Seeker or BM For NW / PVP

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everyone else is wrong, kossy is right b:victory.

At the end of the day, it does not matter. Some days you'll be lucky and one shot everyone. Other days you will be base locked for 1 hour 40 minutes out of 2 hours. Everyone can go into pros and cons. Sometimes as a bm, i find 4~10 players grouped up. I run in, blade hurl stun, bt or hf, and i kill half to all of them. Other days i am seal locked by clerics, psy that i can't move for the next 2~50 seconds before dying.

No one class has an absolute advantage in NW. Factors that will hinder any class

1) spawn killing

2) Base locking

3) People spread out all over (wasting time chasing down next target)

4) 20 vs few battles (you are in 20)

The above 4 will appear in all your NW for more than 50% of your battles. That means you diminish your rewards by default, no matter what class/gear you have on.

That brings us back to kossy's point, if you don't enjoy/know your class, having r9 3rd cast, all the new gear from forges, +12, josd will mean nothing, your contribution will not improve relative to the gear.

Actually I have to disagree. This thread is basically asking, which of the two classes Seeker/BM have the ADVANTAGE initially in NW. And quite frankly to say it just comes down to who has the most/luck or skill does not really answer the question. I am not saying those are not factors to consider has yes I fully agree they are. But I don't feel it actually gets to the heart of the debate.

Not to change the subject just using an example. If a full r9 Psychic for example is fighting a full r9 archer and you were to ask me who had the advantage. I would not say:'whoever has the least amount of lag and better luck and skill will win.' While yes that is true it does not answer the question. I would say the archer has the advantage right off the bat MAINLY because of the purge factor.

Or of course a more real life team setting.A baseball team that has only been playing for 4 years, VS a team that has played for lets say 5 years. Most would probably say the 5 year team has the advantage right off the bat because again, they have the more experience statistically.

This is all my opinion of courseb:cute.

Aren't BMs kinda a broken or overpriced class to play?

To be aps; not only do you sacrifice your tank-ability, but you also sacrifice AoE potential. To be well rounded; you sacrifice a bunch of coin to obtain and maintain multiple weapons of which none you specialize or are great in. The better damaging fist/claws don't get the same aps or chi gain and using axe skills comes close to the same chi gain as 3.33 unsparked.

Because of the mess of alter marrows; I can't even decide what to shard on my bm. They're supposedly good for tanking; but wiz and mystic seem to be more suited for tanking metal, sot, aba, lunar, rb, etc.

BM seems all about sacrifice. I made mine for the buff but I rarely bother with it for the buff anymore.

Just a note about stuns since they seem to matter quite a bit to some: Expel, Absolute Domain, Erupt, etc. When I see a BM do Roar of the Pride on my Mystic: I think *thank you so much*! b:chuckle

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

What he's saying is that melees have the advantage in soaking up damage because they're out in front of everyone else tanking the damage, whereas people from 30 meters away are less likely to be targeted. A similar geared R999 +10 Psychic I squad with will get 35 kills in an instance, and get 4th place, 1.7k contribution, and I'll get 17 kills and grab 1st with 2.3k contribution. Seekers may have the range advantage, but you give up the melee advantage if you utilize the range.

While melees are always going to be down-played in damage output by ranged DD, they shine more in taking the focus of enemy DDs, which ultimately is probably 75% of supply token earnings. I know barbs that deal no damage, and purely grab the flag that out-score allied ranged DD every time.

And if seekers give up their range advantage to try to soak more damage and be a melee fighter, BMs will still more likely be the ones out CCing and better utilizing their control skills due to the fact BMs have a much longer anti stun to be able to continue dealing uninterrupted damage. Seekers only really get a 35-40 defense level advantage over a BM, whereas BMs get better self buffs after purge and abusing magic marrow will allow them to out-perform after a purge. When both full buffed, they're about even, but it's pretty obvious to say BM gets the advantage after purge. Magic resistance debuffs wreck seekers, but will barely affect a magic marrowed BM. Especially that spark undine combo wizards always use, laughable.

