Nation Wars: Balanced?
Temprus - Archosaur
Posts: 35 Arc User
I think it's time to address an issue: NW is not balanced. If you make a team full of r9 third cast players, and only, you will carry your nation to victory, no? So why would PWI be idiotic and make it so that only the rich get richer once again. Most fights, there's so many r9s against you, that you get up and literally just fall over again.
PWE, you need to do a patch to fix this.
I'm opening this thread to add suggestions/comments to the idea.
My own suggestions are:
No parties allowed, only solo PvP (as it should be)
Base the nations off of gear/refines
Make spawnkilling impossible (Buff that allows you to oneshot on the spawnpoint, longer invulnerability, etc.)
PWE, you need to do a patch to fix this.
I'm opening this thread to add suggestions/comments to the idea.
My own suggestions are:
No parties allowed, only solo PvP (as it should be)
Base the nations off of gear/refines
Make spawnkilling impossible (Buff that allows you to oneshot on the spawnpoint, longer invulnerability, etc.)
Sometimes you just have to live on the fly and hope you don't crash! b:pleased
Post edited by Temprus - Archosaur on
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Comments
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They will not do that because it is too hard to catagorize people into a nation for there gear. And that system would have to catagorize about 600 people.. Good luck with thatTaco_Limey: Harshlands 102 Rank 9 Seeker0
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Taco_Limey - Harshlands wrote: »They will not do that because it is too hard to catagorize people into a nation for there gear. And that system would have to catagorize about 600 people.. Good luck with that
Off topic here but... only 600 on HT server do NW? You guys are lucky since that means more tokens per person b:cry there's at least over 1200 on DW every time b:cryb:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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It would be easy to change the quest script so that you could not start it in a party.Sometimes you just have to live on the fly and hope you don't crash! b:pleased0
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Its almost too bad that {PWe} Just didn't emulate the rules that (Major League sports Teams abide by) where instead of having a salary cap for the NW teams, they accrued a set ceiling for the maximum allowed combined number of points based off of the combined total numbers of the squads 'Player Levels' (Say for instance they used an average squad spread of 8 70th levs or =560 level points= 'for an average/limiter' for any combined squads)
So basically you could have any squad combination under the sun for fun, on any single squad so long as they didn't exceed that allowed number) that way squads couldn't get Absolutely overpowered, too such an extreme that they obviously lockdown the lions share of the token splits, and take it away from everyone else who also shoulda got fair token rites.....b:thanks
((The 560 combined point (cap limiter) would still allow squads of up too 5 105th levs too squad together if they wanted, but that sorta squad would still only be (5/8s or (62.5%)) the actual token hog that a full 8 man squad of 105th levs would be on the alotted & awarded tokens numbers, so that sort of system would free up around 37.5% of the tokens for those who weren't lucky enough to be able to squad with such heavy squads))....b:victoryb:thanks0 -
^ +1Temprus - Archosaur wrote: »No parties allowed, only solo PvP (as it should be)
I believe how they distribute player on each nation is working quite well as of the moment but it shouldn't allow party to go in as it will definitely create imbalance on a certain nation.
b:victory0 -
If you make a team full of r9 third cast players, and only, you will carry your nation to victory, no?
No, that isn't true. I will refer to tonight's experience.
Half of our squad is full r9, while the other half is full G16. We did not loose a single battle. Along side us was another squad with several more full r9s, including a full r9 second cast full +12 and almost full josd, and r9 third cast psychic. They easily won battles 10 v 20.
In the end, it turns out that our nation scored last.
Unfortunately, two squads alone cannot make up for the entire nation.Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer
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Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »No, that isn't true. I will refer to tonight's experience.
Half of our squad is full r9, while the other half is full G16. We did not loose a single battle. Along side us was another squad with several more full r9s, including a full r9 second cast full +12 and almost full josd, and r9 third cast psychic. They easily won battles 10 v 20.
In the end, it turns out that our nation scored last.
Unfortunately, two squads alone cannot make up for the entire nation.
Yupp exactly this (same nation as Zsw today), even if some squads are doing well you could be losing many lands in another area. And if you get stuck in base r9rr doesn't help if you cant enter a fight and you just watch a 20v20 def go on for 25 mins.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
**** Laws of Physics I'm going to shoot crystals from my hands and summon meteors from the air.... Laws of Psychics0 -
Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »No, that isn't true. I will refer to tonight's experience.
