Seeker or BM For NW / PVP

There are couple of seekers i know who have got most amount of tokens on our server in a NW, but they are hugely OP geared..

+1 to what kniveran said..

Learn to actually play your seeker, then decide afterwards.


Doesn't matter how good a seeker is if you can't play it well enough to shine compared to your BM.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

The seeker has access to ranged attacks, which is one thing the BM is rather weak at. And NW heavily favors ranged for the most part. Plus once more casters have Purify weapons, BMs will be stuck with skill spam as well. And for the most part we use our stuns to lock someone in place so our melee skills can hit. With ranged, not being able to stun isn't as big an issue.

Between myself and a R999 Psy with the same gear (both +10) who squads with me, I always get 3-4K contribution more than them in the end even though I get half their kills. So, I'd have to disagree there.

I'm not really sure about the seeker vs BM pre-r9 though... Zerk really makes a big difference for both classes. They'd come about even depending on skill imo.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Plus once more casters have Purify weapons, BMs will be stuck with skill spam as well.

Since no one really cares about the **** bms... the half decent or better bms can just go the way of the barb and get more points.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since no one really cares about the **** bms... the half decent or better bms can just go the way of the barb and get more points.

The **** BMs were the ones around before anni packs, running around HF brambling or being unable to kill anything from all the constant misses. After anni pack is when BMs started getting some skill; with weapon swapping, cancel casting, and making use of all the paths.

But if you think sticking with axe only and mindless skill spamming is the path to skill, it explains why you're an archer.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Between myself and a R999 Psy with the same gear (both +10) who squads with me, I always get 3-4K contribution more than them in the end even though I get half their kills. So, I'd have to disagree there.

I'm not really sure about the seeker vs BM pre-r9 though... Zerk really makes a big difference for both classes. They'd come about even depending on skill imo.

What I have experienced, when I geared up my weapon, it appears to me that taking damage is still way more effective for gaining contribution than killing people in no time. As a melee class you are more likely targeted than your psy who can possibly kill a good bunch of her enemies even before they can land an attack on her.

@OP: I'd advise you to take the char you are more familiar pvp'ing with (which is your bm, probably).

Someone mentioned to me about seekers having no stuns or control skills for NW, but for my mystic they pose as one of the biggest challenges to kill. Even though BMs have stun and can avoid stun/ demobile: they're fairly easy to control since they have to get in close. Bramble Tornado, Gale Force, and they're pretty much pwned. Seekers defense levels, and ability to fight at range even with AoEs make them seem better to me.

What people are saying about learning the class is true. One of the fastest BH aba take downs I've seen was done w/ 2 seekers. Other people seem to value them in RB for Vortex (while I feel they're far over rated compared to Mystic), and that's because it actually takes some effort to do great on Mystic there (learning the class).

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

BMs got skill from anni packs? im pretty sure all the weapon paths were available prior to anni packs, as was cancel casting, which has been removed.

She means APS gear was more readily available, making APS characters more attainable.
Cancel casting without fists tree was pretty limited.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Only a few BMs actually used all weapon paths and cancel casting. It's only when fists became obviously good DPS, that all the BMs who were Vit Axe only actually began branching out. Before that, BMs basically would HF and bramble, and post repeated PKs of that as evidence of being "skilled".

Now compare that to BMs timing swaps properly, remembering when to swap back for stun lock using auto as timing, swapping weapons just in time to get the buff, and all that came about after it was rubbed in the Vit Axers how badly they were playing. Anyone who actually thinks it takes more skill to just axe only compared to CC et al, definitely doesn't understand the meaning of the word.

Goooootttttt it. I'm gonna have to disagree with button mashing to exploit a fault in programming being the mark of someone "Skilled" if you're talking purely about channel casting.

If you're talking about stun locking...well fists are still a very rare thing you'd have to/want to use unless you're undergeared.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sacrificial Slash -> Quid Pro Quo -> Faceroll.
Spammable every 30s, doesn't take any chi and can 1shot cata barb with zerk crit metal.

You forgot the Crimson Soul Powder.



But lbr, I think I've only seen two or three seekers on the server ever use that combo. Most just try to auto-attack or vortex to death and maybe throw in a couple metal skills.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Goooootttttt it. I'm gonna have to disagree with button mashing to exploit a fault in programming being the mark of someone "Skilled" if you're talking purely about channel casting.

If you're talking about stun locking...well fists are still a very rare thing you'd have to/want to use unless you're undergeared.

It's less about using it, and more being able to properly time it. Same with stunlocks, really. But the old Vit Axe didn't bother with either, they needed amped Bramble to win the day or nothing.

And really back then I also counted needing to know how to aftercast cancel as part of the deal to be a skilled BM. It's alot more difficult for a BM then the class I discovered it on, cleric, because of the different animation times of the BM's attacks. Some will get complete aftercast cancel after some skills, but not others. Some can only start, and not finish. Some will give only partial when following other skills.

