Nation Wars: Balanced?

Desdi - Sanctuary · December 2012

Oh I didn't mean to be solo the whole time, my bad XD but yeah, my point is that I support the idea of being able to squad only inside NW itself. Squading beforehand is already kinda useless since most of the time the majority of the squads end up being separated.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

The entering a squad feature should be removed.

When you enter the base, you cannot see anyone else in your base, they are in a stealth state that no one can see through. People imeadietely then separate into different battles. I think you should have to enter NW solo, and the entrance should open 10 minutes earlier (8:10 Server time). Once you enter the base, the stealth state should be removed. This will allow you to make a squad with people who got randomly put into your nation, instead of a squad that you made before going inside

No. 300 people in 1 screen will crash 75% of the people there minimum. TW is difficult for a lot of people on 80 vs 80 as it is for 160 players doing flashy animations all at once. Imagine 300 people at once on your computer....and say goodbye to it. That's the whole reason to not seeing others. This is under the reasoning DW has 1200+ people every NW...300+ per nation.

Desdi - Sanctuary · December 2012

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. 300 people in 1 screen will crash 75% of the people there minimum. TW is difficult for a lot of people on 80 vs 80 as it is for 160 players doing flashy animations all at once. Imagine 300 people at once on your computer....and say goodbye to it. That's the whole reason to not seeing others. This is under the reasoning DW has 1200+ people every NW...300+ per nation.

I do agree with that but If I recall correctly we can't see other players using T while in base/stealth. Maybe being able to see them that way (as well as simply communicating via the NW chat) would solve things.

The main change I'd love to see is being able to enter NW 10 minutes earlier to form squads once we're inside etc.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. 300 people in 1 screen will crash 75% of the people there minimum. TW is difficult for a lot of people on 80 vs 80 as it is for 160 players doing flashy animations all at once. Imagine 300 people at once on your computer....and say goodbye to it. That's the whole reason to not seeing others. This is under the reasoning DW has 1200+ people every NW...300+ per nation.

Yea im aware of that, people could still be invisible. but actually being able to see who was with you in squad finder and common chat would be great

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yea im aware of that, people could still be invisible. but actually being able to see who was with you in squad finder and common chat would be great

That's a great suggestion, I +1 itb:victory

Jaabg - Sanctuary · December 2012

sinpwi1 wrote: »

Come on now. I have watched up to a dozen people try to take down a cata barb. They stun him, pound on him for a while and then watch him waltz away with the flag when everyone's stuns skills are on cool down.

An opposing archer was knocking us down like bowling pins with one shot. Then basically moon walking with the flag for the win.

I even saw a psy today get attacked by a bm and 2 sins, take all the damage, after the stuns wore off he easily killed them and then one shot two other people. Me and another sin just giggled in squad chat and flew away while the psy ran off with the flag.

What i refer to pk/pvp experience is this.

Demon roar - 6 second stun, 14 sec cool down (opening move)

DD for 5 seconds (skill cast+chan time let's you know)

Drake bash (lvl 10, since demon is expensive) - 6 seconds cool down 15 seconds.

Dd for 5 seconds

At this juncture a person uses Occult ice (i don't have that, i use smack). 3 second seal

That is 14~17 seconds. My roar is back on by this time, and i can do the above cycle again. If there are other bm i play with often, we just naturally mesh out our roar timings. There is no point i roar, 2nd bm roars, sin uses head hunt in 3~4 seconds. That is a waste of stuns. People need to watch buff icons. In the beginning it is hard to do all these things, especially when getting nuked by other classes, but that is where the fun is.

Psy's i avoid generally to, they one shot me even at 14k hp, but that does not mean i don't stun and dd them. I just don't do it alone. A stunned and sealed psy, with support from your other dd's = dead psy.

Archers hit hard. They hit me for 4~6k normal hit, 12k~14k crits. My simple defense is, i use hp pot, i click diamon sutra, my charm ticks. In between those 3 item, i can fly away or fly towards an archer and live. If things are bad, i use a pan gu essense. Due to recent r9 sale, i find that archers i get close to and stun, just stand there and die. They may have high weapon refine, but armour refine is low. Worst cases i use ad if things are horribly wrong.

There are lots of things people can use but tend not to. I for one never use my sword skills even though they are ranged and slow down channeling or interrupt it, with time i'll get around to it.

I have by no means OP gear, i just refined most pieces to +7 and put flawless cits everywhere. Having low refines, bad weapon refines, bad weapon and expecting to kill r9 people is not going to happen. Over the next few weeks as r9 3rd cast people start popping up, i will be in your boat, 20k hp won't mean a thing, but i will continue to improve my gear and have fun at this nw.