I have to disagree; seekers will NEVER soak up more damage than an equally geared and skilled BM unless they're literally going around meleeing people like a BM. BMs just simply have the better control skills and anti stuns to sustain themselves in pro-longed combat. You're really downplaying the threat BMs are with their huge sustainability from their immune stun and roar. They can stay in combat without getting interrupted longer than any other melee. A seeker will be 5x as likely to be ignored just due to the fact that they can be slept, sealed, and left aside out of combat.

BMs also can close distances the easiest out of any melee class with their leaps and reckless rush. A BM who can drop HF on a group of people can get R999 opponents to get killed easily by an allied DD. Seekers are way too reliant on single target DPH skills to be able to hold a crowd of enemy's attention. Whenever there's group PvP against the top faction on my server at west gate, if I'm not the first or second person to die, they're in trouble. BMs play a big role in support and being a large threat in interrupting enemy damage so they are generally going to draw more attention than a seeker that's doing just pure damage.

And if my experiences are accurate to others, more than 67% of the time you'll get split up with your squad within the 1 hour point due to DCs, pro-longed 10v20s, and then end up base locked and trying to all rush out to get into an instance will never guarantee you'll be with your squad. A BM depending on their own self buffs will always out-perform a seeker on their own buffs in terms of survivability.

BMs just generally bring more to the table in a squad vs squad fight and thus contributing more to overall supply token earnings. However if your squad is already going with a BM, then in this case I'd go with the Seeker, but it's going to come down to what the squad needs. If your squad has neither, or you're going solo, I'd go with the BM any day.

Good post... you make some valid points.

Also... we seem to agree (or at least I think we do on the advantage of range vs melee in that Seekers will definitely have a clear edge personal contribution wise, if we focus on the damage dealing aspect of NWs alone. Where I disagree with you (and with Mael too, it seems) is just how much damage dealing contributes to your overall personal score compared to damage soaked.

I've seen you use on more than one occasion a direct comparison between a Psychic and your BM in terms of how your damage soak gives a considerably greater contribution than the Psy's DDing. Well on my server there is a R999 Psy in my faction who... when NW has ended and everyone is declaring their token rewards in faction chat... pulls in a tad under 300 tokens while being in the nation which came dead last. b:shocked

Now I'm sorry... and maybe the BMs on my server kind of suck or something b:chuckle ... but I just don't see any BM racking up the kind of contribution to beat that score... particularly if you transposed that score to the winning nation, you may be looking at 600 tokens. b:shocked

Anyway my point is that I disagree with the downplaying of damage dealt in favor of damage received when it comes to affecting one's personal score and ultimately token count. Of course you can throw the Barb example out there and they do tend to do very well in NW. But when you have 40K HP and are the preferred flag carrier, it's only natural that you're going to be racking up disproportionately more damage soak than just about anyone else. I still haven't seen on average Barb scores beating the top flight DDs out there on my server though.

Secondly... I disagree with your statement that, BMs also can close distances the easiest out of any melee class with their leaps and reckless rush. Even now with all the changes to class skills and so on, that title still belongs to Sins alone. They have practically the same two speed skills as BMs, plus two teleport skills with a range of 30+ m (compare that to reckless rush 15m range) and of course the all important stealth.

BMs on the other hand have essentially the same problem they've had since Beta when it comes to closing in on an opponent... the other dude can see you coming first. b:chuckle

BMs anti kiting skills have gotten an upgrade but other classes pro-kiting skills haven't been static either. Archers can now leap all over the place plus stealth while Wizzies have their arcane defense plus their old distance shrink. Throw in the widespread use of genies and other anti-stun skills all adds up to BMs having to work harder than ever to close the distance gap. And of course as I mentioned in my previous post... the time you're taking to deal with others kiting is time lost that could have been better spent racking up your damage dealing score.

