a lil math

kamukaze
kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Assassin
Hi. I'm a sage sin and its very annoying that i dont get party invites as demons. I made some calculations for proove that is better to have a sage sin in squad. Lets speak about equailent geared 3.33/5aps sins
Lets see. Boss has x amount of hp. Demon does 1.5x more amount dmg than sage. If you are 2 in team then sage does 0.4x dmg, demon does 0.6x dmg, but ofc sages always starts with rib, it means instant 0.1x dmg. So if sage start with rib (and why not lol) then demon does 0.9*0.6=0.54x dmg. Ok you can say 54%is more than 46% but lets see what happens if we have 2demon sins in squad. Now demon sins does 0.375x each and sage does 0.25x. Lets see that with sage rib. 0.9*0.375=0.3375 each when sage does 0.325. If you have 3 or more demon sins in squad then sage could do more dmg than demons, or what do you think? Ok i know deicides can reduce maxhp too or an archer or veno, but i speak about steahlt through runs
Post edited by kamukaze on

Comments

  • Azizsixer - Raging Tide
    Azizsixer - Raging Tide Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Umm...I think this is really a moot point abt now.

    There is literally NO instance that cannot be solo'd by a sufficiently gear sin regardless of cultivation so it really doesn't matter.

    If you can't find a sqd, then make it simple. The math doesn't matter since the boss is gona drop in a few secs with an all sin sqd anyway. especially if you're looking at 3.33/5aps sqds.

    Just throwing this out there G13 sux **** on the hierarchy of sin weps. At the very least I'm sure a demon sin using G15's will out dd a G13 sin.

    And just for the lulz...if you ask for a sqd and they tell u aps? or link wep...say sorry u changed ur mind then proceed to link G16 wep and watch as the beg u to rejoin LOL
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Just throwing this out there G13 sux **** on the hierarchy of sin weps. At the very least I'm sure a demon sin using G15's will out dd a G13 sin.

    Not so much for a Sage sin, actually.

    For a Sage sin, a G15 with GoF and -0.05 interval is barely any better than a G13 Nirvana. Add in the fact that the latter can freely use Power Dash and Subsea, and the advantage tilts to the G13.

    Though that's still just dps.

    Personally I'm going to stick with my +10 G13 for now. The costs of upgrading to a G15 with SS/-interval aren't worth it, considering that I got other places that could use upgrades.

    But yes, there's a ton of weapons that have better stats than the G13. G15, G16, R9, R9r, R9rr.

    And honestly, if we're talking squads, it doesn't really matter. A squad full of +10s is going to tear anything to shreds far too fast.

    People need to stop arguing Sage vs Demon from a DPS aspect. It's been done way too many times. Identical Gear, Demon > Sage. Identical costs, Demon > Sage. Idealized gear, Demon = Sage. Unfair gear, Demon < Sage.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Who speak about g13/g15 weapons? I speak about sins with same gear, and 3.33/5 aps is the most common. We could speak about 2,86/4 aps, only attackrate difference matters. I dont wanna discuss about g13/g15 couse i already got g16 with good roll (-0.05 int +37dex)... Ok i can solo many things but its an mmo. If i wanna play alone then i play with another game.
    I just want to say that point could be fail thats says: sages are useless and they does significant lower dmg than demons.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    kamukaze wrote: »
    Who speak about g13/g15 weapons? I speak about sins with same gear, and 3.33/5 aps is the most common. We could speak about 2,86/4 aps, only attackrate difference matters. I dont wanna discuss about g13/g15 couse i already got g16 with good roll (-0.05 int +37dex)... Ok i can solo many things but its an mmo. If i wanna play alone then i play with another game.
    I just want to say that point could be fail thats says: sages are useless and they does significant lower dmg than demons.

    For most bosses, 10% hp is about the time it takes you to channel your rib strike. For that matter, demon Rib Strike is preferred by most people.

    5.0 vs 3.33 is a 50% damage difference. Thats significant enough.

    Demon Wolf Emblem usually favors demons in a dps race.

    Mastery favors sages by less than 1%.

    If you talk anything less than a 5.0 vs 3.33, like you said a 4.0 vs 2.86 then you are comparing perma sparked vs non permasparked. Sure, sin's can do 3+ sparks with just 2.86 aps by using skills, but while one sin takes 2 seconds to channel RDS the other sin attacks 8 more times.

