Best seeker possible

lazertazer0x · December 2012

Lol just for fun: http://pwcalc.com/7ff3e521018f1590

Someone could devote their life to obtaining this b:shocked

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · December 2012

After all that you use the morai helmet?...

Faction base helmet is better for HA

TolanSky - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

After all that you use the morai helmet?...

Faction base helmet is better for HA

okay, then whats the name of the Faction Base Helmet. Or alternatively why don't you list your own "Best Seeker Possible" build. That way we can get a discussion going on what people think the best seeker build that is possible actually happens to be. b:victory

Though looking at it objectively (as a third party) the ability to give Seeker a +10 to both Strength and Vitality on a helmet does seem pretty valuable. And since he did stipulate that this was something that a Seeker could spend a "life time" working towards the fact that the Morai gear comes with only two Slots for Shards is of little consequence in this case.

Though I would suggest that if we are going to go ahead and allocate a life time to building the best possible set of Seeker Gear. That instead of Love: Up and Down being set as the Tome, that we go with what I think is the Warsong or Warsoul or whatever Forge upgrades to Love: Up and Down. Those look slightly better than the tome in the link from the OP based on what I saw.

Szol - Harshlands · December 2012

two or three things not correct with your given build :

1. the cape as such aint in our version of the game (if i am not completely mistaken here, that is)
2. morai helmet
3.tome
4. rings

cant really show u an example , as i cant find the NW gears in pwcalc yet .

double mag rings (sky cover upgrade)
new g 17? cube belt
new nw cape (matchless wings upgrade)
dominator/emperor tome
new heaven ravager helmet (faction base helm upgrade)

everything else r9rrr

for shards - dunno if josd is really the way to go . dots might be just as good.

Terrastrike - Lost City · December 2012

Given the amount of Defense Levels the Seeker would have from the third cast etc, wouldn't it be better to use Vitality stones rather than JOSD?

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · December 2012

Terrastrike - Lost City wrote: »

Given the amount of Defense Levels the Seeker would have from the third cast etc, wouldn't it be better to use Vitality stones rather than JOSD?

No.
Josd's are always the best end game survivability shards.
I think you might have gotten confused when sometimes your hp is not high enough due to refines that it is more beneficial to shard vit stones

However when dealing with high refines (I believe +8 is approximately the cut off point for most cases) JoSDs are always better

With regards to the best seeker I think everyone would agree that it would be full r9r2 +12 with a +12 cloud stir recast ring and r9r ring +12 and the recasted recast love up and down tome and the matchless wings and faction base helmet (golden blast helmet) recasted fully sharded with josds.

This build is probably the best or something very close to the best possible for all classes

lazertazer0x · December 2012

lol I just noticed: a noob would do zero damage (or negative, if it were possible) to this seeker.b:chuckle

By the way guys, go ahead and post what you think the best would be, instead of just telling me what I should change. And, as mentioned by Bhavyy, JoSD's do give the highest survivability end game, period.

Terrastrike - Lost City · December 2012

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

No.
Josd's are always the best end game survivability shards.
I think you might have gotten confused when sometimes your hp is not high enough due to refines that it is more beneficial to shard vit stones

Are you sure about that?

Given that DoT and JoSD have a diminishing return as you use more, you'll eventually reach a point where it is less beneficial to add more defense levels/attack levels. The survivability depends on the attack level of the opponent. Given that DoT sharded Psychics in full third cast R9 can have over 170 attack levels, and that you won't be able to get close to that with defense levels, it may be more beneficial to focus on your base defenses.

I wish Asterelle read the Seeker forums ><

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide · December 2012

Terrastrike - Lost City wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

Given that DoT and JoSD have a diminishing return as you use more, you'll eventually reach a point where it is less beneficial to add more defense levels/attack levels. The survivability depends on the attack level of the opponent. Given that DoT sharded Psychics in full third cast R9 can have over 170 attack levels, and that you won't be able to get close to that with defense levels, it may be more beneficial to focus on your base defenses.

