Veno vs Sin

dupethefile · January 2013

Well, mi question is about a comment in my guild that, a player said: Veno r9 does not survive agsint a sin 5.0, while a HA veno can survive easily.

So is this true? What's the tatic that a veno can use to win a sin in x1, pvp... Can a full r9 veno get a great defense as a HA veno?

opkossy · January 2013

That prson doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. In any form of instanced PvP, lolbramble = autowin for the veno in most cases, regardless of being heavy armored or R9.

And unless the veno's R9 is at a low refine/poorly sharded or they're wearing an elemental neck for some reason, you'll have plenty of defense against the usual herpderp 5.0 sins without needing to be HA.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

Now, 5.0 aps for sins is a PvE build and not particularly effective in PvP as far as I know. The reason for this, and do bear in mind I'm by no means an expert on sins, is that going for -int statting cheats you out of better survivability (from the complect bonuses of endgame gear) and a better dph (important in kills involving the actual use of skills) although it may very well be R9 works differently.

In terms of combat I actually find sin to be one of the more favourable match ups for an arcane veno, and have no reason to supose this balance is upset by higher level gear, assuming on par equipment for both oponents. Yes, sin is a broken OP class, and only Barbies have a decent chance in 1vs1 against oponents actually familiar with their skills. That veno Bramble has been nerfed in open world PK, without providing for a fair alternative, doesn't help either... Fortunately the overwhelming majority of sins are simply not competent PvPers, but specialized PvE farmers. In mass PvP Bramble is your first line of defense, and Hood your go to move vs sins. An anti-stun helps if you suspect an actually skilled oponent, with anti-stealth pots your only counter to them stealthing out (on the other hand, most sins are usually very predictable, they'll generally follow waiting for your defenses to be down) but in general terms, a sin out of stealth is usually a sitting duck, no need to amp or purge, even stun seems something of a waste unless they're particularly ressilient. Nuking simply drops them fast enough. Sins are just a fact of life, every once in a while some pathetic loser will get his kicks killing you, It's sort of a random thing we all need to accept, but more often than not they'll just ridicule themselves...

Desdi - Sanctuary · January 2013

Pretty much what Manray said.

You can't imagine how many Assassins have died on my bramble. Even without that though, the majority of Assassins have poor defences since they tend to focus on maximizing their damage output and neglect the rest of the gear.

Of course there are some very competent Assassins (and usually those will overcome bramble and manage to kill me) who have great gear as well as skill but considering NW is available to anyone over lvl60+ (unlike TW) you'll see a lot of "noob" Assassins trying to triple spark + APS their targets..

Usually those in TW are quite competent since you have to be decent to be in a TW faction but even then..

I've no experience with open world PvP though. Can't comment on that o.o

dupethefile · January 2013

Thank you for the responses. It's because, i have investing in this (R9 Veno), and i was resentful with this but this person i discovered much of his experience in-game is from privates servers, in other hands it's not reliable.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · January 2013

I've told this story before but it applies so... I had a friend hit level 100 with his sin, got all this level 100 gear he already had refined and waiting for him. Started talking trash about how OP he was gonna be. Ok, lets duel. I was on my barb, I roar for 100% reflect damage right before he tele-stuns me. He hit me twice and did something like 300 damage and I reflected 3.5k crit and 4k crit and killed him. Never had to attack.

That made me ask why was bramble (when it applies in pk) so OP.

The damage the sin would do is based on the sins crit rate and the opponents defenses. The damage reflected (60% lvl 10 or sage, 75% demon) is based on the sins defenses and the venos crit rate. An r9 veno, especially with pdef ornaments, will have similar defense to an aps sin setup. Less if that sin is dph/defensively setup. So the damage being returned at 60% reflect is probably around 50% of what the sin is dealing. This means unless there is a huge hp difference or lack of a charm, the sin will win.

...As long as the veno ins't attacking.

What has happened to me is the veno ticks my charms and hits me again so I'm half dead before I stun and start attacking. In this scenario the veno would win. Or if the veno became unstunned and attacking while I'm also taking bramble damage.

However, you factionmate was right that an HA veno would probably survive much better against a sin. Mine has 30k+ pdef and 12k hp from HA refines. I reflect more damage than I recieve so a sin can literally just kill himself on bramble without me ever attacking.

helovesu · January 2013

It is so unfortunate that this good skill was nerfed in a certain condition such as common PK.

We venos can not last long once we get stunned and then slain by those sins. Moreover the sins use a skill of stealth to stalk againts us.

Does the Blazing Barrier skill have the same nerfed condition as bramble hood?

