage-wise.

They are pretty decent in PvE with debuffs even for AA build Venomancers but in PvP the main reason I drop to Fox Form is for the debuffs and not for the damage per se.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · February 2013

As far as damage go, replacing static damage with % would do alot for most venos. But what I originallynmeant is that we would do good with a status alignment upgrade. i use alot of fox form, being HA, and in PvE I hardly find myself using skills. If any, I use stunning blow to stop runners or people in pvp.

Changing stunning blow into a stun would **** the demons over. As their already stuns for a short time. But by making demon "normal" and increase their stun duration for demons would be a good deal to me.

Worst skill is without a doubt the fox wallop, the debuff is entirely useless. With a seal and interrupt it would give any veno that moves in for purge or amp some protection from their target. I love that idea.

Sage vigor isnt entirely useless, as its enough chi drain to compensate for a barbs chi on hit skill. It also kills off chi for any apser hitting bramble.

Malefic crush is laughable damage for two sparks. The sage version with chaotic spirit have some uses. But the mp drain isnt worth the two sparks I can use to seal and freeze an enemy for enough time to either kill or simply keep in place(darn r9rr casters <.<)

thumbs · February 2013

Considering I still hit mobs in delta with fox skills for what my wiz use to when it was primary aoe dd for full runs; I'd say no. Also: keeping aggro on mobs in delta over a G16 +9 seeker shouldn't be so easy. You're basically asking them to make veno more OP than it already is.

Try playing a wiz if you think veno is gimped in any way.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · February 2013

thumbs wrote: »

Considering I still hit mobs in delta with fox skills for what my wiz use to when it was primary aoe dd for full runs; I'd say no. Also: keeping aggro on mobs in delta over a G16 +9 seeker shouldn't be so easy. You're basically asking them to make veno more OP than it already is.

Try playing a wiz if you think veno is gimped in any way.

I agree with him. See some people say how OP is venomancers and see other complain they need more make me thing some people don't know the potential of their class.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · February 2013

Honestly, you either had a really weak wiz, or you had way more str on your veno than me.

lvl 11 fox wallop deals base physical damage +3059. The debuff is reduce casting n channeling by 35% for 3 seconds, and cost 20 chi. For an avereage veno that would probably sum up to 7k damage. While double for a HA veno. Basic wood magic is 100% wep damage +2534. Wich alone beats the static numers of fox attacks, and most venos already have a higher mag than phy atk. Youre saying your wizard is a weaker caster than most venos?

thumbs · February 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Honestly, you either had a really weak wiz, or you had way more str on your veno than me.

tt99 +10; way better than average at the time

lvl 11 fox wallop deals base physical damage +3059.

Why would you mention that in a discussion of RB?

The debuff is reduce casting n channeling by 35% for 3 seconds, and cost 20 chi. For an avereage veno that would probably sum up to 7k damage. While double for a HA veno. Basic wood magic is 100% wep damage +2534. Wich alone beats the static numers of fox attacks, and most venos already have a higher mag than phy atk. Youre saying your wizard is a weaker caster than most venos?

What debuff? It doesn't matter if magic dmg is better than phys dmg if you're doing no dmg otherwise. 4k AoE on 8+ mobs is better than your 20k on a single mob or no dmg at all.

Wizard a weaker caster? - I've been saying that for a long time; where have you been? Wizard is more of a tank than a caster dd. Especially the sage wizard with Dragon's Breath or Demon with Stone Barrier. Wizard has good spike dmg, but for sustainable 1-1 dd or debuff: veno wins by far. Ranged AoE veno is on par if not slightly better. Sustainable close range AoE is arguable.

If there was any improvement to a class that I'd like to see in game: it would be the cleric in it's chi and mp recovery.

ZulaBeeBad - Momaganon · February 2013

How about newer Pets for venos, or allow some to be tamed that are in the Line of pets. There are certain types in area that are like the tamables but aren't! Finally how about some newer Rares that are closer to the Herc or Nix the Old standbys or OK but for some of us that can't afford Herc and Nix A stronger pet would be Nice even at Lower Levels!!!!

Cellerus - Archosaur · February 2013

thumbs wrote: »

tt99 +10; way better than average at the time

How many years ago was this?

thumbs wrote: »

If there was any improvement to a class that I'd like to see in game: it would be the cleric in it's chi and mp recovery.

Yea, l'd like to see that too. A increase in chi and mp recovery in my cleric would make him the most op class in terms of pot usage. The only two cleric skills that rely heavly on chi are tempest and bb.(tempest can't be spammed anyways) My pure mag cleric can heal in any bh with only divine order pots. b:chuckle

tweakz · February 2013

Cellerus - Archosaur wrote: »

Yea, l'd like to see that too. A increase in chi and mp recovery in my cleric would make him the most op class in terms of pot usage. The only two cleric skills that rely heavly on chi are tempest and bb.(tempest can't be spammed anyways) My pure mag cleric can heal in any bh with only divine order pots. b:chuckle

-you need pots b:chuckle

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · February 2013

I am an HA veno so fox skills prob work differently for me than LA or AA, anyway...

Fox skills do need some love but I would not say they need a ton of it. The skills that need the most help are fox wallop and Malefic Crush

Fox wallop is useless, with -% chan and huge damage output of casters, I get fried before I get close enough to use it (Bewitch can help but not for long), even if I could use it it only last 3 sec. Thats what? 1 spell? With the added chi cost I don't even have it on my skill list. Don't know how to improve it, but it might be worth using if it didn't cost 20 chi a swing.

Maleific crush isn't a bad skill, but it could be better. The damage is a little weak but 15-20k damage isn't terrible, though for 2 sparks it is expenisve. The debuff that is supposed to compensate for the damage is what's useless. With charms and high level pots 1800 mana isn't going to make anyone blink. Change it to a bleed effect, that would take care of the cost and damage problems.

Leech needs to be improved. 600-800 hp per hit was good 3-4 yrs ago these days with zerc and nuke damage these numbers need to be increased.

Lastly, I would disagree that damages should be changed to a percent. The reason fox skills are base damage instead of percent is so arcane venos have damage when they use fox attacks, granted alot of them rarely go fox except to debuff, but it would be even worse for them if the damage was based off of a percent. At higher levels, and S3, the base damage does become limiting for both AA and HA but <90lvl base damage is better than %. All in all the overall damage calculation for fox venos is what needs to be improved. But since that requires actual work people don't have to pay gold for don't count on seeing it, ever.

KingClawX - Lost City · March 2013

to be fair if venos cast skill are % based so should the fox form skill be to.

that is only fair in any case.

just cos most veno play it 99% as pure caster dont make it true.

and if your not into fox form much you wont see much difference anyways.

only thing this would effect are for the fox form lovers.

b:pleased yay fox form

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear · March 2013

I dont see why there should be a change. fox form is meant for debuff/and or speed if you are veno. idk how you play urs. but, i only debuff/purge/seal in fox form then get to human to kill, then boom everything's dead. venos dont need to be revamped unless they revamp every other class.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont see why there should be a change. fox form is meant for debuff/and or speed if you are veno. idk how you play urs. but, i only debuff/purge/seal in fox form then get to human to kill, then boom everything's dead. venos dont need to be revamped unless they revamp every other class.

They did revamp every other class when the Morai expansion came out. Venos got some attention at that time but largely got the short end of the stick and fox form didn't get touched at all. I agree that as a dual class it would be difficult to balance it given the wide range of stats and armor options venos have, maybe with the new pet system coming out it will solve some of the fox damage issues.

Would you like to see Fox form revamped?

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