Now on the other side of the equation which is damage soak... I'll concede that melee's will tend to draw more fire than ranged DD's... but only depending on which target they are after. So basically I agree that a BM chasing down a flag carrier is going to be the greater priority to be focus fired than a Seeker doing the chasing... because BM is much faster and greater threat due to being able to lock down the carrier for a longer time which gives the rest of his side time to catch up and eliminate the flag person.

But in open NW PK... basically times like when you're hanging around the center pit waiting for the flag to reset... in my experience I don't see BMs being priority targets at all... unless they jump into the pit waiting for flag to appear... but then that would apply to any class which does the same.

I mean think about it for a second. In open PK, which is the greater threat that everyone simultaneously decides must be dealt with at once... the guy whose range is so limited that he has to run from individual to individual just to do his thing (stun/HF) and mind you, in NWs people tend to be spread out far more than TW, particularly in the second hour when squads who are still together tend to be a rarity ... or the guy who can stand around around and zerk/crit nuke any and everyone within 30m ?

The answer just seems so logical to me... but perhaps I'm missing something. b:surrender

All I know is that when that R9 BM runs past me to roar the Barb/Cleric duo 15m away, the people I'm with haven't taken their attention away from that R999 Seeker/Psy/Archer/Wiz one-shotting people 25 m away, for even one second.

Joe - Momaganon wrote: »

BMs are the most versatile class in the whole game. You can come up with amazing Strategies and stuff when you're using all weapon paths and skills. There is always a skill for any situation.

But tho to my personal experience I know that playing a BM to it's extend requires massive amounts of skill and virtuosity while playing a seeker is like childsplay compared to that.

So if you want a easy to handle char that works well in NW chose the seeker, if it's skill you posses then I suggest you stick to your BM and play it to it's extend. Excellent BMs are so rare these days. I can't think of any BM on Momaganon server that I would consider even "good" tho all focusing on either fists and axe or axe only which is fail.

Surely you use the r9 axes mostly due to their massive dmg but imo playing a class means playing it with all possibilities and that means Swords, fists, axe and pole.

A nice Weapon setup would be:

r9 rere cast Axe/G16 Dual Axes/Hammers
G16 Fists (ok that aspect is not recommended for PvP but for PvE even more =P)
r8rec pole with advanced purge (though you can get this on r8rec axes too, depends on you're playing style)
G16 dual swords

If you wanna play it like that then go for a BM (: if that's alrdy way too much for you, play seeker

+1 to this post. I couldn't have said it better myself.
The seeker is an easy choice because of the range, extra Def levels, and increased damage per hit because of the attacks.
Truly though, the Bm is going to be more versatile and able to deal considerably more damage if played to it's fullest extent. There are just so few people who actually put the time and effort into mastering their class, that it's not the norm and often overlooked.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Where I disagree with you (and with Mael too, it seems) is just how much damage dealing contributes to your overall personal score compared to damage soaked.

Now I'm sorry... and maybe the BMs on my server kind of suck or something b:chuckle ... but I just don't see any BM racking up the kind of contribution to beat that score... particularly if you transposed that score to the winning nation, you may be looking at 600 tokens. b:shocked

Secondly... I disagree with your statement that, BMs also can close distances the easiest out of any melee class with their leaps and reckless rush. Even now with all the changes to class skills and so on, that title still belongs to Sins alone. They have practically the same two speed skills as BMs, plus two teleport skills with a range of 30+ m (compare that to reckless rush 15m range) and of course the all important stealth.

BMs on the other hand have essentially the same problem they've had since Beta when it comes to closing in on an opponent... the other dude can see you coming first. b:chuckle

But in open NW PK... basically times like when you're hanging around the center pit waiting for the flag to reset... in my experience I don't see BMs being priority targets at all... unless they jump into the pit waiting for flag to appear... but then that would apply to any class which does the same.