I wish Asterelle read the Seeker forums ><

As far as I know, i dont think DOT/JOSD have any diminishing returns. Since the total damage is calculated this way:
if ( enemy's attack level > your defense level ) then:
your damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )
if ( your attack level < enemy's defense level ) then:
enemy's damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + ( 1.2 * ( defense level - attack level ) / 100 ) )

so even if psychics have 170 attack level and you have full geared JOSD, it still makes a huge difference in pvp. i could be wrong though

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide · December 2012

Also, defense level/attack level is useless on someone with very low phy attack/mag/phy resistances. Its only then that having defense level shards are useless after a certain point. However, as for us seekers, we naturally have high physical defense, decent physical attack, and decent magical defense, those shards are great for us

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · December 2012

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

Also, defense level/attack level is useless on someone with very low phy attack/mag/phy resistances. Its only then that having defense level shards are useless after a certain point. However, as for us seekers, we naturally have high physical defense, decent physical attack, and decent magical defense, those shards are great for us

thats true btu might as well balance and have decent hp too, imo, half vit stone and half josd is the most balanced ya could manage.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · December 2012

But in terms of survivability it's not as good as full josds

Please refer to asterelles socket calculator.
If you were to be constantly attacked by the same thing until you died a full josd +12 full g16 thing would be the hardest of its kind to kill in terms of gear and would take the most hits. The damage reduction of a josd reduces the overall % of max hp decreased more effectively than a vit stone.

Technically it could be argued that a vit stone has diminishing returns because the more of them you add the less %increase is experienced by your max hp.
Vit stones also add to resistances too which we all know have diminishing returns. However a jade reduces damage at a constant rate depending on the attackers stats and therefore does not diminish.

This is why your hp must be a certain point because there is a cross over point at which a vit stone begins to do less for you than a jade due to the reasons above. This is why at end game a jade is better because we're talking about high refines and resistances

The only thing I can think of that vits have an advantage over josds is for skills such as Armageddon and tower attacks in tw which do constant hp damage and cost

There are some skills that cut through defense levels however often these have either long cast times or cost sparks such as edged blur and blade tornado

Perhaps this could warrant the sharing of maybe 4 vit stones. However it is an undisputed fact that the survivability index which you can actually calculate and observe in game using eye of observations is contributed to most greatly by josds

With regards to resistances - yes your hp and resistances need to be high enough for josds to be effective but.. Seriously ...

Who spends 120m per shard on gear that's lower than g15 t2 nirvy

Jades do not give diminishing returns from what I heard. This is only applicable to physical and elemental defenses

Sephroid - Archosaur · January 2013

with the exception of the +10 vit vs JOSD debate, any suggestions for this as my endgame goal?
http://pwcalc.com/372ec2ad32542224

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Jades do not give diminishing returns from what I heard. This is only applicable to physical and elemental defenses

They do indeed give diminishing returns in the sense that the more defense lvls you add, the lower their overall effective damage reduction becomes. That's why you don't see someone with 100 defense levels experiencing 100% damage reduction (in effect, receiving zero damage), even if the person/mob attacking them has no attack levels in turn.

Facerolled - Raging Tide · January 2013

The 'diminishing returns' concept you're modelling is flawed.

You're arguing the more vit stones you have the less return you get from an additional one because of the existing vit pool, adding less percentage increase. If we were to model it on that, anything you do in-game and life has 'diminishing returns'.

However for each vit stone you add there is a constant addition to HP, defences and regeneration, all of which are constant returns in the sense that it does not matter how much vit you had before, each additional unit will always add the same amount again. If anything it's JoSD that have diminishing returns as they have a cap in damage reduction in relative to the attacker's attack level.

However even then JoSDs are better than vit stones for seekers against R9 opponents with refines on armour of +9 or more.

lazertazer0x · January 2013

Hexalot, 100 defense levels WOULD mean zero damage if there where no attack levels on the attacker. I don't know where you get your info, but 2% damage reduction IS STILL 2% EVEN IF YOU ALREADY HAVE MANY DEFENSE LEVELS. 2% of 1000 is 20. Even if you already take out 96%, another 2% will STILL BE 20 LESS DAMAGE. Its not 2% damage reduction from the already reduced 96%, which WOULD be a diminishing return, but it doesn't work like that. It only reduces it from the initial damage.b:bye

Suikyo - Raging Tide · January 2013

Facerolled - Raging Tide wrote: »

The 'diminishing returns' concept you're modelling is flawed.

