Sage Wolf emblem... 30 min?

BlueAmbition - Lost City · December 2012

Did I read right? Does it say 30 min? From 30 seconds to 30 min?

opkossy · December 2012

Yep.

And a super decreased cooldown so you can spam it for chi (like a SAGE sin would really need it).

The drawback to the permanent wolf-emblem, is that the damage boost is lowered from 30% to 20% so each individual crit will hit for less damage than level 10... but since you'd have it on permanently, you'd get a better result (outside of spike damage oriented PvP or the like) overall.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2012

OPKossy wrote: »

since you'd have it on permanently, you'd get a better result (outside of spike damage oriented PvP or the like) overall.

I'd argue this, but it all depends on if you are good about using WE or not. I have demon and use it all the time. I pretty much have it on 100% of the time, actually.

In PvE most bosses don't take longer than 30 seconds to kill. Even if it does take longer you'll still do more dd with demon WE then sage as long as you spam it. Even level 10 wolf emblem would be better than sage 45 seconds out of every 60.

Stealth between mob groups, WE, kill the guards/boss. Stealth away. In a squad there is usually at least 30 seconds between pulls for WE cooldown and most encounters don't take longer than 30 seconds.

In PvP the spike damage difference can end fights, as long as you know how to time WE's cooldowns. A 5k crit becomes a 6k with sage, 7k with demon. A 10k crit is 12k sage, 14k demon. 1-2k damage difference each crit attack is huge in pvp.

Tsyren - Archosaur · December 2012

It depends more on whether you prefer consistency or not.

As Sakubatou mentioned it can produce a massive spike in damage - however, only for half the time.

In PvE, personally I think one time only deals - bosses, and rooms to AoE like in FC - are going to give Demon Wolf Emblem an advantage, because the interval between the mobs is long enough to CD. When dealing with a constant onslaught of mobs - perhaps grinding or in an event - Sage Wolf Emblem is preferred, because it's always on.

In PvP I also think the same situations apply. In Group PvP, a sin pops out now and then and destroys anything in their path, then stealths off and waits for CDs. Therefore, Demon is preferred.
However, I think it's a matter of preference with 1v1s. The extra 40% to your maybe 35% crit rate might be enough to kill someone if you're demon; however, the 10 chi from the sage version every 8 seconds is actually useful.

Given 10 minute 1v1, ->600 seconds -> 75 uses -> 7.5 sparks, which can be the difference between life and death in PvP (obviously).

skaitavia · December 2012

As Kossy stated, you're correct about the times. It becomes a permanent buff increase at a sacrifice of losing 10% crit damage over level 10 WE.

It balances out between consistency over time for both cultivations. Sages will have 20% more crit damage for a whole minute of the time, whereas Demons will have 40% for the first 30 seconds, and then no extra crit damage for the last 30 seconds.

The only difference is that Sages can spam it for chi, and Demons will spike harder with it.

Xainou - Sanctuary · December 2012

Another thing to consider: I got sage wolf emblem because I don't need to rebuff in the middle of a longer lasting boss fight. That time lost rebuffing does make a big difference when you're not that crazily geared that you can just tank away unsparked and not hitting the boss.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

That time lost...

On an instant skill? I normally can fit it inbetween attacks without a break in the animation. I continue attacking and blood splatters around me without me every changing my attack rate. In reality I probably am losing 1 attack or .2 seconds of dd, but that's imperceptible.

Dunno if I would ever learn sage WE even if someone gave me the skill and the coin to learn it. Learning the skill that lowers your dd output as a matter of convenience from having to rebuff isn't my style. I'd prefer to just remember to use level 10 and have the extra dd.

opkossy · December 2012

It's a matter of convenience and practicality vs application and theory.

In a sustained PvE battle, sage wolf emblem is going to be slightly better or average out to the same as demon BECAUSE its always up so you're not wasting any time pausing your attacks to cast it or forgetting about it/leaving it off when you aren't using an amp and so on and so forth. While it's equal in theory, very few people are going to keep it up whenever it's off cooldown in practice. Plus, those seemingly small things will add up over the course of any sustained battle.

In PvP, on the other hand, or when doing AoEs or dealing with a boss that can be killed quickly, the spikes from demon and level 10 will be better because of not only the higher DPH (which may even contribute to being able to kill that fast in the first place), but also the fact that it's being concentrated into burst damage and so by the next time you need it, the skill will likely be off cooldown.