    Sage sins always bring up windshield spamming, my rebuttal is that if you are give a sage 4aps to compare to a 5 aps demon, then give the demon 20% more dps also for EP spam, or about 34% more for EP+Frenzy spam. Easier to just not consider genies as both can utilize them differently.

    Demon sins have more weapon versatility. I'll say "slightly" more weapon versatility because it depends on your goals. As Olba pointed out sages using 4 aps G13s have similar dps to sages using r9 at 2.86 aps. And... Barrier Thorns really suck. For the survivability bump that permasparking and the constant flow of bloodpaint that high aps provides, they're great. But for raw dps, they're quite pitiful. Off the top of my head +12 G13s at 4 aps comes in at +8 G15 zerks at 3.33 aps and less than 3.33 aps G16 unrefined.

    Ignoring -.25 r8r gear setups, most people would consider G15/G16/r9+ an endgame dagger. Compare the dph or the dps of those to a G13. So equal weapons at 5 aps and 3.33 aps the demon will do around 50% more damage, but when the demon is using G16 at 5 aps and the sage is doing 4 aps with G13s...




    All that being said, I really don't care sage or demon. 99% of the time I just want a sin for the bloodpaint for pulling. And I really don't care sage or demon paint and laugh everytime a sage sin feels the need to whisper me "Sage paint sin." In a decent barb pulls I'm getting like 30k heals from each aoe i do with demon paint. That's plenty. Against bosses on my bm, sin, and barb I get areound 20k hp per second in demon paint. The fact that sage boosts that to 45k heals and 30k heals doesn't matter since either way I'm full most the time.

    When a sin whispers they whisper "sin." Not their culti. No cleric ever whispers "sage cleric" while LF a squad. If they recognize you as a sage sin and care enough not to invite you its because you're doing something else wrong.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And... Barrier Thorns really suck. For the survivability bump that permasparking and the constant flow of bloodpaint that high aps provides, they're great. But for raw dps, they're quite pitiful. Off the top of my head +12 G13s at 4 aps comes in at +8 G15 zerks at 3.33 aps and less than 3.33 aps G16 unrefined.

    You're off by quite a bit:
    4.0 Barrier Thorn +12 with 2x Garnet Gems: ((603+904)*0.5+787+150)*4*0.95 = 6,423
    3.33 Dark Death Thorn +8 with 2x Garnet Gems: ((658+1028)*0.5+273+150)*3.33*1.15 = 4,848
    3.33 G16 +0 with 2x Garnet Gems: ((754+1131)*0.5+150)*3.33*1.4 = 5,093

    Reversing the above equations, we get the following results:
    3.33 G16 +8 < 4.0 G13 +12 < 3.33 G16 +9
    3.33 G15 +11 < 4.0 G13 +12 < 3.33 G15 +12

    Unless of course you were thinking from a perspective of a Demon, in which case 3.33 and 4.0 are both equivalent to 5.0, thus making for a dumb-as-**** comparison in the first place.

    Naturally, if you lower the refines, the G13 takes the largest dive. At +10, we have:
    3.33 G15 +8 < 4.0 G13 +10 < 3.33 G15 +9
    3.33 G16 +2 < 4.0 G13 +10 < 3.33 G16 +3

    Personally, the reason I am sticking with my G13 +10 is because even if I went to G15 +10 with zerk and 1x -0.05, I would end up losing DPS as the lower attack speed would disallow me from constant usage of Power Dash and Subsea, thus the only gain would be seeing overall bigger numbers. And let's face it, if I wanted DPS with big numbers, I would've sticked with my archer.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    When a sin whispers they whisper "sin." Not their culti. No cleric ever whispers "sage cleric" while LF a squad. If they recognize you as a sage sin and care enough not to invite you its because you're doing something else wrong.


    Did you see in world chat like that? Looking for cleric pm weapon(or pm -chan xD just jk). At "dd class" most ppl focus on dps but no1 focuses on supporting skills(except demon hf). Many ppl think sage sin= sage bp, nothing else
    I usually dont pm sage sin or so, but when they ask aps then i thougt i have to say something why have i only 2.86 or 3.33 intead magical 5aps. Nowadays i see some sins in tt90 with barriern thorn, and i'm not 1of them. Its just weird but its an another topic.

    10%hp for example at ws last boss i think its worth 1-2sec channeling time

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