WangZi - Dreamweaver · December 2012

I personally find that squading before NW starts is just a way to get people in the same nation as you, since odds are you'll be separated once the real deal starts. And you don't necessarily have to be in squad to work together with random people in the same battle. Sure it's easier but if you're good at what you do, you don't need to be in the same squad b:surrender

For instance, one example of teamwork would be: the enemy got the flag and is making their way towards the capture point. You can tell from the way the flag is moving on the map that he's encountered some opposition (your teammates). So I just decided to go closer to the capture point and wait for the flagbearer to show up after using up their anti-stun and whatnot, and behold, he comes running with a group of my teammates on his tail. I stun him, HF, teammates go all over him, gg. No communication whatsoever and perfect teamwork \o/ -trololol-

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · December 2012

WangZi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I personally find that squading before NW starts is just a way to get people in the same nation as you, since odds are you'll be separated once the real deal starts. And you don't necessarily have to be in squad to work together with random people in the same battle. Sure it's easier but if you're good at what you do, you don't need to be in the same squad b:surrender

For instance, one example of teamwork would be: the enemy got the flag and is making their way towards the capture point. You can tell from the way the flag is moving on the map that he's encountered some opposition (your teammates). So I just decided to go closer to the capture point and wait for the flagbearer to show up after using up their anti-stun and whatnot, and behold, he comes running with a group of my teammates on his tail. I stun him, HF, teammates go all over him, gg. No communication whatsoever and perfect teamwork \o/ -trololol-

Squading though, allows people to get in same nation. The biggest factions in game on Sanctuary, Legendary and Vindicate, seem to put all their best into the same squads, these squads get together, and when they enter, all enter together, often, multiple of these super squads end up in the same nation, by 1/4 random chance. it has resulted in a week where dark nation had as much total points at the end as the other 3 nations combined, along with base lock of the whole map
Squading inside = no super squads

pixygrove · December 2012

I'm no sure if the discussion has moved on to something else by now but from the original post I can say that as-of right now things may seem unbalanced because there is the chance that once players are divided they may have more higher lvls in one Nation than another but honestly? If you are a low level it will inspire you through the week to level and learn your toon so you can be more effective in Nation Wars.
Not to mention if you are lower level, you don't really need as much money for your gear as you would when you get higher level. I make and buy TT gear pretty regularly for myself and others and I know that on average any peice of twilight if purchased from AH or catshop is about 1-8 mil per peice depending on weather you make it or buy it and depending on how much mats are going for (Not including TT99 obviously but again- this is for lower levels). Use the few tokens you get to make as much money as you can, buy your TT gear then put the rest to the side for Rep and R9 later or save it for nirvy gear.

Now that money and mats are easier to get in NW, a large sum of people now have nirvy gear or r9 which is nothing to sneeze at. When NW first started I could parade my archer through, run laps around the territory and eventually meander over to turn in the flag at my own leisure because I could buffalo anyone on the opposite side. (Okay maybe a little exaggeration but there was very little resistance). Now as people can afford better gear they are becoming increasingly tanky and nationwars are becoming more balanced on their own as everyone gets upgraded.

-One more thing-
I can understand the frustration that comes when constantly being one shotted by r9's - but if you think about NationWars and put a little strategy into it you can avoid that r9 that is one-shotting you.
-Example-
If you are fighting at the North side of your territory and there is an r9 there then once the war has ended that r9 is still going to be in that area, because unless they port back to base they will probably move forward pushing into your land since they now know it's an easy win (assuming the people defending are all low-ish level). Obviously if you don't want to continue to have your butt handed to you by that toon then you can look at the map, port back to base instantly, then move to land on the opposite side of the map. You may even find some r9's on your side to cover your back while you fight so you stand a chance at more tokens, but if you just move to land in the same area as where you just ended then that toon will likely follow you and will probably just keep killing you.
I think it was Einstein that said - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
-Also-
I consider the Nationwars to be a gift from PWI, in the sense that - they are giving us a way to make a substantial amount of money in game that way everyone on the server doesn't have to charge thousands of dollars to get r9 or get into nirvy squads with people that only want 5 aps sins. Some days you may not be on the winning side and you may not get as many tokens but ffs it happens 2x every weeks. If you didn't get a ton today, learn what you can do to make tomorrow more benificial instead of complaining about everthing being so unfair. They are making it so that people who otherwise may not have had a chance at amazing gear, now have the opprotunity to better themselves without paying real money for it. I see it like PWI is handing me money. I take it and run whereas other people look at it and whine that it isn't very much. It's a-hell-of-a-lot better than where you were before, and if you don't agree then NationWars is an optional event so go farm your TT mats and stop wasting time QQ'ing.