I mean think about it for a second. In open PK, which is the greater threat that everyone simultaneously decides must be dealt with at once... the guy whose range is so limited that he has to run from individual to individual just to do his thing (stun/HF) and mind you, in NWs people tend to be spread out far more than TW, particularly in the second hour when squads who are still together tend to be a rarity ... or the guy who can stand around around and zerk/crit nuke any and everyone within 30m ?

Okay these statements alone definitely allude to you having way different (and tbh, worse) experiences than I've had. I think you need to find the better BMs on your server and work with them.

Damage seems to contribute more.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1542891

Mag is hiding some info, and outta respect for him I'm not posting it. So far the assumed math and flat out experience shows that damage received counts for more. Also, it's kinda logical - doing 20k damage to one person in 10 seconds vs taking 40k+ damage from multiple people is gonna be worth more points.

I've been in too many battles where I've embarrassingly done next to no damage, and just run flags and taken damage. I've placed 1st or 2nd, and earned 2k-3k points. Actually one of my 3k'ers last weekend was one of those battles. Of note: I bring in 10k on a lame base lock scenario, and 15-20k contribution otherwise. And mostly I'm a CC BM and do lots of flag running (too much really). I know more attack style BMs with the same, similar, or even lesser gear that score WAY better that I do.

But my secret to that is the same thing I've been saying for weeks: We win instances. Nearly, if not all of them were in. We do 6 v 20s. And each other squad I've spoken with that pulls this off (and better) always has 1-2 good to pro BMs that concentrate on helping the others there win.

I almost always have a seeker with me, and he and I have won 2/3 v 20 battles out of sheer cooperation strategy. Yes, I rank better each time because I take more damage (We've talked charm usage). He beat me once but I had a large section of time where I sat there with my thumb up my [bleep] stun locked while he murdered the flag carrier.

BMs do close distances the best out of melee characters, and heres why:

BM: Higher HP. Better defense balance (Marrows). Leaps x2 for 16m - and they come with chanced antistuns or antidamage (which do work and help). 15s 90% run. 15s 100% run with antistun. 15m Tele Immobilize. 25m Reel In.

Sin: 10s 100% Run, 10s 100% run with antistun, 35m Teleport, 30m Teleport. Deaden Nerves, Tidal Protection.

It's not just about skills to close the distance, but the ability to survive closing that distance too. Also the stealth vs no stealth visibility increases point gain, along with causing people to panic and mis-skill. Sin popping outta stealth you're prepped for and have a moment to think what to do. People rushing you, you tend to be thinking what your doing and how to deal with that, it confuses people.

Now in terms of single target CC Sins win any day, although a lucky BM can keep up. But they don't have the group CC, which is essential in closing the distance - and keeping that distance closed. It's not just single target but the group supporting it too. But you see the sin too, sins popping out of stealth is great and all, but short lived.

Also, flag running or getting rid of people ganking my flag runner - that AoE stun and slow is essential for getting away. I'm pretty much a 2 skill bot in times like that, aoe stun, fissure, and maybe see what else is available to stop, slow down, or minimize the effectiveness of what they can do if I don't run off ahead with the flag or to keep up with the runner. And if my support is there? Amp if I got the chi so they can get rid of them completely.

Now where you said you see everyone spread out more in NW as opposed to TW - holy god man. I'd rant on TW wtf but were talking NW so Ill stick to that. People tend to cram in a 12m space everywhere that I see. At least 3-4 people.

Smarter ones will spread way the hell out, but at the same time - we're talking more board control. If a BM gets in your face with it's myriad of skills, or hell a sin does - most of the time you will move. Utilize that, push people around through threat or CC, you'll be hosing down groups of people with your team instead of single target wiping people.

It's all about team work and manipulating the field. People will chase and dogpile the flag runner, people will cram towards center (fail strategy to win, though), and people will try and dogpile on the guy in the pit (again, fail, but easy to use against people with a good tank and DDs up top).