You're arguing the more vit stones you have the less return you get from an additional one because of the existing vit pool, adding less percentage increase. If we were to model it on that, anything you do in-game and life has 'diminishing returns'.

However for each vit stone you add there is a constant addition to HP, defences and regeneration, all of which are constant returns in the sense that it does not matter how much vit you had before, each additional unit will always add the same amount again. If anything it's JoSD that have diminishing returns as they have a cap in damage reduction in relative to the attacker's attack level.

However even then JoSDs are better than vit stones for seekers against R9 opponents with refines on armour of +9 or more.

+1, now, in thread, i think that if u pk a lot a DOT sharding is a bit better for a r9-3 seeker, because u have still like 80 def lvl but with dot u'll have like 140 atk lvl if u get the recast for a MAtchless wings, a golden blast helm and a Puzzle cube, and r9 ring u will get like 145 atk lvls and like 100 def lvl something like this but with more atk and def lvls i think, maybe ull get the new tome and all that and is gonna be still an amazing tank and an amazing DD b:laugh

Edit: dont count the supremacy ring, that thing doesnt exist here, u need the recast of the Sky cover instead which isnt that great but still amazing

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

lazertazer0x wrote: »

Hexalot, 100 defense levels WOULD mean zero damage if there where no attack levels on the attacker. I don't know where you get your info, but 2% damage reduction IS STILL 2% EVEN IF YOU ALREADY HAVE MANY DEFENSE LEVELS. 2% of 1000 is 20. Even if you already take out 96%, another 2% will STILL BE 20 LESS DAMAGE. Its not 2% damage reduction from the already reduced 96%, which WOULD be a diminishing return, but it doesn't work like that. It only reduces it from the initial damage.b:bye

PWI's mobs and Bosses have no attack levels. Ask anyone who has 100+ defense levels if the mobs/bosses do ZERO damage to them.

Better still... go duel someone who has 100+ defense levels, but first take off any gear/jones that may give you attack levels. See if you end up doing ZERO damage to them as well.

b:bye

Maelael - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Terrastrike - Lost City wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

Given that DoT and JoSD have a diminishing return as you use more, you'll eventually reach a point where it is less beneficial to add more defense levels/attack levels. The survivability depends on the attack level of the opponent. Given that DoT sharded Psychics in full third cast R9 can have over 170 attack levels, and that you won't be able to get close to that with defense levels, it may be more beneficial to focus on your base defenses.

I wish Asterelle read the Seeker forums ><

Was messing around with Pwcalc cause a seeker friend is working out some details:

http://www.aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=8&level=101&vit=5&mag=5&str=5&dex=5&hp=21000&pdef=15000&mres=6200&deflev=34&opplev=101&oppattlev=100&pdefbuff=150&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=35&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=5&dlevbuff=30&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=0&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=0&numSock=24

Totally sure.

150 attack levels:

http://www.aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=8&level=101&vit=5&mag=5&str=5&dex=5&hp=21000&pdef=15000&mres=6200&deflev=34&opplev=101&oppattlev=150&pdefbuff=150&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=35&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=5&dlevbuff=30&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=0&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=0&numSock=24

180 Attack Levels:

http://www.aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=8&level=101&vit=5&mag=5&str=5&dex=5&hp=21000&pdef=15000&mres=6200&deflev=34&opplev=101&oppattlev=185&pdefbuff=150&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=35&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=5&dlevbuff=30&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=0&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=0&numSock=24

Most of your opponents will have around 100 attack levels, with some Wizzies and Psys getting towards insane.

Even at 125, the new attack sort of average:

http://www.aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=8&level=101&vit=5&mag=5&str=5&dex=5&hp=21000&pdef=15000&mres=6200&deflev=34&opplev=101&oppattlev=125&pdefbuff=150&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=35&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=5&dlevbuff=30&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=0&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=0&numSock=24

JoSD is still way better. When you do those calcs you need to ensure you're putting in real stats.

