Choosing between two sins

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

My question is with these 4 weapons, what would the DPS be and what the pros/cons would be with the sage/demon skills that i can get ( or already have ) i.e. BP/powerdash/rib strike/tidal etc.

Well, you can treat the 25% damage reduction on Sage Spark as +33% hp.

In terms of DPS, I am personally of the opinion that once you're talking +10 refines, the dps figures are not relevant.

I was going to do the numbers with a spreadsheet, but I noticed that I lost the sheet somewhere. I'll fiddle with a spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

Sage:
Barrier thorns +10, 1 exclusive garnet: 116,624 dps
Dark Death thorns, sac/GoF+ int +10, 1 exclusive garnet: 124,090 dps
G16 daggers, 1x int, 1x 19 dex +10, 1x exclusive garnet: 151,749 dps
R9 daggers +10, 2x exclusive garnet shard: 148,688 dps

Demon:
Barrier thorns +10, 1 exclusive garnet: 145,999 dps
Dark Death thorns, sac/GoF+ int +10, 1 exclusive garnet: 177,120 dps
G16 daggers, 1x int, 1x 19 dex +10, 1x exclusive garnet: 216,608 dps
R9 daggers +10, 2x exclusive garnet shard: 198,072 dps

Even I dislike comparing cultis as "this one if you're rich, this one if you're poor" but it sometimes does boil down to that. You pretty accurately stated that you'd be trading effective hp for dps, but if your demon's effective hp is higher enough then may as well look at dps.

I typically suggest sage for lower refined or farming alts that will not see above +6 gear. The 25% reduction offers them survivability that demons need to get with their gear. So even though it might take a little longer it still gets the job done.

Demons dont get that reduction, but they tend to average 25-50% higher dps. That means similar amounts of paint heals even with demon paint and the ability to triple spark more often to resist special attacks, purges, stuns... They also have demon rib so they're attacked less. But, they're still prone to being 1-3 shot without the spark reduction. So they need to refine to prevent dieing.

Sages, slower but effective. Demon, faster but requires better refines.

And G16s with be your best cost:dps weapon. G15 to G16 is an EoO, 2m, and badges but offers 27k more dps if sage and 39k dps if demon. You'll have an easier time getting -int G16s than you will have getting zerk+int G15s, too.

For farming, there really isn't a huge difference between sage and demon skills, other than the obvious bloodpaint. One reason Olba may have mentioned dps not making a huge difference at +10 is the difference between sage and demon paint on a [?] boss is sage gives about 9k between each hit and demon gives about 6k. Unless I'm taking a ton of damage I'm fully healed with either bloodpaint. Demon Ribstrike will make a difference in survivability, and sage Ribstrike will save you about 3 seconds. Sage PD is nice, but user optional. I hardly use PD on either my sage or demon sins because goin from a 38% crit to a 78 or 88% crit is less than the increase I get from Subsea, further more I'd rather save my Inner Harmony for defensive manuevers. Its up to the individual player but for me PD is almost useless in PvE, good in PvP. Tidal and Focused mind clearly favor sage.

With those refines I'd lean towards demon farmer, sage buff ****.

If you already have those base gears, just get g.16 nv3rd with the demon sin or if you want to be cheap +10 any of those daggers would be efficient. If you're doing purely 3-3, you're going to want to have the extra chi from the 5aps for the bosses's that can debuff you every minute or so. I don't have any experience playing as a sage, but you'd just have to depend more on pots/ domain/ and building chi ahead of time + you're tankier. I didn't have any problems surviving w/ barely 10k hp & 8k phy def. before i upgraded so you should be fine. Good luck

I get where you come with the dps comment but imo it`s fairly misleading. Difference between R8/G13 and G16 is just massive, no other word for it. Calling difference between that dps irrelevant is just silly to me. I can see distinct difference even between G16 +10 and +11, I think it gives me 1 more boss in CoA. Speaking of CoA, dunno other servers but on archo, unless you are +10, it might be difficult to find boss for yourself. There`s just so many G16s, R9s and G13/15 +10s that unless you got high tier daggers, you need high refines to compensate.

