?? > g16 vana dagger

FoosYu - Harshlands · November 2012

title says the story for the most part.

i was just wondering i guess maybe from a general dmg standpoint which tier is the one that really starts putting g16 vana daggers to shame. or maybe even just that bit more!

thanks in advanced! b:thanks

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · November 2012

-Tier 2 R9
-Tier 3 R9

And Olbaze can help determine if the Recast Warsoul Daggers would be better than T3 daggers.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · November 2012

The dps difference that G16 beats R9 is pretty significant. Even a bm using G16 claws should out dd an r9 sin. And r9r doesn't get much of a boost, really. 10 attack levels, same refine rate. I believe G16 at +10 out dd's a 4.0 r9 sin by about 20% and if both are +12 then G16 vana out dd's R9 by about 25%. R9r would still be 4.0 (assuming you aren't using 3 pieces of r8) and the 10 attack levels is only about 6% increase.

Lots of variables here, and a 5.0 build will have 25% more dps than a 4.0 build but I'm assuming standard tt99 aps build. Dps wise G16 comes pretty close to third teir r9 daggers. Dph they're completely out classed by r9t3, and r9 has its obvious benefits in pk.

Admittedly, most these numbers are off the top of my head from old calcs and have an error ratio.

WnbTank - Archosaur · November 2012

I wouldnt say the difference is as massive as 20% but there is a major difference. While aggro doesnt tell much, I`ve not seen many R9 sins that would actually hold aggro off my sins G16+10. My sin got vit addons on the daggers and is also citrine/vit stone sharded, thus having worse dps than your average G16 sin. I actually place top3-7 on tiger event weekly, most times when I dont hit top5 I cant find 2nd boss and I get passed by somebody who does/was there in the first place.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · November 2012

While it is a major difference Saku, I think R9r, with it negating the attack level benefit of T3 Vana, stands out slightly on top with its GoF. I know I can't do the numbers right now, but as I said, Olbaze could probably help us with that.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · November 2012

Well, using this as our basis, we get:

G15: 191,117
R9: 213,323 dps
G16 Nirv: 240,624 dps
R9r: 230,829 dps
WSr: 296,867 dps

So the new Warsoul is the top weapon for DPS and consistent DPH right now. Still not gonna compare to the potential DPH from GoF though. For hilarity:
Adversity: 271,014 dps.

So for DPS, it's WSr>R9r3>G16>R9r2>R9

The G15 vs R9 thing is an extremely sensitive thing, as it depends on whether we're talking SS or GoF, +10 or +12, Drakeflames or Garnet Gems, Jones or not, DoTs or not. But generally, if we're talking common G15s (SS, 1x -0.05), R9 is superior, but if we're talking rare rolls (GoF, 1x -0.05) with a bucketload of Attack Levels from armor or Jones, G15 is superior. Or as Saku would put it, R9 is superior at entry level, but at endgame, it's inferior.

The Warsoul is superior in DPS because it has a huge attack level advantage. If you added 54 attack levels from DoTs and Jones, Adversity would be at 364,229 and WSr at 372,484.

In case you're doubting me: Warsoul has at worst 105 attack levels, whereas Adversity has at best 65. With Jones and DoTs, they get 166 and 126 respectively. Scaling the 126 by 1.2 to account for GoF leaves you at 166 and 151, still losing by 10%. Similarly, Warsoul has slightly better base weapon attack than Adversity, whereas Adversity gets slightly better crit. So the DPS of the two is extremely similar if you discount GoF and Attack Levels.

While it is a major difference Saku, I think R9r, with it negating the attack level benefit of T3 Vana, stands out slightly on top with its GoF. I know I can't do the numbers right now, but as I said, Olbaze could probably help us with that.

Not quite. GoF only adds an average of 20%, whereas the attack speed difference adds 25%, so T3 gets a 4% lead from there alone. Add in the higher refine and base attack and it shows.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · November 2012

I'm still wondering if the WSr can really get that other +50 attack levels. If so then I might actually go for that as well as R9r2.

FoosYu - Harshlands · November 2012

http://pwcalc.com/14e76d0d214ab9ad

if it helps, this is my current build/calc.

literally i finally got these g16 +10 daggers just 2 days before NW started so now i'm at that part of my sin's life where...should i move on or should i stay?

it's going to be mainly pve with some pvp at times (red name looks cool at times) and i'm also debating if having a +7 set is good or should i also move on and attempt for maybe +10 orns/armor and some vit stones? i highly doubt i need more than 71 attack levels for dps but hey, prove me wrong if i am wrong

i looked at the comparison between r9 1st and 2nd and yeah, doesn't really seem to show a huge spike compared to 3rd so maybe g16 can still beat r9 2nd?

indecisive-ness and figuring out what to do with gear sucks b:shutup

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · November 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, using this as our basis, we get:

G15: 191,117
R9: 213,323 dps
G16 Nirv: 240,624 dps
R9r: 230,829 dps
WSr: 296,867 dps

So the new Warsoul is the top weapon for DPS and consistent DPH right now. Still not gonna compare to the potential DPH from GoF though. For hilarity:
Adversity: 271,014 dps.

So for DPS, it's WSr>R9r3>G16>R9r2>R9

The G15 vs R9 thing is an extremely sensitive thing, as it depends on whether we're talking SS or GoF, +10 or +12, Drakeflames or Garnet Gems, Jones or not, DoTs or not. But generally, if we're talking common G15s (SS, 1x -0.05), R9 is superior, but if we're talking rare rolls (GoF, 1x -0.05) with a bucketload of Attack Levels from armor or Jones, G15 is superior. Or as Saku would put it, R9 is superior at entry level, but at endgame, it's inferior.