Basically it was something that had to be trained, and tested for the various possible combos available. Which is why even when I see pure axe going, I don't think of them as skilled since they are doing it the lazy way that any generic R9er can usually do. So even taking out all the other tricks, not knowing the aftercast still made those old Vit Axers amateur.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Whichever one you play better. It's also very much a style choice. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but many will say the BM is better.

The recent improvement to seeker skills has made them a much more viable class for PK. They hit much harder, and are a viable DD with tankability class now.

However the BM shines over the seeker in CC and group play contribution. Seekers get some insane 1 hits, but do not have the equivalent survival tactics and abilities, let alone CCs. BMs will lay out similar to superior damage to tankier targets if played well.

Really the two work together well. Seekers are not a necessity for most groups and strategies, but a BM typically is. Pick a style - Tanky and DD/Higher DPH, or Tanky and CC/Group play. Or if you have a buddy BM or Seeker you usually group with, play the opposite.

Sylvae I have no idea what you're trying to say other than possibly fail trolling Kiyo.

Would have to disagree with the above in terms of comparing how much personal contribution in Nation Wars each class gets... which is what I believe the OP was asking about.

Your personal contrib score in NW as you know is mainly dependent on damage received and damage dealt as well as other factors such as the soul force of the competition and how well you rack up against people on your side in terms of kills, etc.

In terms of damage received... they are both tanks and at end game can be very hard to kill. In terms of which can tank better than the other... well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... but I suppose the difference isn't really all that great. BMs have their marrows, Seekers get a **** load more defense levels than anyone else save maybe Psys in white voodoo. So it all evens out in the end I suppose, although I do tend to see waaay more posts complaining about how unkillable R999 Seekers are than I do about same geared BMs.

But it's the other half of the equation (damage dealt) where Seekers have a huge advantage over BMs in NWs. That's because in this new instance, range rules... there is simply no disputing that. No matter how you swing it... BMs are mostly a melee class. Seekers have ranged aoe nukes with low cool downs and a skill that speeds up casting by 85% that they can spam every 30 secs.

Over a 25 min period or however long it takes to successfully capture the flag on individual maps, end game Seekers and BMS will both be able to soak up approximately the same amount of damage and thus their score shouldn't differ that much on this end, assuming you exclude outside factors such as nation won or lost, etc...

But on the damage dealt side, I don't see how anyone can argue that BMs can rack up the same amount of damage dealt in their logs as Seekers do. 99% of the time BMs have to run up close and deal with the kiting of other classes in order to drop their stuns and HF. My Seeker can stand at 28m and zerk crit large groups of people with either physical (kryptonite for AAs/LAs) or metal (achilles heal for HA and LA) damage. There is simply no comparison between BMs and Seekers in terms of who can dish out the most damage in mass PK.

So basically, with each class played by equally skilled players and with equal end game gear, I would have to say that Seekers should on average rack up more personal contribution than BMs.

TW on the other hand I'll give you that, since squad dynamics and support/crowd control plays a more predominant role in your faction winning than merely adding another DD.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Claws generate chi faster and have bolt of tyresius. Plus, even if you have +12 r9.3 axes, APS gear will still out DPS you.

Yes but, the problem is I highly doubt in a 1v1 against a well geared s3 r9 for example, claws would be effective at all except for building chi. Especially if the said s3 r9 has a purify weapon.

Claws/Fist ulti will give u fire dmg to stunlock/effect psychic through their phy immunity and AA's in general through expel.
Get Wizzy buff before the fight?How about just make a simple level 1/2 elemental apoth?
(I assume your talking 1v1 of course because if not, this is quite a waste of chi for group PvP which could have been used elsewhere). Also I still think zerk axes would at least give you a greater chances of bypassing a charm tick. Where as using claws/fist on a psy is only asking to get perma silenced all the time anyway.

Pole and sword have ranged attacks (on a side note, I haven't played with it much but in the updates they made the effects of Myriad and Glacial effect players significantly more.)

Regardless of group pvp/1v1, don't you think HF used with skill spamming would still be more effective?. Again especially if your fighting someone with a purify weapon.

Pole and Sword ranged attacks are useful for breaking out of paralyze/freeze glitch that stops you from being able to leap and make good finishers.

Or you could Mo Zuns taunt if your demon but cancel it before you cast which breaks you out of the glitch as well . But this only applies if your demon of courseb:chuckle.

Pole can purge.

Pure Pole is always nice, no disagreement here.

r8 recast sword can get interval and a seal+freeze effect which chains/stacks on top of both stuns and occult ice.

Would be nice if it actually procs e.e...

You can now get purge axes as well, which are very nice to switch to in TW.

No complaints here.

My r8 recast top actually has more pdef than a R9.3 top (i got 3 pdef adds)

List goes on. Other gears have uses.
Hell, every class should carry with them both blessing types and hotkey them.

Replies above.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Would have to disagree...

So basically, with each class played by equally skilled players and with equal end game gear, I would have to say that Seekers should on average rack up more personal contribution than BMs.

I think you have had vastly different experiences than I have. I also score better than the other seekers Im aware of in the same nation, even the same fights, with similar gear - and yes they play very well. Okay actually I have better gear, cause I got better adds, but it still should be closer as opposed to 100-50 tokens behind me. And Im a style CC BM.