In essence, if it allows you to kill whatever you're fighting within the duration it's active or if you have a mobile opponent and have to be smart about when to use it to maximize your damage, as is the case in PvP, then Demon and level 10 will be better because all sage will have to offer is... chi for a class that craps chi out of places they don't even know they have. If, on the other hand, you're doing some sort of longer and drawn-out battle In PvE (IE: Soloing some high HP level ? boss or whatever) then sage will wind up as better for you or at the very worst break even to what someone spamming demon would achieve.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · December 2012

OPKossy wrote: »

In a sustained PvE battle, sage wolf emblem is going to be slightly better or average out to the same as demon BECAUSE its always up so you're not wasting any time pausing your attacks to cast it or forgetting about it/leaving it off when you aren't using an amp and so on and so forth. While it's equal in theory, very few people are going to keep it up whenever it's off cooldown in practice. Plus, those seemingly small things will add up over the course of any sustained battle.

Not to mention that they only average to the same in a purely theoretical scenario where you instantly refresh Wolf Emblem the moment it's out of cooldown.

In PvP, on the other hand, or when doing AoEs or dealing with a boss that can be killed quickly, the spikes from demon and level 10 will be better because of not only the higher DPH (which may even contribute to being able to kill that fast in the first place), but also the fact that it's being concentrated into burst damage and so by the next time you need it, the skill will likely be off cooldown.

The higher DPH argument is only applicable when you're actually critting, which is going to be about 35-45% of the time. And even then, the difference between the damage is around 13%. That can be pushed down to just 5% if we shift the discussion to Earthen Rift, which has the highest damage potential on an Assassin.

But yes, Sage Wolf Emblem is largely a convenience skill. Was convenient enough for me to decide on Sage before I even made my sin. And it was quite late that I got my Wolf Emblem. Now for that Sage Subsea somehow...

Azizsixer - Raging Tide · December 2012

I think WE is just one of those skills that most sins looked at when considering cultivation.

There are just those ppl tht prefer demon/lvl10 to the sage version.

Imo i love sage WE as its a great benefit during events such as tigers/NW/TW.

A lot of ppl may say stealth and wait on cds while in TW (recently NW) but tht's just not my style. I can't just go easy mode and wait til the situation is perfect for me to strike then activate WE and boom easy kill. So having WE on helps especially when I'm out of stealth and in long sustained PvP. Sometimes its not about getting the kill but ticking certain high priority targets charms in TW forcing them to retreat or use apoth.

After all its not always about killing but instead using strategy...this is usually my role in TW. Our squad is tasked with being on the front line and breaking up enemy groups so i suppose having WE on all the time is a benefit as it allows you to have that little edge when in a tight spot or facing a surprise attack. (like a sin popping out of stealth with a stun: Faith > TC > RDS > continue)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2012

Azizsixer - Raging Tide wrote: »

I think WE is just one of those skills that most sins looked at when considering cultivation.

There are just those ppl tht prefer demon/lvl10 to the sage version.

Imo i love sage WE as its a great benefit during events such as tigers/NW/TW.

A lot of ppl may say stealth and wait on cds while in TW (recently NW) but tht's just not my style. I can't just go easy mode and wait til the situation is perfect for me to strike then activate WE and boom easy kill. So having WE on helps especially when I'm out of stealth and in long sustained PvP. Sometimes its not about getting the kill but ticking certain high priority targets charms in TW forcing them to retreat or use apoth.

After all its not always about killing but instead using strategy...this is usually my role in TW. Our squad is tasked with being on the front line and breaking up enemy groups so i suppose having WE on all the time is a benefit as it allows you to have that little edge when in a tight spot or facing a surprise attack. (like a sin popping out of stealth with a stun: Faith > TC > RDS > continue)

You're prolly not as squishy as I am

30 seconds in many fights is enough to end a sin. Likewise, 30 seconds in many fights is all most sins need to kill you. The trick is using WE for damage bursts to 1 or 2 shot AA/LA and to use it to setup take downs of harder opponents. If the fight lasts longer than 30 seconds np, kite or teleport away or just stun/silence/sleep for a few seconds while you setup charm bipasses and damage burst to take down people past their charms.

Its similar how a BM would setup a charm jump with HF. If you have a 36% crit rate, You will be doing 28.4% more damage with demon WE, sage is a 16.5% more damage while active. That's 10.2% more dps demons have with active WE over sages. The argument being demon WE has to be active for it to be any good. More importantly, these spike burst are what will help you end fights while the 10.2% damage difference and lower spike damage of sages might not.

Anytime you kite them or they kite you is pretty much cd for WE. I'd say in PvP I have it active about 85% of the time while attacking because I know how to use it.

I also

demon WE in events where the CoA bosses take about 2-3 sparks to kill. Less if I have a competitor. Same with tiger events where WE can be active about 70% of the actual killing time.

I also enjoy the heal boost of demon WE. If I have trouble tanking a boss, like Metal can be tricky, you can use WE for a large paint heal boost. I use it opposite of Focused Mind. Focused Mind allows me to avoid 25% of the bosses attacks and demon WE increases my dps and paint heals by 28%. I use both at the start and WE coolsdown as FM ends.

Sage Wolf emblem... 30 min?

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