Finally, you're considering about 5040 extra HP full buffed, and I thought someone said about an extra 10% reduce way back in the day on the barb forums for a full set of Vit Stones. That extra "HP Defense" goes nil once that 5040 is gone, and you're stuck at 10% reduction instead of 48% (ish...most like 30%) reduction overall. Jades are better, but you can make a case for evasion playing having the bigger pool means larger charm heals (I know I like it on my barb). You're also talking about a huge reduction on giant hits from casters vs a smaller reduction from the vit stones, and that 5040 amounts to a hill of beans vs a 40k hit that reduces to 36k instead of 21k (approximately, if all you had was the stones to reduce...its further than that).

nowitsawn has a full out damage calc, give it a try with the two builds before I do tomorrow.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

I tend to agree with the consensus that jades are the best shards that money can buy... assuming of course that your HP and defenses have reached a certain threshold where they can be most effective in maximizing survivability.

However having said that... we are talking about the Seeker class here... a class which (assuming sage) is given 40 defense lvls free via self buffs. That's just 8 short of what other classes get after spending a **** load of money for full JOSD sharding. My point is that this allows Seekers far more versatility when it comes to sharding choices than any other class out there. Therefore there really isn't any wrong way to shard a Seeker. Feel like your HP may be a bit lacking or your damage could do with a bit more bite ?

Go ahead and stick those Vit stones or DoTs in. No worries... your Seeker will still have more defense lvls and thus be more tanky than other fully Vit or DoT sharded class.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2013

well considering the amount of these josd arent abundant like a good year ago, its prolly better for pple to think otherwise >.> less buying competition lol

Sephroid - Archosaur · January 2013

after further research, i believe this would be the best build for all around playing, including being able to tank bosses, deal massive, damage, survive and thrive in pvp, etc. any comments, btw Def lc=vl would receive 5 more from sage then what is shown.

http://pwcalc.com/7782d4cace222476

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide · January 2013

Sephroid - Archosaur wrote: »

after further research, i believe this would be the best build for all around playing, including being able to tank bosses, deal massive, damage, survive and thrive in pvp, etc. any comments, btw Def lc=vl would receive 5 more from sage then what is shown.

http://pwcalc.com/7782d4cace222476

U could prob get a way better cape than the one you have on that.
U could prob get the new T3 tome which is x1000 better
U could prob shard with G12 phy attack gems which is way more dmg than that +2 attack lvl stones u currently have on weapon
U could prob engrave rings and try out for def/attack levels on em
U could prob get the new Morai upgraded necklace made from that cube neck and engrave that.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I tend to agree with the consensus that jades are the best shards that money can buy... assuming of course that your HP and defenses have reached a certain threshold where they can be most effective in maximizing survivability.

However having said that... we are talking about the Seeker class here... a class which (assuming sage) is given 40 defense lvls free via self buffs. That's just 8 short of what other classes get after spending a **** load of money for full JOSD sharding. My point is that this allows Seekers far more versatility when it comes to sharding choices than any other class out there. Therefore there really isn't any wrong way to shard a Seeker. Feel like your HP may be a bit lacking or your damage could do with a bit more bite ?

Go ahead and stick those Vit stones or DoTs in. No worries... your Seeker will still have more defense lvls and thus be more tanky than other fully Vit or DoT sharded class.

Heres the thing.

I can kill a DoT Seeker, and so far I havent had one kill me without help or a severely lucky zerk crit [which hasnt happened, but I know is possible].

I can kill a Vit Seeker. Just takes a bit more time and strategy over the DoT seeker.

I can't kill a JoSD seeker. I've tried. Repeatedly. They don't kill me either without that lucky zerk crit [has not happened yet either, but again possible...just as possible as the DoT].

In all cases, they become way easier and chumpy when purged. But the JoSD one holds up WAY better. DoT Seekers hit harder though on the more average of builds/gear/skill level of all classes out there though. JingYi hit over 3m I believe it was on the weekly rankings. So its more of a style - pick DoT or JoSD tho if you're trying to maximize either.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heres the thing.

I can kill a DoT Seeker, and so far I havent had one kill me without help or a severely lucky zerk crit [which hasnt happened, but I know is possible].

I can kill a Vit Seeker. Just takes a bit more time and strategy over the DoT seeker.

I can't kill a JoSD seeker. I've tried. Repeatedly. They don't kill me either without that lucky zerk crit [has not happened yet either, but again possible...just as possible as the DoT].