And really, the time needed less in absolute sense is bit effy comparison to what +10 daggers give. Still, I got easily bout 15min off when using my G16 daggers instead of R8 ones, at +10, when clearing FC till xp room. I think I take, with G16+11 bout 22-25mins to clear there, including clearing halls till turn to xp room. One thing though, with G16+10 it`s easy to not glitch bubble boss and avoid purges on bishop. I know I myself used barb as eating purges on bishop boss, when I was using R8s, thus I had to clear more of the instance. Then again I hypered the big pull(mobs before and after bishop boss) on both toons so maybe the extra time spent instead of soloing wasnt such a bad idea.

Point is how while there might be some figure which seems like sufficient, it might be that but G16/R9 at high refines are just gamebreaking, making things not only fair bit faster but easier.

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

I found two pairs of OP daggers for sale on harshlands, one G16 +11 ( actually my old daggers xD ) and a zerk int +12, both for 450 mil. i think purely from a PvE standpoint the G16's will be better

I agree.

Just to add to the dps vs survivability discussion. I usually use my bm to solo and there are some special attacks that will get you killed. Steelation, for example. I might dodge his first or second aps, but then his third time he might chains a sleep and aps combo and kill me. Or even GBA boss. I'm pretty good at seeing his shouts and sparking through his purges, but eventually I'll have just sparked and he purges and now I'd have to rebuff. Sometimes its chained with his stun or his huge magic attack. Or Ministers constant sleeps. I can get myself back to 100% hp from paint heals in between sleeps most times, but sometimes its too many sleeps with not enough paint heals.

My point is the longer a boss fight lasts the more likely it is you'll die, so dps and killing faster has its purposes in survivability.

It also has its point in just being lazy. My BM likes to solo 2-3 and I can either cancel Wurlords attacks or try to heal 100% between each magic attack. With +10 weapon I'm just shy of being full health but with a +11 I no longer need to interupt him because I get full hp between his attacks from paint heals alone. Spark macro ftw.

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

@WnbTank i didn't ask for a DPS comparison straight up, i wanted to see what the DPS difference would be, with in mind the sole purpose of running TT 3-x. So his point which most people don't seem to get is that the DPS incrase of different daggers might make the bosses go 1 min faster, but you are running around the instance more then killing bosses. so the time gain on the whole instance would be 4 minutes, while the price difference would be 200 mil between daggers.

i specifically didn't ask for full combo's also for the fact to not turn this into a whole use this or that combo conversation. so i got what i needed and made up my mind.

I found two pairs of OP daggers for sale on harshlands, one G16 +11 ( actually my old daggers xD ) and a zerk int +12, both for 450 mil. i think purely from a PvE standpoint the G16's will be better

I was refering to olblaze and his comment bout how dps figures werent relevant at +10. While I understand his point, how any dagger really can be enough to solo pretty much anything at that refine. Or how with high refines time running from boss to boss will take bigger impact on time spent. My point, however is that while bosses die quickly anyways and running is big part of instance, dps still takes quite a chunk of relative time, making it easier to do multiple runs in day. And honestly, the quicker instance is done, the easier it is to motivate yourself with it.

My example on easier is FC - I can kill bubble boss so many glitch with simply triple sparking on start, maze steps, counting for third attack animation after maze is over to bubble me and sparking to avoid it. I can kill first boss w/o circles, etc. The higher dps takes difficulty from some bosses.

Kokki - Harshlands wrote: »

Ok last DPS question if anyone wants to calculate it for demon sin, since that it what i will be going for, for my farm ****

same basic setup as in my first post

daggers nr 1.:
Dark Death Thorn with .-05 Int, sac assault, +12 with 2 garnet gems

Daggers nr2 :
G16 daggers, -.05 Int, +19 dex +11, 1 Garnet gem

I know with the G16's i'll have the option to +12 them and they will be better DPS, but the chances on that are REALLY slim. So i would take em as is and farm with them. i can get either of them for 450 mil, so the price argument is non existant here.

Using the same template as before, you get 221,336 dps and 238,311 dps, respectively.