Half of our squad is full r9, while the other half is full G16. We did not loose a single battle. Along side us was another squad with several more full r9s, including a full r9 second cast full +12 and almost full josd, and r9 third cast psychic. They easily won battles 10 v 20.
In the end, it turns out that our nation scored last.
Unfortunately, two squads alone cannot make up for the entire nation.
you don't consider me as part of your squad? b:cry but yes we did win every single battle easily in around 7min per map with a 100% win rate but still ended up losing the war by nearly 100 points lower than first place. On a side note NW does take refines into consideration (indrectly), soulforce is used to balance things according to what I've read on PWCN. Would be nice if someone can confirm this as my chinese is not as good as it once was0 -
Our faction is mostly non r9's. The first week we had over two full squads trying it out. Now, barely 5 are willing to go. That pretty much tells you all you need to know about how unbalanced this is.
But let's face facts here. Those who worked to get their gear deserve the lion's share of the rewards. This game has shown nothing but lip service to those who are not either willing to pay their dues or actually pay them cash! To expect anything less than that is just silly in a F2P game.
For those tired with getting run over, just sit on the sidelines and wait for the r9's to finish their upgrades. Even now, as they farm for their gear, prices are dropping every week. In a couple of more month's raps and canny's will be near worthless. Then you can farm mobs for dq's, sell them for coins and in a hours time, probably afford to buy 10 raps or 50 canny's.
Just be patient. There has never been anything about the pvp experience in this game that's balanced. It just can't be that way. It's unfair to those who either paid their way or used other means to get to R9. The only advice I can say is go in and try your best. With any luck you can farm a piece of nirvy t2 in a month or so.0 -
I was referring to the battles. Yes, in the end, it comes down to strategy, but allowing the people who have overpowered gear to be automatically in the same nation is highly unfair.Sometimes you just have to live on the fly and hope you don't crash! b:pleased0
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DTK - Dreamweaver wrote: »you don't consider me as part of your squad? b:cry but yes we did win every single battle easily in around 7min per map with a 100% win rate but still ended up losing the war by nearly 100 points lower than first place. On a side note NW does take refines into consideration (indrectly), soulforce is used to balance things according to what I've read on PWCN. Would be nice if someone can confirm this as my chinese is not as good as it once was
So, would it make sense to enter with crappy NPC gear if you are trying to get into a good nation?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
**** Laws of Physics I'm going to shoot crystals from my hands and summon meteors from the air.... Laws of Psychics0 -
+12 r9 doesnt mean **** if you can't catch the flag. I know lots of well geared r9 players that get last place often.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »+12 r9 doesnt mean **** if you can't catch the flag. I know lots of well geared r9 players that get last place often.
Yupp and in some cases I can see having r9rr more of a problem cause they are focused on staying at the middle killing rather then protecting flag carriers or getting the flag. Not saying this is the case for everyone that is well geared but I still see it a great deal.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
**** Laws of Physics I'm going to shoot crystals from my hands and summon meteors from the air.... Laws of Psychics0 -
I would like to add this to the argument. Squads also create an unbalance by allowing some nations to have more people than others. I took this screenshot of the amount of people each Nation had:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/nwpeople.png/
As you can see the Nation with the most people (almost 20 more than the Nation with the lowest) won the battle. Which isn't at all surprising. For this to be truly balanced, we can not allow squads.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Star_Prism - Archosaur wrote: »I would like to add this to the argument. Squads also create an unbalance by allowing some nations to have more people than others. I took this screenshot of the amount of people each Nation had:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/nwpeople.png/
As you can see the Nation with the most people (almost 20 more than the Nation with the lowest) won the battle. Which isn't at all surprising. For this to be truly balanced, we can not allow squads.
how about no squads and no names too. All it will say is the nation you belong to. People in their own factions will even have a tough time identifying themselves!b:victory0 -
It does not matter much if people are R9 or not. People on the battle field don't co-operate and don't know how to pk. The r9's everyone is bashing on, is most likely the same people who have been doing tw for the past 2~3 years.
I am beginning to see that i can not kill r9 3rd cast gear people at all, but r9 is not an issue with team work. People forget NW is a mass pk fest with objectives.
There was on battle, we had 11 people, the clerics were healing, venos purging, bm did hf, wizzy, psy, archer did dd. We won against 20 people that had plenty of r9's. It worked for us, because everyone did their job and we killed fast. None of us was in a squad really.0 -
I agree with you, not on whether it is balanced or unbalanced, because I can't say for sure, but on your ideas for improving the NW experience.