In all cases, they become way easier and chumpy when purged. But the JoSD one holds up WAY better. DoT Seekers hit harder though on the more average of builds/gear/skill level of all classes out there though. JingYi hit over 3m I believe it was on the weekly rankings. So its more of a style - pick DoT or JoSD tho if you're trying to maximize either.

My Seeker is full DoT and still standard R9 since I've preferred to take my time and farm NW slowly for Mats rather than rush to R9r (should get there in a couple more weeks however) knowing that I still don't have all the badges for R9rr plus extras for rerolls.

Basically I've got 120 attack lvls with jones (goes up to 130 with sacrif slash buff) or alternately... 102 attack levels/81 def levels with O'Malleys when switching to the defensive.

Do I wish I was tankier at times when compared to my full JoSD Seeker friends ?

Sure do. I'm definitely a one-two shot for just about any +12 R9rr Wizard out there as my HP is currently only 13.5K unbuffed. But here's the thing... I've lost count of the number of times I've 3 shot R9 Barbs... zerk or crits but no zerk/crits... with sacrificial slash debuff + metal skills alone. And my kill death ratio against R9 and R9r BMs is hugely lopsided in my favor... mainly I suppose because when I'm fully buffed, their damage typically isn't high enough to get past my charm without HF... which they dare don't use against me for obvious reasons.

I've fought one R9rr BM (could be more but that one I recognized) and I agree... he was virtually invincible to everything I threw at him. b:surrender

But that's cool with me since I don't expect anything less anyway when being out geared to that degree. He didn't kill me either but we weren't able to go at it 1 vs 1 long enough enough (chasing their flag carrier took priority... lol) to settle things between us one way or the other. I would like a rematch though once my Seeker becomes R9rr as well. b:chuckle

Ultimately what it comes down to... and as you alluded... is play style preference. I prefer a more hard hitting, risky play style and here in lies the beauty of the Seeker. Imagine a BM, Archer (and they are a bunch of Archers that do this lol) and Seeker sharding full Dots. All three will hit like trucks no doubt, with the Archer having the highest DPS and Seeker having highest spike damage from zerk crits. But which of the three would typically survive longest out there in NW or TW ?

The Seeker by far due to his defense buffs being nearly equivalent to full JoSD sharding. So basically a DoT Seeker gets to enjoy virtually the same benefits of a JoSD class while at the same time being able to hit harder than any of them. That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my post above about there being no wrong way to shard a Seeker.

And yes I know that a purged Seeker becomes more vulnerable than most other classes due to not having any other phys/magic/damage reduction self buffs to fall back on. b:chuckle

But here is the thing. When you're on a TW/NW battle field surrounded by enemy players of whom nearly all are R9/G16 +12, it really doesn't matter that much which class you are. Getting purged in that arena is pretty much a death sentence for anyone other than maybe a Barb... who can perhaps buy enough time with invoke/solid shield to beat a hasty exit.

But just about everyone else is screwed. Some may last longer than others, but unless you can stealth like a Sin or Archer... you're merely buying yourself a few more seconds at the most unless facing scrubbs.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Long post you can read above

-Everything is a 1-2 shot from a R9rr Wizard played right. Even R9rr JoSD +12 Barbs. Possibly god too.

-Seeker Zerk Crits are amazing vs all classes, tho tbh without the zerk they're not as awesome. I feel their damage uptake with recent patches combined with R9 to R9rr has really made them more noteworthy. I still say if the player was playing a more powerful CC or DD class the field itself would be more effective, but that is a class balance issue. I like them just fine when played well nowadays though.

-BMs sharding DoTs is fail. Seeker sword base damage is about 2-5k less than Axe damage at endgame, and the class is played quite different due to its CC specialty.

-Archer though is a different story, DoT archers can be tanky-ish at higher level refines, and there is a lot to JoSD and Vit styles. Right now I view them as rather even-ish when played to its sharded specialty. If you have a tanker DoT archer is the best, but solo-ish Vit/Jade works well. Having worked with and fought several Vit Stone archers, this may be one class I can say Vit is similar/almost on par with Jades. But its very very style dependent. Again with DoT, the range that Archers have is what makes up for the less tankyness being okay. Seekers are ranged, but not as ranged awesome as Archers, so its not a fair comparison (also, purge bow fomg).