This will probably be the only post I have on NationWars, but it's been bugging me since I've seen people crying about it from every level. Even if you are R9 it will help you with recast and it will give you the chance to upgrade other gear. If you are THAT against it then it's optional. Figure your lives out before you QQ at free money.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2012

Temprus - Archosaur wrote: »

I think it's time to address an issue: NW is not balanced. If you make a team full of r9 third cast players, and only, you will carry your nation to victory, no?

i dont think so. Cause when you move from land to land its a first come first serve basis. So basically not everyone gets in the same land even if your in the same nation. And since the left over pple also want to fight, they will end up going a different direction = all the party members will most likely get spread out. At the most youll see 1 if not 2 members of your full squad LUCKILY end up in a same land as you later on. And as we know, team works makes the most difference.

I think squading is kinda pointless because of this but i squad just for the fun of it.

My own suggestions are:
No parties allowed, only solo PvP (as it should be)

you end up like that anyway. ;o

Base the nations off of gear/refines

the rich will just get richer, not that i mind this one.

Make spawnkilling impossible (Buff that allows you to oneshot on the spawnpoint, longer invulnerability, etc.)

Isnt that what the golden buff is there for tho? o.o

Knownase - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Squading is great for having friends/like-minded in the same nation.

However, might be just me, but aren't squads once in NW, have a big chance at breaking apart and being split up among lands?

MANray_ - Sanctuary · December 2012

I'm kind of neutral on whether people should be allowed to enter in squads, I certainly do think the actual effect of so called "super squads" is being exagerated on this thread. And on balance, it would defeat the purpose of progression to fully equate the capacities of all players. The NW buffs and the overseer's blessing are meant to give you a fighting chance, not to eliminate level/gears advantages. I personally get a lot of satisfaction out of sometimes hitting well above my weight and don't get frustrated losing on scenarios in which I realize there was really nothing to do. On further limiting the info available on other players I'm certainly aganst, especially when it comes to HP bars, as this is specially important when it comes to effective fighting for those of us undergeared/underleveled, and in the end would only benefit the status quo.

I think there's certainly room for improving NW mechanics (with the map getting fixed I think transit times, and perhaps even battle duration, should be next on the list) but relative strenght I don't see as a problem.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Squading is great for having friends/like-minded in the same nation.

However, might be just me, but aren't squads once in NW, have a big chance at breaking apart and being split up among lands?

My squad always try to get into the same lands together whenever possible and work together so it pays off ultimately every now and then. Might only be 2 of us squeezing into 1 land but that's more then enough reason to have a squad.

Fonyan - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Just a tiny remark to the poster saying it would make no sense if a lvl 60 got more tokens than a r9 player: I know at least three level 60-70 people who got waaaaay more than a couple of my r9 +7~10 friends. Just sayin'. b:avoid

Zsw - Dreamweaver · December 2012

I also want to add, in my server we get almost no mass PvP. NW is one of the rare chance that I can engage in mass pvp with friends and truly see how well we work together. Doesn't make much sense to go in squad-less. No coordination, no organization, and no fun. Might as well just go 1 v 1 in West archo.

I will still refer to my first post:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18259171&postcount=7

Being in an op squad does not mean victory. Instead, it means I can still feel accomplished and have a sense of enjoyment even if I loose.

And I feel that is what everyone should try to do. Squad with your friends for the fun of it, as opposed to doing it just for the money.

silentalgos · December 2012

Fonyan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just a tiny remark to the poster saying it would make no sense if a lvl 60 got more tokens than a r9 player: I know at least three level 60-70 people who got waaaaay more than a couple of my r9 +7~10 friends. Just sayin'. b:avoid

But that is awesome! Stop QQing people. Learn your class, start coordinating and try your best!
P.S. More than that i've heard that people in squads get less tokens than soloing - so they pay the price for being in squad.

prayin4u12 · December 2012

Squads should not be allowed in NW's. Even when i entered with my squad we always split up and rarely stay together. Also almost every war I entered it was a 20 v 3 battle and we lost every time because those 3 people were full rank 9 3rd cast +12 josd. We had several r9's but we could not put a scratch on them. Don't get me wrong thats pretty clever on there part, send 3 people from your squad into different battles cuz you know your gonna win.
But anyways..SQUADS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED!!b:angry

Verolina - Harshlands · December 2012

Temprus - Archosaur wrote: »

I think it's time to address an issue: NW is not balanced. If you make a team full of r9 third cast players, and only, you will carry your nation to victory, no? So why would PWI be idiotic and make it so that only the rich get richer once again. Most fights, there's so many r9s against you, that you get up and literally just fall over again.

