Future of the BM...

Smart BMs were axe/claw builds 2 years before Nirvana was released.

I also still find plenty of situations where I either use claws for a fast kill or need chi built up for other things. Doubt people will go back to a bad build like axe-only and limit themselves when vit is so easily replaced by decent refines.

I will stay at basic 4 APS.

I'm still staying with axe/fist build, although I do use pole/sword skills too since some of them are really nice like Farstrike and Spirit Chaser on people who try to run. My axes aren't nearly strong enough yet to match the damage of my fists though cause well... too poor b:laugh but in the future it'd be nice to have refined axes and being able to deal decent damage in one hit instead of relying on damage over time to compensate for it.

Argenesis - Raging Tide wrote: »

This is pretty much what I did. I find axe to fit my style way more from the start, having been a former APS BM...

evade% = ( target evasion - 1 ) / ( ( 2 * attacker accuracy ) + ( target evasion - 1 ) )

hit% = 1 - evade%

550 Dex / 5000 Evasion
500 Dex / 4500 Evasion
450 Dex / 4000 Evasion
350 Dex / 3000 Evasion
200 Dex / 2000 Evasion

BMs seem to have about 2k-2.3k Evasion (~1700 at 141 dex). Barbs about 500-1000. Casters about 500 or less.

http://tinypic.com/r/1zz51rb/6

You're looking at about missing most sins and archers by 9% more. BMs by about 7%. Everyone else about 2% tho (no biggie).

You're also talkin about the loss of 3% crit which will affect your overall ability to charm jump and kill people quicker. Depending on your strength level you're looking at about 8-10% overall more damage if you stuck it in strength. In Vit, 900 more base hp, 1260 more buffed with 5% neck. If you stuck it in Mag...

So really you're looking at hitting Id say about on average, 7% less times. With 3% less crit. Is 1260 hp or 8% (at worst I believe, Im still learning the damage calc) more damage worth it?

Two things I wish I had more of: Crit and Accuracy. I do plenty of damage, have enough HP tbh. But not enough crit and accuracy for my tastes. NW or TW.


I've still had to fist down a few unbrambled/SoVed Barbs in NW, and fists are kinda nice for Warsong and a few other PvE instances. Not to mention makin money the decent way (Plvls, WGTM).

Argenesis - Raging Tide wrote: »

This is pretty much what I did. I find axe to fit my style way more from the start, having been a former APS BM...

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

evade% = ( target evasion - 1 ) / ( ( 2 * attacker accuracy ) + ( target evasion - 1 ) )

hit% = 1 - evade%

550 Dex / 5000 Evasion
500 Dex / 4500 Evasion
450 Dex / 4000 Evasion
350 Dex / 3000 Evasion
200 Dex / 2000 Evasion

BMs seem to have about 2k-2.3k Evasion (~1700 at 141 dex). Barbs about 500-1000. Casters about 500 or less.

http://tinypic.com/r/1zz51rb/6

You're looking at about missing most sins and archers by 9% more. BMs by about 7%. Everyone else about 2% tho (no biggie).

You're also talkin about the loss of 3% crit which will affect your overall ability to charm jump and kill people quicker. Depending on your strength level you're looking at about 8-10% overall more damage if you stuck it in strength. In Vit, 900 more base hp, 1260 more buffed with 5% neck. If you stuck it in Mag...

So really you're looking at hitting Id say about on average, 7% less times. With 3% less crit. Is 1260 hp or 8% (at worst I believe, Im still learning the damage calc) more damage worth it?

Two things I wish I had more of: Crit and Accuracy. I do plenty of damage, have enough HP tbh. But not enough crit and accuracy for my tastes. NW or TW.


I've still had to fist down a few unbrambled/SoVed Barbs in NW, and fists are kinda nice for Warsong and a few other PvE instances. Not to mention makin money the decent way (Plvls, WGTM).

I forgot to change accounts before posting, so you know, Argenesis is me. Also, I've accepted the loss in accuracy and crit due to the reasons Zarkin listed

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide wrote: »

Humm I put my post too short I guess, I should he explained more. I do have 2, 300 accuracy gems in my axes. That along with max level accuracy rune puts me at almost 3500 accuracy so I don't miss that much. Thorw in base buff and it's almost 4k accuracy. But on a side note when I get enough cannies and rapts from Nation Wars to finaly get r9r then r9r2, I will restat to 600 str and 200 dex. Oh and to make up for the crit, sage highland cleave when it porocs (I would say it's pretty good) jumps my crit rate it 46%. In r9r2 with an average roll and 200 dex crit would be 29%. If highland cleave procs thats 54% crit rate. Now this is what I do and it works for me. I like it but I will never tell anyone to do this. Im just sharing what I have done. Oh and with smack never missing and BT being a dot if I miss too much thoes are my go to skills. There will always be someting BMs are short on (accuray, crit, m def) but it's fun to find intersting and diffrent solutions to thoes problems. Eh after reading this I hope no one takes this as me being a jerk, it wasn't my intent.