-The Archer survives more, then the seeker, then the BM when played well. Couple CCs and range with the archer, they outdo the seeker in survival. The seeker survives longer due to the range and higher def levels. The BM is more in your face, but in the end is more of a threat than the seeker due to the CCs and amps. Damage wise I'd place the Seeker and BM about even solo, but group wise the BM is more effective. In close range the Archer dies first if it's CCs are resisted, and the Seeker and BM kinda survive the same...maybe with the Seeker edging out the BM.

-Of course all these assumptions go to hell depending on buffs. With how often I get purged in NW/TW (And puffbirded/kittyed...grrrrrrr), it's just essentially a crapshoot. Id say the BM typically survives better than the seeker (esp with marrows), but in reality they die faster because they are perceived as way more of a threat than the Seeker, and is in closer range than the archer - so a lot of the time is put down first.

-Some of the best duos for me, especially duo defends in NW has been teaming with a seeker. He can blow them away well while I tank, but at the same time tank really well too. But, Ive worked with a DoT archer and it was like...amazing cause they all died way faster while I was CCing and tanking. But now Im getting into teamwork and squad dynamics, which is really 9/10ths of the success viewpoint and its gonna become long.

-On the subject of the purged barb, there is more factors than you listed, but it's also not a DD class. When they're setup as a DD class it's just a matter of waiting out the def skill while your CDs elapse and you get chi, and they're easy prey if they don't have assistance. However, I can stun lock and fist down a heavy barb - seekers really don't have that CC and damage option.

-A few seconds is all I usually need really to get off a defense skill or antistun or speed something or chi...Ill take those few seconds easily, on my BM or Catabarb.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

We're not that far apart in agreement in most things (although I tend to see far more squishy R9 DoT Archers than tankish ones... assuming you don't let them stay at range and pew pew b:chuckle) and you're indeed right that the recent patch and now being able to zerk on all skill attacks has really turned the Seeker class around in most people's eyes... and that without zerk the class is basically at half it's potential... which basically describes the Seeker G16 Nirv build right now. b:surrender

However just a small nitpick on your comment below.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

-On the subject of the purged barb, there is more factors than you listed, but it's also not a DD class. When they're setup as a DD class it's just a matter of waiting out the def skill while your CDs elapse and you get chi, and they're easy prey if they don't have assistance. However, I can stun lock and fist down a heavy barb - seekers really don't have that CC and damage option.

While it's true Seekers don't have aps or the ability to wear fists to dps a Barb down, against HA classes in general they have something ten times better... Edged Blur.

While you've got to wait until the Barb's defense skills laps before you can go fists, with Seeker it's merely a case of debuffing his metal defenses with Ion spike and then Edge Blur's metal damage tears through his HP like a knife through butter... ignoring his def lvls, invoke, AD and whatever else the Barb can get off. If I triple spark > cloud erupt > Edged Blur... the Barb is looking at 15-20K damage per tick. That will beat his charm by a mile.

Finally... Seeker's single target CC is actual not as bad as most people think. b:chuckle

Heart Seeker combined with Void step locks an opponent down for 12 seconds. Add sage QPQ and you get an additional 3 sec silence on top of that. And then of course there is genie occult ice to add to the mix making Seekers fairly decent in the CC department. It's really only the "chance to freeze" from their various stances plus "so so" anti stun skills that has given them a bad rep.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · January 2013

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While it's true Seekers don't have aps or the ability to wear fists to dps a Barb down, against HA classes in general they have something ten times better... Edged Blur.

While you've got to wait until the Barb's defense skills laps before you can go fists, with Seeker it's merely a case of debuffing his metal defenses with Ion spike and then Edge Blur's metal damage tears through his HP like a knife through butter... ignoring his def lvls, invoke, AD and whatever else the Barb can get off. If I triple spark > cloud erupt > Edged Blur... the Barb is looking at 15-20K damage per tick. That will beat his charm by a mile.