Anyway, bramble hood still gives us a damage reduction instead

Desdi - Sanctuary · January 2013

As far as I know Blazing Barrier is not nerfed at all and is our compensation for having Bramble nerfed.

Also, you can use Bramble Hood and Blazing Barrier together and get a great damage reduction (they stack together as far as I know) and have a reflect too (if lasts as long as Bramble Hood).

However, you factionmate was right that an HA veno would probably survive much better against a sin. Mine has 30k+ pdef and 12k hp from HA refines. I reflect more damage than I recieve so a sin can literally just kill himself on bramble without me ever attacking.

I kinda forgot to mention about it. Point is, a HA Venomancer has higher survivability against an Assassin overall but that doesn't mean AA Venomancers can't survive at all but it's true that they are more vulnerable and have a higher chance to die or die at the same time as the Assassin. It highly depends on the gear. AA Venomancers with poor physical defence will probably die before reflect even hurts the Assassin.

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Guess I'll state the obvious but HA venos can poke fun at R9 daggers, nirv fists whatever... But then you'll be runnning from magic classes rather than melee.

Valesska - Momaganon · January 2013

HA veno by nature got better pdef than their AA breathen but even r9 veno can survive against sin as long he not play properly and got proper gaer (shard/refine wise). From my expirence can say most of sins that die on my chara is those aps to win types or some well closer to me geared but making mistakes when fight me.

As example can tell in one NW I seen two sins coming toward me unstealthed. Well that was bad move for them as I not even get charm ticke when their touched my bramble hood with their daggers.

Can't say how much resillient is full r9.3 +12 veno sharded with best hp or Josd shards but so far mine still loosing to sins having r9.3+5-12 daggers. As one can expect all happening when I still stunned so that win situation for such sins.

dupethefile · January 2013

I have to agree. It's very pleasurable see the suicide of the sins in the bramble.

About the blazing barrier plus bramble hood, my tatic is use this with anti-stun (natural sinergy, demon summersprint...). I have a another question, if you use DoT skill in the sin, and he become invisible, when the DoT activate will he become visible?

Valesska - Momaganon · January 2013

Never tried that but well got friendly sins so will ask one to be my lab rat to test that. Would post answer if not anyone else do it faster and be first to tell ^^

UPDATE: Ok just tested with sin and well he was getting dmg form DoT but still was stealthed.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · January 2013

As a HA Veno I feel that sins in instances like NW arent a problem at all anymore(TW is a bit different since name is always showing there). Theres a few sins with +10-12 R9rr all over(and a few with JoSD) and obviously, wont die on bramble even with my own help of attack. Thats when you just do everything you can to survive and throw off a Fossilized curse before running away(unless you got help, then its beautiful to stay). I never played AA Veno, but from what I can see from my faction mates, the AA venos with G16/R9 still have problems with sins.

Also, HA venos shouldnt have to run from caster classes. A R9rr wiz usually hit me for a max of 8k in NW, wich makes it possible for me to react before the next few hits. Using mag def charms cuts that to 4k. Even tho using HA, my mag def is around 10k, while phy def is a rough 30k, only 1 def level(so far). G16, R9 and the occasional G15 or lower sins can still get me with a bit of help, but anything G13 lower seems to stay futile.

NOTE: On Dreamweaver its becoming very normal for sins to jump out of stealth with Absolute domain + Ironguard powders to bypass bramble. b:angry

EDIT: http://pwcalc.com/a85e2c084bf996eb

helovesu · January 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

NOTE: On Dreamweaver its becoming very normal for sins to jump out of stealth with Absolute domain + Ironguard powders to bypass bramble. b:angry

The Sins become smarter, they even have evolved to resist the bramble skills we have by using such method.

For that reason, why is the dev still nerfing those skills?

MANray_ - Sanctuary · January 2013

helovesu wrote: »

The Sins become smarter, they even have evolved to resist the bramble skills we have by using such method.

For that reason, why is the dev still nerfing those skills?

Because they'd much rather cater to powerleveled CS'ers...

As for sins stealthing out using IG, that's just dumb, a good sin can get a kill on a veno wth nothing more than the stuff on their OP skill set. If they're wasting their apso/genies on trying to get even with venos rather than using them to take down high priority targets like barbs and archers, all the more power to us.

Sins getting smarter... I'll let you know when I see it. b:chuckle

helovesu · January 2013

Can you give us some tips to avoid dying while you get stalked and then stuned by a sin (without having any time to cast your blazing barrier)?

Or can you show us the way to click a emergency button when being stunned?