PWE, you need to do a patch to fix this.

I'm opening this thread to add suggestions/comments to the idea.

My own suggestions are:

No parties allowed, only solo PvP (as it should be)
Base the nations off of gear/refines
Make spawnkilling impossible (Buff that allows you to oneshot on the spawnpoint, longer invulnerability, etc.)

I agree with all points but one: Base nations off gear/refines.

ARE YOU FREAKING DUMB

Just make NW entry completely random with no squadding ability. This will make sure that the system is fair and nobody can create rigged teams.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Verolina - Harshlands wrote: »

Just make NW entry completely random with no squadding ability. This will make sure that the system is fair and nobody can create rigged teams.

While this might be true, you would probably see others squad strictly with other r9/G16 nirv players, kicking out the rest once in there.

or!

Complaints will shift further in the whole "this event is only for r9 users and it's not fair." debate.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

While this might be true, you would probably see others squad strictly with other r9/G16 nirv players, kicking out the rest once in there.

or!

Complaints will shift further in the whole "this event is only for r9 users and it's not fair." debate.

And really this is the same level of complaints that used to be commonplace with TW.

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · December 2012

The main complaint I have is that the spawn point does not give enough proection. The small amount of immunity is not enough to fill full of life if you are not charmed. Consider how many seconds it takes in pots to fill 12.5 k life and the cool down on hp food. Spawn points should spawn you full of liferegardless of charm or not or have some sort of protection that is a bit longer.

The proof is that often the spawn points are camped and you will get farmed at them. If the current model was working well then this would not be the case, but it is.

Another good alternative is to make only one single spawn point, so that atleast your team cound then put a couple people to protect the newly killed.

Massad - Harshlands · December 2012

Or split the squads in after they go to start the war... no matter what... if you have a squad of 4 people each person goes to its own nation.... Thats not a refined answer I know

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · December 2012

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The main complaint I have is that the spawn point does not give enough proection. The small amount of immunity is not enough to fill full of life if you are not charmed. Consider how many seconds it takes in pots to fill 12.5 k life and the cool down on hp food. Spawn points should spawn you full of liferegardless of charm or not or have some sort of protection that is a bit longer.

The proof is that often the spawn points are camped and you will get farmed at them. If the current model was working well then this would not be the case, but it is.

I think I got killed by campers once... and I have lost count of how many times I killed campers before my immune wears off.

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Good for you, but you are most likely charmed and you do not have average gear

My point was that the less than uber geared and uncharmed people need a safe spawn point..Maybe we should have two spawn points...one for people like you, and one for uncharmed and under+6 average refines that is a protected spawn.

Boartracker - Raging Tide · December 2012

I think being respawned with full HP & mana would help the situation.

b:bye

Verolina - Harshlands · December 2012

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

While this might be true, you would probably see others squad strictly with other r9/G16 nirv players, kicking out the rest once in there.

or!

Complaints will shift further in the whole "this event is only for r9 users and it's not fair." debate.

I agree that the debate will shift further in that direction, however in response to the first part of your reply, I just want to point out that once inside squadding is completely irrelevant. It is merely the squadding at entry putting all members into the same nation that is the issue. Once inside the instance, teams cannot be manipulated as far as I can tell.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · December 2012

Verolina - Harshlands wrote: »

I agree that the debate will shift further in that direction, however in response to the first part of your reply, I just want to point out that once inside squadding is completely irrelevant. It is merely the squadding at entry putting all members into the same nation that is the issue. Once inside the instance, teams cannot be manipulated as far as I can tell.

Sad but true. As long as we have a 20 player limit and alt users we'll always have "instance full" message for 50% or more of your squad all attempting to go into the same land.

thegerbsters · April 2013

In my opinion I understand all the points being made on balance and on allowing squads.

That being said everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that this is a war. Even in real life wars are hardly ever balanced. Squads are always used to start and yes they can get separated but if they work well together they can usually get back in on the same territory after a couple of battles. The fact we are running into all of this in Nation Wars tells me they are giving us as close to a real live war feeling as they can in a virtual world and feel they have done a good job. Granted I just got my r9 3rd cast and am doing better I still frequently get one shotted by every class out their. Tonight I was in light with my brother who is also r9 third cast and for the first hour we both got killed so many times it felt like we were back to wearing our lower level gear and it was mainly being ganked by squads of higher level players with better gear who worked well together. Again just like you have in a real war. Army rangers taking on 1st year recruits are going to wipe the floor with them everytime until they learn to work together and can devide and conquer them.