At the same time, a BM can unload HF and do the same or more damage every three seconds without the triple spark needed. You're blowing your whole wad for something that a meaty barb could/should survive. Provided I don't **** up my locks, that Barb isn't surviving a stun lock HF APS beatdown. Also the BM is regenning chi, the Seeker is not.

On my barb, so far Edged Blur has mostly tickled, but I haven't had a really powerful Seeker unload it on me (some have the gear, but never used the skill - said faction's Seekers love failvortex in TW).

I'll have to play around, Im curious what would work against your combo vs my 31k pdef/13.5k mdef/72 Def Level/42khp Barb. Curious if it ticks pdef/mdef charms. Im also curious if the spark damage carries over in just the phys damage and the metal damage is separate, ie two separate sets of def to go through, or what. Ill see if Rav ended up learning the Demon version - hes not +12 (yet...) but it would at least be a good test.

But don't get me wrong, Edged Blur is a house when done right, I just haven't/don't see it as a good multiple other classes' options. Its great when comboed with another amp or class (I've done HF+EB vs a Barb, worked great).

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Finally... Seeker's single target CC is actual not as bad as most people think. b:chuckle

Heart Seeker combined with Void step locks an opponent down for 12 seconds. Add sage QPQ and you get an additional 3 sec silence on top of that. And then of course there is genie occult ice to add to the mix making Seekers fairly decent in the CC department. It's really only the "chance to freeze" from their various stances plus "so so" anti stun skills that has given them a bad rep.

Well really, in NW, I love Rav's "10 Sec Immobilized! Get HIM!" calls to go annihilate people, especially flag runners...not to mention said CC lets me gtfo while I have a flag.

(Also whirlwind is good for you guys too, not just OI.)

I mean its good, but it isnt what a BM can do with Smack, Drake Bash, Roar, Flame Tsunami, Reel In, Reckless Rush, Ocean's Edge/Fissure, and Aeolian for a risk. Hell Meteor rush if you're desperate.

Seekers have this like inbetween thing of tanky/cc and damage. The damage got greater tho, so they're a DD. It's a good class, but in terms of do you tank, CC, support, or deal damage...they aren't on or near tops compared to the other classes. It's like a jack of multiple trades master of kinda none that makes them good in small groups for NW, but not as "fomg" in larger groups in NW or TW. I like them much better now that the damage is fixed as said - before they were too far behind to be viewed as a threat or competitive, now they're up there to the point I'd bother with them.

Also I think they should make seekers (and barbs...) antistuns the same as BMs for a better rounded class in PK.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · January 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

At the same time, a BM can unload HF and do the same or more damage every three seconds without the triple spark needed. You're blowing your whole wad for something that a meaty barb could/should survive. Provided I don't **** up my locks, that Barb isn't surviving a stun lock HF APS beatdown. Also the BM is regenning chi, the Seeker is not.

Barb's invoke = 20 seconds of near invulnerability. Solid shield adds another 12 seconds of damage reduction with good strength genie. Your HF plus whatever damage you can cook up isn't going to even tickle the Barb during that time. You're basically stuck with having to wait out his buffs before you can do any noticeable damage while trying to keep him locked down till his def skills run out..... unless you plan to whip out a purge pole and try your luck.

Edged Blur on the other hand bypasses both Invoke & solid shield (and defense charms) while doing pure magic (metal) damage.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

On my barb, so far Edged Blur has mostly tickled, but I haven't had a really powerful Seeker unload it on me (some have the gear, but never used the skill - said faction's Seekers love failvortex in TW).

I'll have to play around, Im curious what would work against your combo vs my 31k pdef/13.5k mdef/72 Def Level/42khp Barb. Curious if it ticks pdef/mdef charms. Im also curious if the spark damage carries over in just the phys damage and the metal damage is separate, ie two separate sets of def to go through, or what. Ill see if Rav ended up learning the Demon version - hes not +12 (yet...) but it would at least be a good test.

But don't get me wrong, Edged Blur is a house when done right, I just haven't/don't see it as a good multiple other classes' options. Its great when comboed with another amp or class (I've done HF+EB vs a Barb, worked great).

You say your Barb has 13.5K magic defenses right ?