Though I like being on teams with my friends, so we don't abuse each other accidentally >>. it would probably be a good idea if squadding during NW was not allowed.
While people may argue that spawn killing is a good tactic, I see it more as a dirty tactic. The last resort of the desperate. I personally try to avoid spawn killing, and if I do target a spawn I wait until people have healed/buffed, or moved out of the spawn point. I admit I have hit people in spawn before, but it's usually a genuine accident on my part and I do feel bad about it >.<
Just like in TW, if you spawn kill, you're not a good pker, you're just lame.
So it would be nice if at least you couldn't hit people -directly- on the spawn point.
As far as I'm aware, NW does try to balance gear, so lets say you had 4 squads of full r9, at least 1 squad should end up on each nation. It's hard to tell because you don't know how many squads there are, and what their makeup is.
Win or lose I have a jolly good time >.> so any improvements can only make it more awesome b:victory0 -
Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »It does not matter much if people are R9 or not. People on the battle field don't co-operate and don't know how to pk. The r9's everyone is bashing on, is most likely the same people who have been doing tw for the past 2~3 years.
I am beginning to see that i can not kill r9 3rd cast gear people at all, but r9 is not an issue with team work. People forget NW is a mass pk fest with objectives.
There was on battle, we had 11 people, the clerics were healing, venos purging, bm did hf, wizzy, psy, archer did dd. We won against 20 people that had plenty of r9's. It worked for us, because everyone did their job and we killed fast. None of us was in a squad really.
Come on now. I have watched up to a dozen people try to take down a cata barb. They stun him, pound on him for a while and then watch him waltz away with the flag when everyone's stuns skills are on cool down.
An opposing archer was knocking us down like bowling pins with one shot. Then basically moon walking with the flag for the win.
I even saw a psy today get attacked by a bm and 2 sins, take all the damage, after the stuns wore off he easily killed them and then one shot two other people. Me and another sin just giggled in squad chat and flew away while the psy ran off with the flag.0 -
NW needs to be more random. If you're stuck in the losing nation, you can never leave. All new additions are automatically ported to the losing nation.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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The squad feature needs to be removed.Sometimes you just have to live on the fly and hope you don't crash! b:pleased0
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I like the idea of only allowing the original squad sizes. Allowing a squad of six terribly op toons is probably bad too, but is alot better than allowing 10 of them into a nation all on a single squad...esp when they are all use to working together as a tw team.
As a side note, it is good for the player base to actually see some of the op toons in action that aren't sins and come to the realization that sins are not so godly anymore- in some ways are very much weaker than other classes.0 -
Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »As a side note, it is good for the player base to actually see some of the op toons in action that aren't sins and come to the realization that sins are not so godly anymore- in some ways are very much weaker than other classes.
Yea, most sins are terrible. They get 1 shot easy and strictly need to rely on stealth, which even then, the higher lvl people can see them if they use an espionage pot. Lots of sins also suicide on bramble too...
They can still win if you stunlock and APS you though, but in AOE-fests, that's rare.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The entering a squad feature should be removed.
When you enter the base, you cannot see anyone else in your base, they are in a stealth state that no one can see through. People imeadietely then separate into different battles. I think you should have to enter NW solo, and the entrance should open 10 minutes earlier (8:10 Server time). Once you enter the base, the stealth state should be removed. This will allow you to make a squad with people who got randomly put into your nation, instead of a squad that you made before going inside[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Today im in a 10 man squad and had only 1 r9 rest g12-g13..Assigned to Light Nation which was hard pressed and hammered during first hour..resulting in alot of players stuck at base for mins,...however tides turned ..and we ended up wining. I was directing my squad to help open land for the ones suck at base to be able to move . Fought Down from Flame up to Frost. Idk what was going on with other nations but gear to me only determines the pking part. Its Team work and Brains that get the battles one.To think your OP is Fail, To know your role is OP
Team work is Flawless,
To think your better then the rest is shabby.
Blademaster - Celestial Demon0 -
Nice ideas, Temprus. Fully approved.
The first time I read about Nation Wars I felt it was not bad, PWI finally offering an experience close to what FPS games offer(people roaming around, bashing on each other, all with a flag and leaderboard). Other games have now featured that, but they are more about towers, neutral monsters and minions (if you see what I mean).
Squads are great for instances or timed events (like one involving many different people -not just one squad- to attain and defeat a boss). It is not in PvP as numbers in each team are hugely likely to not be balanced in the end.
Auto-assigning and full identity hiding (except like what others said, for the nation name -but also the lifebar-. Even portraits should be not accessible) should work as well for a better experience.