If you know the behavior of people - Id assume you do by now having done enough NW - it's easy to predict whats going to happen, pro opponents or scrub opponents, and bank on that. When you think that way, its easy to position a BM to wreck the hell out of everything, or setup your squad to wreck the hell outta everything. I try to do it every weekend...and not only is it successful, its fun as hell.

That seeker can 10 second immob one person and wreck them. That BM can 6+ second stun/etc multiple people or one person, and wreck a single target, wreck a group, setup amps so the party can wreck a single or multiple target...and still have further CCs to **** with your opponents. Sure a BM is not gonna easily 40k something at range. But overall with a good attention span, strategy, and playstyle - that BM is gonna create more opportunity for a win and still dish out and take damage.

THAT is why BMs will get prioritied. You get rid of the thing you perceive as a threat, and between stun locks, amps, and various other CCs while the guy is able to zerk crit you? You want that gone or CCed.

Seeker is just perceived as another range DD thats harder to kill that doesn't do omg level damage like a Wizard, Psy, or Archer will (archer moreso cause of that bleeping purge). Sure, a seeker can lock you down a bit until your antistun is ready, and hit you damn hard - but that BM can stop/kill you and your support en masse (and stun you, stopping you from using skills), or amp you so you definitely don't make it. Thats more of a threat, and people are gonna wanna get rid of that first.

Stun sucks more than any other CC skill. Period.

Ofc, I'm a damn sin magnet for ??? reason in NW, Im sure that helps too. Could be 5 BMs on my side and the 4 sins go for me. I think its that I'm a dark elf, and they're jelly I look cooler.

Don't get me wrong on Seekers tho. I very much depend on a range class to stop the damn flag runner or priority target - and it's usually a seeker who gets that immob off so I can ensure Im on top of the guy stun locking, and when he gets away, reeling in or reckless rushing back on top of him. I've done some amazing things duo with a seeker, and that higher survivability the seeker has vs other DD classes is invaluable in those situations.

But they can't replace what a BM does teamwork wise. But they are easier to play for sure.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Between myself and a R999 Psy with the same gear (both +10) who squads with me, I always get 3-4K contribution more than them in the end even though I get half their kills. So, I'd have to disagree there.

I'm not really sure about the seeker vs BM pre-r9 though... Zerk really makes a big difference for both classes. They'd come about even depending on skill imo.

This guy just thwacked it on the head.

You not only get points for dealing damage but also for taking damage, so if you can handle a little bit of pew pew before closing the distance, which we have a fair share of skills to help. But then the seeker can dish out more damage in less time, so they come out even, but as a BM you have to be ready to take some serious abuse. It all comes down to which you are better at.

I dunno about bm's but I can tell you one thing: Veno's are not good in NW. I have a 95 veno and get an average of 36-40 tokens if I do NW. When I did it on my seeker (89 at that time) I got 88.. Go figure. I have reasonably good gear on both.

However it was hilarious to get killed over and over again on the veno while standing there waving my hands in the air trying to cast something.

The issue is though, how much longer will soaking damage actually be useful?

Already people are hitting their 3rd cast R9; so what happens to the already depreciating value of supply tokens when the number who have keeps rising? They will end up flooding the markets and driving prices down, which will cause people to jump from cannies to the next item. Each time the worth will continue ticking downwards.

Already we're seeing anywhere from a 10-20k drop a week in supply token worth, which is a tacit proof of the devaluation. Eventually using up charms to soak damage and earn higher contribution will not be as rewarding as simply dealing damage from a safe distance without charm ticking. The length of time it will occur can't be known, but I'd wager it's not likely to be longer than half a year.

So if a BM is already set for the soaking role, it's perfectly fine in modern day NW. But if it will take a while to get there, might not be so useful as thought when they finally get there. Would be terrible to spend so much to do NW, only to find it won't be paying you back as you thought it would.