Same here, though I still need to get the highland book. If you get a spare PM me in game and I can buy it. Not to mention Blade Hurl and Flame Tsunami have 100% accuracy as well, which is nice to have since they are all ranged.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

While I agree the better my axe dd gets, the more I'm using them I don't see myself as ever really needing more vit in my build than 3 (more is always nice, but I've got enough to survive fin) or ever wanting to give up my chi gain.

Two weeks ago I found a stray barb in TW and stunlocked him with my fists until I had 4 sparks, lol. So many of our skills are chi dependent, especially our control skills, that its ridiculous.

Except for Golden Bell, Magic Marrow, Fissure and Highland Cleave the skills I use most in pk and TW are:

Heaven's Flame- 200 chi
Drake Bash- 100 chi
RoTP- 35 chi
Smack- 15 chi
Bolt of Tyresues- 100 ch
Reckless Rush- 50 chi
Reel In- 50 chi
Tiger Leap- 25 chi
Leap Back- 15 chi
Will of Bodhisatva - 100 chi

We are chi mongors. Things are better and worse for sage BMs because you get 50 chi but demon's pull 100 chi off in the same amount of time, and your marrows are much riskier to spam for chi than a demon. In TW you might run in for a stun HF and see 3 chi burns on your char >.< I love my fists in PvP just for grabbing chi.

For PvE I don't know how r9t3 axes dd compared to G16 claws, I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing still well short. Maybe they keep up for 1 spark (15 seconds) but G16 claws can out dd R9 sins now and you can permaspark, making it much easier to solo things, especially things like GBA boss where a spark resist is needed.

And zerks are nice. Crits are nice. Zerk+crits are pure sex, so keeping the dex is beneficial.

I don't see things changing too incredibly much for BMs, honestly.

Leaps now cost 10 chi each, so...there's 25 savable chi if you use both leaps simultaneously.

Also, sage HF (while I would argue demon is better, here's a perk to sage) gives back 75 chi every time after casting, so that's a plus. Though I personally have yet to experience anyone using a chi burn on me to be honest. I guess people here on rt just aren't into wasting time to save their squads ***** <_< And to be honest, not many facitons here are even organized in TW, it's all about over powering because of a lack of interest in working together. The few that do try to work together dominate the map and everyone else wonders why.

All in all, BM is a chi monger, but sage doesn't help it, just makes it...easier, I guess

Having been both demon and sage, I can say demon has its advantages and that sage is not better, just suits a different playstyle, that's all. We don't all play the same style, even if it's similar.

I have some graphs I made for BM and barb accuracy I'll dig up and post later...

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide wrote: »

OK from what I am seeing is that prefrence and play style comes down to server and player base. I have a hard time losing chi in tw because every time I chose a target and take 2 steps to it the ranged DD take it down. There are times when all I can get off is Roar and then Fisure before everyone drops. That has nothing to do with me, it's all the ranged DD doing all the work. There are times when I get to unload on a cata squad but that's few and far between. I have no use for fists simply because there is no need. Now for pve I do miss aps simply just to take the boss down faster. I dont mind axes because I can pull a lot of mobs and just aoe them down. For pve more mobs = more bp heals, so I try and pull as many as I can. For Nation War I'm a huge fan of letting everyone try and fight for the flag, I drop in and roar+mire+blade torando= everyone dead in the pit. I love watching all the barbs invoke and trying to get the f-outa dodge when that happens. Oh and it's really fun to chase people out of the pit in blade tornado too. I laugh so hard when they realize I can jump and move while I'm spinning. It looks funny as hell to. Oh and on Saethos comment, yea most of the people on RT are selfish. They need to learn a lot about squad dinamics and tactics. I don't know how many venos I ran into during NW that only DD and not purge+amped the flag carrier. OH and my favorite is the +2 sins in aps gear that dig the falg, love that.

Your issue with everything dying is more your opponents, not your own personal playstyle or build

Vs Non Chumpy people (esp in TW) Ill dump nearly 6 sparks in 15 seconds on opponents. Having fists to get my Chi up without putting my genie or pots in CD is essential survival wise doing that.

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide wrote: »

One last thing. I wouldn't call everyone we fight chumps, sometimes it's they didn't bring enough people. Other times it's they have pro people but they don't work together so well.

That's....kinda how I define chumps. Dunno I'm an old MTG player, we always talk about chump blockers, and its really just a useless summon there to block/stall an opponents strategy and buy time.

Dunno I did a our 50 vs their 70-80 TW this weekend. The last hour once we cleaned out all the towers was pretty much tele to bind post, rebind, build chi on Bind, hope to god I run across my party for buffs, run up lane, Dive with BT or WillOfBod, murder 5-15 people, CC for a bit, finally die when 10+ people unload on me, repeat.