Now, what I'll give you in NW, is seeker is by far easier to play and score well than a BM. BM has a lot more skill involved in scoring high.

However, here is where you're flat wrong:

But it's the other half of the equation (damage dealt) where Seekers have a huge advantage over BMs in NWs. That's because in this new instance, range rules... there is simply no disputing that. No matter how you swing it... BMs are mostly a melee class. Seekers have ranged aoe nukes with low cool downs and a skill that speeds up casting by 85% that they can spam every 30 secs.

It's not half. Its maybe 1/4th. Range does rule, but the gap closes fast, and they do not have the consistent CCs and resistance skills to survive like a BM will. Even with the calc we have, if it is correct - 1 v 4 situations, you're gonna get more points from damage received, than damage dealt. And I'm sorry, but a well geared BM set to abuse mag marrow does a better job of taking damage than a Seeker will. They're also better at not getting stun locked and standing there like a chump.

Again, I find the classes equal. But in serious group PvP situations (which, if played well and correctly, NW is), the BM will contribute greater to the squad(s), and rack in more points throughout the two hours via making fights more successful.

BMs will rack up the same amount of damage as seekers doing the following:

AOE Stun (prevents you from being Stunned, dying, etc) and other CCs.
More evasion skills.

You keep talking about range, range, range, and I dont know what class of people you're fighting, but normally the flag bearer or hard to kill people get dogpiled. BMs requiring melee range is actually an advantage to scoring, because people are more likely to SEE said BM and hit them, all the while the BM can control the fights better, while dishing out damage. This is why high level wizards may not score as well as tanks, because everything is dead before they can get hit themselves.

I understand your logic behind the post, just it doesn't match behavior in good NW fights. Group play is severely important to success - both in personal score and nation score, and comparing the two classes the BM wins out in that every time. But Id rather have a BM and a Seeker than two BMs.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Claws generate chi faster and have bolt of tyresius. Plus, even if you have +12 r9.3 axes, APS gear will still out DPS you.

Claws/Fist ulti will give u fire dmg to stunlock/effect psychic through their phy immunity and AA's in general through expel.

Pole and sword have ranged attacks (on a side note, I haven't played with it much but in the updates they made the effects of Myriad and Glacial effect players significantly more.)

Pole and Sword ranged attacks are useful for breaking out of paralyze/freeze glitch that stops you from being able to leap and make good finishers.

Pole can purge.

r8 recast sword can get interval and a seal+freeze effect which chains/stacks on top of both stuns and occult ice.

You can now get purge axes as well, which are very nice to switch to in TW.

My r8 recast top actually has more pdef than a R9.3 top (i got 3 pdef adds)

List goes on. Other gears have uses.
Hell, every class should carry with them both blessing types and hotkey them.

Im gonna make this short and sweet, no dig on you personally:

Bolt of Tyreseus sucks compared to other things you can do with that chi.
Drake's Breath Bash REALLY sucks compared to other things you can do with that chi.

+12 r9.3 axes out DPS's my fists every time in short battles. Spike/DPH is needed. I've done the calcs, had the raw experience, and APS gear does NOT have anywhere near the defenses a good axe build has.

Pole and Sword range attacks are pitiful compared to just utilizing R9rr Axes for anything. If BMs are having issues with kiters and range, you're playing your BM wrong. Even in freeze situations - seriously, you have so many ranged options with morai skills along with building chi so you can stop getting screwed - again - you're playing bad.

R8 recast sword with hahahahahaaha I'm not even gonna address that point. Okay I lied, this part is a dig on you, pass the drugs man.

Purge Pole: Yes, if you can't afford R8r yet. I made a long comparison of timings in my R9rr with pole vs axe. What skills are available, and whats the fastest delivery of the possible purge. Because we have <1 second skills we can utilize, the purge axe is a better choice.

I have both, Purge Axe and Def Level Axe.

In the case of your R8r Chest...you have 500+ less hp, MR, Def levels due to set...trust me its not even in the same ballpark.

I do utilize some other weapon types in NW and TW, but its mostly just to build chi with fists (on people or NPC stuff), and that rarer 1-2% of the time to fist someone down (mostly for chi) or to utilize some other CC skills. But really? Axe puts down just about everything (esp with another class helping), otherwise my butt should be CCing and letting a heavier DD take care of it.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

1) spawn killing

2) Base locking

3) People spread out all over (wasting time chasing down next target)

4) 20 vs few battles (you are in 20)

The above 4 will appear in all your NW for more than 50% of your battles. That means you diminish your rewards by default, no matter what class/gear you have on.

50%?

Damn for once I'm beating the statistics if people are finding this true. I maybe encounter #3 and #4 kinda sorta in the first two battles (def not 50%) and not experience the other 4 the rest of the way really. Maybe #2 sometimes, but I think Ive gotten lucky to avoid that completely in the last month.

I kinda consider about 15 or more minutes of every NW wasted moving to zones or waiting for something to open up.