Ion spike's 50% debuff will knock the metal component down to a smidgen under 10K. That's just in the ball park needed for me to deliver a world of hurt. Don't forget one of the big changes the recent expansion gave is that EB is now multiplied by my attack levels... and and my attack levels cannot be neutralized by my opponent's defense levels. That last part is very important. So basically when I launch EB on someone, the damage is now boosted by 120% (attack lvls) and then there is a double my crit rate chance of damage being further increased by one and a half times... all the while being metal debuffed by ion spike. The only time my EB really "tickles" is when cast on AA classes with 20K+ magic defense.

Having said all of that... 42K HP (b:shocked) is still a chunk of health to eat through and it's unlikely I would be able to kill your Barb using EB alone short of maybe sparking and hoping for the x 1.5 non crit damage to proc. Fortunately EB is "cast and forget" meaning I can trigger it and still use other attacks simultaneously so that and a lucky zerk/crit and who knows ? I could be in with a shot.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well really, in NW, I love Rav's "10 Sec Immobilized! Get HIM!" calls to go annihilate people, especially flag runners...not to mention said CC lets me gtfo while I have a flag.

(Also whirlwind is good for you guys too, not just OI.)

I mean its good, but it isnt what a BM can do with Smack, Drake Bash, Roar, Flame Tsunami, Reel In, Reckless Rush, Ocean's Edge/Fissure, and Aeolian for a risk. Hell Meteor rush if you're desperate.

Oh... I would never argue or pretend that Seekers have CC skills on the level of a BM or Sin. Obviously those classes were designed for just that... being generally non-ranged and having to deal with a lot of kiting opponents. I was just pointing out that the much ballyhooed knock on Seekers having no real CC skills has been overly exaggerated by people who have no clue about the class.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Seekers have this like inbetween thing of tanky/cc and damage. The damage got greater tho, so they're a DD. It's a good class, but in terms of do you tank, CC, support, or deal damage...they aren't on or near tops compared to the other classes. It's like a jack of multiple trades master of kinda none that makes them good in small groups for NW, but not as "fomg" in larger groups in NW or TW. I like them much better now that the damage is fixed as said - before they were too far behind to be viewed as a threat or competitive, now they're up there to the point I'd bother with them.

Also I think they should make seekers (and barbs...) antistuns the same as BMs for a better rounded class in PK.

I guess it just depends on one's personal view about what's important in a class visa vis previously established roles and hierarchies.

You say Seekers are a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I say TW has never before had a class that is tanky enough to plant themselves firmly on the front lines and be nearly unkillable (R9rr +12 full JoSD Seeker)... all the while dropping aoe metal zerk/crits that can one-shot nearly anything (what did Asterelle call it ? oh yeah... it's like giving a Wizard a Gof wand b:chuckle). And with a R9rr's crit rate (with Emperor's tome) approaching 40%, zerk crits are going to be far common than some might think.

That sounds like a one of a kind class to me. Wizards may hit harder... but they are much more group dependant for protection and basically are stuck in the back lines waiting for the BMs to push forward and stun/HF targets. I don't have time to TW as much as I used to. But the faction we TW'd against shortly after the last reset had the server's first R9rr +12 full JoSD Wizard and everywhere he went on the battle field, he had like 4 Clerics following and continuously IHing him just for him to survive being the priority target. b:laugh

Sephroid - Archosaur · January 2013

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

U could prob get a way better cape than the one you have on that.
U could prob get the new T3 tome which is x1000 better
U could prob shard with G12 phy attack gems which is way more dmg than that +2 attack lvl stones u currently have on weapon
U could prob engrave rings and try out for def/attack levels on em
U could prob get the new Morai upgraded necklace made from that cube neck and engrave that.

okay, idk what a T3 Tome is, i have never used a tome before so if you could tell me which one, ill find it, but hows this? (btw thanks for responding haha)

http://pwcalc.com/fe40145e22f2df9c

IHaxJoo - Raging Tide · January 2013

Sephroid - Archosaur wrote: »

okay, idk what a T3 Tome is, i have never used a tome before so if you could tell me which one, ill find it, but hows this? (btw thanks for responding haha)

http://pwcalc.com/fe40145e22f2df9c

the T3 tome has vit+45 str +45 mag+45 dex+45 along with channeling, crit and speed boost lol

Best seeker possible

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