(I really, really, really wish I recorded the part where SoV went off on 20+ people)

Likewise, the sins/archers/wizards/etc seemed practically useless on this one barb in NW, so I just broke out the APS and put him down. Couldn't do it with axe spam and HF at all.

So really, PvP wise its like pole and sword skills in PvE - not needed, but useful in some small situations. If I ever restatted for pure axe Id still have some stuff around with Int lying around so I could fist something for chi - not sure how I'd handle fisting down Barbs tho.

Although, we should start a thread on how to slow down flag carriers in NW - I think this is gonna soon become a big role for us. I made a few mistakes, but fomg the fail I saw last night was bad (both vs me and vs our opponents).

So far it seems reel in is a winner, and I love it when archers and sins pick up the flag cause they're so easy to kill or run outta antistuns. Barbs are an issue if you can't kill them before charm tick. TBH I lasted a full 60 seconds waiting on a refresh vs about 6 people, I imagine the good barbs can do that all day.

However, it seems 80% of the issue is positioning and cutting them off before they get too close to the water.

I did not see a lot of whirlwinds, oceans edge, reel in...really virtually anything other than Roar and ONE - and I mean ONE Drake Bash. I had one BM who did really well vs me, lots of reel ins, stuns - but no whirlwind or oceans edge which would have massively helped get me stopped/down faster and easier.

I also feel that unless it is a chumpy person who picks up the flag (75% of the time) or they have little to no support, its best to just slow/stop the person till assistance arrives.

Thoughts or should we make another thread?

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Maybe another thread would do some good...

Facing a runner, be it a caster, archer, are flag carrier, I have a combo that does me proud. Obviously open with roar, tiger maw (sage gives chi sometimes), Draw blood, then Ocean's Edge (Sage has a 20% chance to immobilize as well, yay!) and then use Aeolian, if it fails, my target is slowed and/or immobilized anyway. If they have time to open some distance, Reckless Rush, Drake Bash. That usually holds the enemy down for some time. However, I have had many issues completing this because the last few wars, I had an issue with...well, nobody wanted to care in my nation, so I got ganked while everyone else just wanted to 1v1 everyone...Needless to say, that didn't work and Flame Nation lost.

Issue with that is GETTING TO THEM with roar. I had multiple people holy path or something else when a whirlwind would have froze me and slowed me, allowing a Roar or DB to hit easily. Instead they'd run after me fruitlessly, and I'd antistun or leap outta Roar range.

Sage Ocean's Edge I'm a huge fan of, I seriously think they got that switched with Demon and Sage (its more PvP friendly). Again the issue is getting TO the opponent and hitting in melee range. Oceans edge I always consider a follow up to a stun or freeze.

Damage wise, I would like you to consider Drake Ray, Drake Sweep, and Fan of Flames. Just as quick and more damage. Don't get me wrong I use tiger maw and draw blood too (Actually I do Ray, Sweep, Fan, Tiger, Draw, Oceans, Aeolian lately - Im debating moving Oceans closer). I find its a more efficient path, esp with how quick Sweep and Fan is along with the high damage. Ray, close in, hopefully kill em by or before Tiger hits. I kinda wanna move Oceans Edge into the second position so I can keep em in melee range, but its fairly slow.

Now, I'm hating reckless rush unless I'm within its range. Too often Ill hit that max range, it will fire...and then not fire because they are out of range. I find Im chasing them and spamming it and instead wasting time cause of the 1 second delay before it goes off. I've also been slowed/stunned because of that delay. The skill tbh needs a rework for it to be better.

Reason I say reel in is because it does not have those issues, AND removes some of the progress the flag carries has made. At that point we can stun them. For some reason its really difficult to leap/antistun/stun/etc before they get stun off after they reel in, dunno my timing may be off on that. No matter what, most people tend to have a "Wait wtf?" delay after getting hit with that skill (when it works...I'm 1/15 this weekend whereas normally I'm like 19 for 20).

Ofc theres also flame tsunami in the right situations and....we should prolly make another thread.

As promised: http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4562/dphoptimization.png

I don't recall exactly which bm/barb builds I used for this but essentially what I did was take the damage equation (which is a multiplier on weapon damage) and factor in accuracy and crit rate versus various targets. The player targets are approximations of endgame builds, and the two PVE targets are Vanished Ancestor (VA) and Vile Drake Fling (VDF). One other assumption I made was that any increase/loss in dexterity was directly transferred to strength.

The important thing as you see are the trends. Also keep in mind that this is average DPH. Lower dex, higher str might have a higher spike but remember when you use control skills they're more liable to miss against higher-evasion targets and this kind of graph can't account for that. YMMV.

Yes it cost 10 chi the icon dosen't represent the change.

My default was dual swords for BM, pole and fist/claw was the alternate and could have used axes but not level 59 on that toon (because I stopped playing BM because I was too much into farming). Now that I have retired from the game (games in general) due to RL things to take care of. I don't even think I would even be able to try out the ulti's myself, already tried HF on old bm but not the other ones.