Granted I don't like dying anymore then the next person and this just gets me fired up to do research and try to find playing my toon better and to come up with strategies we can use to defeat these uber sqads. So if you don't like sqads your being very unrealistic on how wars really are run. As for Teamwork its a must and squads are an integral part of this. If your tired of loosing make friends and build up a sqad and start working together to get to know how you each play and come to know what each expects and soon you will realize you can take on a squad seasoned players and stand half a chance.

Like I said use it to feul your desire to learn your toon, make friends and learn to use teamwork for nationwars and your on your way. I have a long way to go on learning the teamwork being a sin since our class usually don't realy on a lot of teamwork for alo of what we do but I am learning it, Warsong is helping a lot in that area but I am going to need to learn a lot more for Nation Wars.

SweetieBot - Lothranis · April 2013

thegerbsters wrote: »

In my opinion I understand all the points being made on balance and on allowing squads.

That being said everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that this is a war. Even in real life wars are hardly ever balanced. Squads are always used to start and yes they can get separated but if they work well together they can usually get back in on the same territory after a couple of battles. The fact we are running into all of this in Nation Wars tells me they are giving us as close to a real live war feeling as they can in a virtual world and feel they have done a good job. Granted I just got my r9 3rd cast and am doing better I still frequently get one shotted by every class out their. Tonight I was in light with my brother who is also r9 third cast and for the first hour we both got killed so many times it felt like we were back to wearing our lower level gear and it was mainly being ganked by squads of higher level players with better gear who worked well together. Again just like you have in a real war. Army rangers taking on 1st year recruits are going to wipe the floor with them everytime until they learn to work together and can devide and conquer them.

Granted I don't like dying anymore then the next person and this just gets me fired up to do research and try to find playing my toon better and to come up with strategies we can use to defeat these uber sqads. So if you don't like sqads your being very unrealistic on how wars really are run. As for Teamwork its a must and squads are an integral part of this. If your tired of loosing make friends and build up a sqad and start working together to get to know how you each play and come to know what each expects and soon you will realize you can take on a squad seasoned players and stand half a chance.

Like I said use it to feul your desire to learn your toon, make friends and learn to use teamwork for nationwars and your on your way. I have a long way to go on learning the teamwork being a sin since our class usually don't realy on a lot of teamwork for alo of what we do but I am learning it, Warsong is helping a lot in that area but I am going to need to learn a lot more for Nation Wars.

NECROOO!!!!!!!

thegerbsters replied to a message that was 4 months 10 days 10 hours 40 minutes old.

VKnightV - Lost City · April 2013

thegerbsters wrote: »

In my opinion I understand all the points being made on balance and on allowing squads.

That being said everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that this is a war. Even in real life wars are hardly ever balanced. Squads are always used to start and yes they can get separated but if they work well together they can usually get back in on the same territory after a couple of battles. The fact we are running into all of this in Nation Wars tells me they are giving us as close to a real live war feeling as they can in a virtual world and feel they have done a good job. Granted I just got my r9 3rd cast and am doing better I still frequently get one shotted by every class out their. Tonight I was in light with my brother who is also r9 third cast and for the first hour we both got killed so many times it felt like we were back to wearing our lower level gear and it was mainly being ganked by squads of higher level players with better gear who worked well together. Again just like you have in a real war. Army rangers taking on 1st year recruits are going to wipe the floor with them everytime until they learn to work together and can devide and conquer them.

Granted I don't like dying anymore then the next person and this just gets me fired up to do research and try to find playing my toon better and to come up with strategies we can use to defeat these uber sqads. So if you don't like sqads your being very unrealistic on how wars really are run. As for Teamwork its a must and squads are an integral part of this. If your tired of loosing make friends and build up a sqad and start working together to get to know how you each play and come to know what each expects and soon you will realize you can take on a squad seasoned players and stand half a chance.

Like I said use it to feul your desire to learn your toon, make friends and learn to use teamwork for nationwars and your on your way. I have a long way to go on learning the teamwork being a sin since our class usually don't realy on a lot of teamwork for alo of what we do but I am learning it, Warsong is helping a lot in that area but I am going to need to learn a lot more for Nation Wars.

this is not TW this is sopused to be balanced and i dont see any balance when all the most op player band together in same party to fight the less geared players.

you say this is war

tell me does war mean you go kill ur enemy with ur friends..... NO

you get ur order and do ur duty nothing more you also dont have a choice who is on ur side either.

ur just a soldier nothing more you dont decide tactics and if you do you only do it once the war started.

wish mean no party before entering nw and once you enter u may party with ppl in ur side......... sound realistic

Nation Wars: Balanced?

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