It's also true that enemy base camping is a bit normal in RTS games, but if it's about the bigger, more powerful squad bullying the small base early on, there is little chance things will get even as time passes by. Oh wait, it will just end in minutes at this rate.
It then would be an express one-sided destruction. It's quite fun when you are on the winning side, but when you join the losing side, it's a rapid ascension to QQ.
PWE should have thought more about it. Great new concept rigged with fatal flaws.
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Can't agree with the view that teams shouldn't be allowed.
You have time to squad up with people you play with and fight back to back - that is what nations wars are about.
Of course, gear matters but it's not the only way to win.
First of all, i don't see anybody loose in participation of those. And agree with me, it will be strange if lvl 60 TT60 will get more tokens than lvl 100+ with r9.
That is a game, if you can't win, at least enjoy.0 -
Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »The entering a squad feature should be removed.
When you enter the base, you cannot see anyone else in your base, they are in a stealth state that no one can see through. People immediately then separate into different battles. I think you should have to enter NW solo, and the entrance should open 10 minutes earlier (8:10 Server time). Once you enter the base, the stealth state should be removed. This will allow you to make a squad with people who got randomly put into your nation, instead of a squad that you made before going inside
I also agree with this merely because the entry level for NW is lv60+.
It's really unfair for 10 r9r3 players to be in the same squad and guaranteed a spot in the same Nation, granted they won't be on the same battle map but just add up how many such pre-planned squads like this are entering into one nation whether they be from different factions once inside you're allies for 2 hrs.
Then the lower levels/ less geared single entries who are willing to take part in the event will be dumped into the other nations only because they have room to get ganked and turned off the Nation Wars and yet again it becomes another thing only OP lv100+ players benefit from.0 -
I am not R9 (base R8 atm with +3 and flaweless hp stones, I started the NW first time as a lvl90 TT) and I do fine and I don't see much of a problem with R9 people. I can take and even kill a R9 cler, psychic, mage, veno or archer. When I see R9 sin or barb I just escape leaving them to people who have nothing more interesting to do and I choose different target (unless the barb is holding flag - but then I stun and immobilise more than dd). If a R9 sin kill me I dont care - just ress myself and take another target (to be honest even lvl 90 skins can kill me if they are smart - stealth,stun, aps + my weak phy def = I am dead). R9 bms and seekers I consider boring - they can kill me and I am able to kill them but the fight with them is kinda boring to me - my Absorb skill barely do any dmg to them and my basic magic attack is too weak to do decent dmg but my healing, stunning, sealing, sleeping and pushing skills make me able to tank them a while - as long as I see them coming and can prepare.
But even if R9 people are problem - it depends of luck where you end up. You might get in the same nation as the R9s
. Also - there is usually more than 1 team of R9 so there might be more than 1 nation with R9 squad. Stop complainging - pray to have luck getting in a nation where R9 are. b:victory
BTW: On my server NW seem pretty balanced. Last time score was 17, 21, 22 and 19 soon after NW start, 98, 99, 99 and 84 points after 1st hour and 240, 220, 221 and 198 or so at the end. The nation that was losing at start became the winner at the end. It all because of strategy - Flame and Light nations tried to baselock us (Dark - losing at start, winning at end) but we realised it and didnt let them to do it (and we almost baselocked Flame after succesfully protecting ourselfes). It had nothing to do with R9. I believe Flame have had more R9s than we. And we won, not them.0 -
Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »The entering a squad feature should be removed.
When you enter the base, you cannot see anyone else in your base, they are in a stealth state that no one can see through. People imeadietely then separate into different battles. I think you should have to enter NW solo, and the entrance should open 10 minutes earlier (8:10 Server time). Once you enter the base, the stealth state should be removed. This will allow you to make a squad with people who got randomly put into your nation, instead of a squad that you made before going inside
I fully support this as well as the OP.
Squadding with friends is fun and all but I also went alone in one of the NW I managed to do and it was still just as fun and enjoyable. Nothing changed really, except that I didn't have a squad to chat with while moving from land to land or waiting in base for a spot in a fight.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
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soooo let me get this straight u dont think there should be squads in a NATION WAR WERE TEAM WORK IS IMPORTANT b:puzzled maybe u have to go in solo an THEN make squads but having to do solo all together is kinda stupid for a team base pvp an the thing about not lettin people in based off gear/refine can be got around easy if i put npc gear on go inside then switch to r9 b:bye0
![http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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