Sometime we encountered a pro sin who are used to PKing. They are even good enaugh to let us stay immobilized and wait to die and once again they do not allow us to cast any barrier or to click an anti-damage pill.

Whatever your methods, it would be my pleasure to learn every single of them b:thanks

Crescendia - Harshlands · January 2013

The only emergency buttons I use are genie skills or a damage immunity pot. Once you're able to cast them you can try bewitch and stunning blow right after. We have alot of skills that can help in fox form but I usually use bewitch/stunning blow/amp/purge. I imagine sage soul deg is handy too, but I don't have it lol.

If a sin catches you out of fox form then you wont be as tanky obviously, so staying in fox form when sins are around make u depend on fox skills if you are alone until an antistun is up. Dont forget to try and kite.

Idk sometimes sins make mistakes and it lets you react to those mistakes. Like triple sparking right next to you without stunning you means u can antistun and purge their triple spark lol. You can use this on archers too just need to time it perfectly. Practice with an archer when they do Wings of grace to know when to purge before they Ironguard. Bewitch also stops them from casting skills which lets you amp+myriad them and save your purge for their wings of grace. Oops got off topic a little lol.

Anyways here's a scenario. Sin uses IG to resist bramble? Antistun with DSS (or Natural Synergy if ur sage) + feral concentration. Then expel, try to create distance, antistun again with genie (I use fortify, you can also use an immunity pot here if their damage is really good on you) + Blazing barrier and bramble hood for the finish. Dont forget to DD while you're immune and keep timers on your skills so you dont get caught.

Btw I didnt include nix here, I'm sure you can fill in the blanks on that one lol,. An extra stun can be used nearly anywhere as long as its alive.

helovesu · January 2013

Crescendia - Harshlands wrote: »

The only emergency buttons I use are genie skills or a damage immunity pot. Once you're able to cast them you can try bewitch and stunning blow right after. We have alot of skills that can help in fox form but I usually use bewitch/stunning blow/amp/purge. I imagine sage soul deg is handy too, but I don't have it lol.

If a sin catches you out of fox form then you wont be as tanky obviously, so staying in fox form when sins are around make u depend on fox skills if you are alone until an antistun is up. Dont forget to try and kite.

Idk sometimes sins make mistakes and it lets you react to those mistakes. Like triple sparking right next to you without stunning you means u can antistun and purge their triple spark lol. You can use this on archers too just need to time it perfectly. Practice with an archer when they do Wings of grace to know when to purge before they Ironguard. Bewitch also stops them from casting skills which lets you amp+myriad them and save your purge for their wings of grace. Oops got off topic a little lol.

Anyways here's a scenario. Sin uses IG to resist bramble? Antistun with DSS (or Natural Synergy if ur sage) + feral concentration. Then expel, try to create distance, antistun again with genie (I use fortify, you can also use an immunity pot here if their damage is really good on you) + Blazing barrier and bramble hood for the finish. Dont forget to DD while you're immune and keep timers on your skills so you dont get caught.

Btw I didnt include nix here, I'm sure you can fill in the blanks on that one lol,. An extra stun can be used nearly anywhere as long as its alive.

Thank you for your sharing.

By the way, could you conditionilze the situation when we are not being aware of what will happen next in our peaceful day, let's say, we will be stabbed back and PKed by a sin (we do not realize at all)?

Crescendia - Harshlands · January 2013

Ummm, I dont understand this question. Put your nix or whatever in defensive mode and have pounce ready? Use expel or AD? Gear and fast reactions can save u from initial surprise attacks.

Sorry I rly dont understand the question lol

helovesu · January 2013

Crescendia - Harshlands wrote: »

Ummm, I dont understand this question. Put your nix or whatever in defensive mode and have pounce ready? Use expel or AD? Gear and fast reactions can save u from initial surprise attacks.

Sorry I rly dont understand the question lol

Yes it might not be understable by some people. Anyway.

This is an illustration :

In PK Server

Someday, sometime, at your peaceful day of doing daily quest... Your A.S.S suddenly and silently get stabbed by an assailant (a sin). You do not suppose at all that time. And He makes you immobilized to death.

What would you do other than surrender?

alfie03 · February 2013

|If you think you may be attacked by a sin:
- Make sure you are in fox form
- Have your nix out set to defend with pounce, this will stun (most likely) the sin after his first hit
- Hit AD then when stun wears off chew on a crab meat while u purge
- change to human form and use Lucky Scarab (stunning him once again)
- from here on experiment, keep attacking if you have him close or use blazing barrier or hood if you dont think you can end the fight quick.

I havent been killed by a solo sin for some time and am AA build

Veno vs Sin

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