The Warsoul is superior in DPS because it has a huge attack level advantage. If you added 54 attack levels from DoTs and Jones, Adversity would be at 364,229 and WSr at 372,484.

In case you're doubting me: Warsoul has at worst 105 attack levels, whereas Adversity has at best 65. With Jones and DoTs, they get 166 and 126 respectively. Scaling the 126 by 1.2 to account for GoF leaves you at 166 and 151, still losing by 10%. Similarly, Warsoul has slightly better base weapon attack than Adversity, whereas Adversity gets slightly better crit. So the DPS of the two is extremely similar if you discount GoF and Attack Levels.

Not quite. GoF only adds an average of 20%, whereas the attack speed difference adds 25%, so T3 gets a 4% lead from there alone. Add in the higher refine and base attack and it shows.

according to the forges, there is no additional 50 attack level "extra" addon on the warsoul, so unless I see otherwise, I wouldnt assume its there, its probably left there as a remnant because they couldnt figure out how to take the 50 attack levels off the weapon entirely when changing the stats for recasting, or were too lazy to do so.

I dont believe they would put ostensibly free items that much higher than r9s3 items. it looks much more like they improves the stats and gave them a gambling attack level boost between 5 and 15 additional attack levels.

also for the fun of math while 5aps does 25% more damage than the exact same weapon at 4aps, 4aps only does 20% less damage than 5aps with the exact same weapon.

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver · November 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, using this as our basis, we get:

G15: 191,117
R9: 213,323 dps
G16 Nirv: 240,624 dps
R9r: 230,829 dps
WSr: 296,867 dps

Let's say with GoF on the g15s and staying 5aps with x1 int, and I do Nation Wars and PVE farm, what's better for me then? G15 or G16? Would the GoF push over the limit to out DD g16 +40 attack?

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · November 2012

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let's say with GoF on the g15s and staying 5aps with x1 int, and I do Nation Wars and PVE farm, what's better for me then? G15 or G16? Would the GoF push over the limit to out DD g16 +40 attack?

GoF is better for pvp because of the spike damage.
g16 is better for overall DPS

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · November 2012

What Sasha stated. Even with GoF and -int, G15 daggers falls under the lower category for DPS figures versus R9 and G16. G16 stands highest in DPS for farming (with -int), followed by r9, and then G15. That's just those three daggers though.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · November 2012

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let's say with GoF on the g15s and staying 5aps with x1 int, and I do Nation Wars and PVE farm, what's better for me then? G15 or G16? Would the GoF push over the limit to out DD g16 +40 attack?

I'll make it simple: G15 is never better than G16.

G15 will have inferior DPH and DPS most of the time. The only time G15 is going to surpass G16 is with zerkcrits, and that's about 8% of the time. And if we talk about averages, G16 is still going to win out by 5-20%.

according to the forges, there is no additional 50 attack level "extra" addon on the warsoul, so unless I see otherwise, I wouldnt assume its there, its probably left there as a remnant because they couldnt figure out how to take the 50 attack levels off the weapon entirely when changing the stats for recasting, or were too lazy to do so.

Well if the WSr only gets 65 levels, it'll be pretty much equal to R9r.

FoosYu - Harshlands · November 2012

yeah if G15 was ever better than G16, what's the whole point of G16 in the first place?

damn it's been a long time that i had g15 daggers without -interval and 5aps feels gooooooood to me!b:dirty i've almost forgotten why 5aps is that much better than 4aps without zerk :P

this is probably the wrong forum to put it in but...does anyone know if all other weapon skills (purge/double damage/gloom/purify/etc) have the same percentage as GoF/SS have in relation? i think i worded that pretty badly though...b:shutup

Olbaze - Sanctuary · November 2012

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

yeah if G15 was ever better than G16, what's the whole point of G16 in the first place?

damn it's been a long time that i had g15 daggers without -interval and 5aps feels gooooooood to me!b:dirty i've almost forgotten why 5aps is that much better than 4aps without zerk :P

this is probably the wrong forum to put it in but...does anyone know if all other weapon skills (purge/double damage/gloom/purify/etc) have the same percentage as GoF/SS have in relation? i think i worded that pretty badly though...b:shutup

No.

All the effects have different proc rates. Some of them, such as SS/GoF, have been tested thoroughly, while some, like Purge/Spirit Blackhole, have been tested a bit, while others like Berserk/Frenzied Rage, have been left pretty much undocumented.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · November 2012

FoosYu - Harshlands wrote: »

this is probably the wrong forum to put it in but...does anyone know if all other weapon skills (purge/double damage/gloom/purify/etc) have the same percentage as GoF/SS have in relation? i think i worded that pretty badly though...b:shutup

Purge on my tt99 pole will proc every time i hit farstrike on the hex head, one of my range skills as a bm. When i use the pole to actually purge a boss, that pole will refuse to purge. The boss buffs will wear off, and guess what. The boss will have the purge animation. The boss being smart and all, will rebuff himself and the cycle goes again. That is how i see my purge pole b:laugh. If i ever took it seriously i would be like this all the time b:angry.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · November 2012

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Even with GoF and -int, G15 daggers falls under the lower category for DPS figures versus R9 and G16. G16 stands highest in DPS for farming (with -int), followed by r9, and then G15. That's just those three daggers though.

I think you mean G15 falls under r9 for dph, not dps. Many possible different G15 combos can out dps R9, they just need to be 5 aps. SS, GoF, and +20 attack levels with -int and pretty much any damage add will out dps R9 by 1%(SS) - 8% (GoF/Attack level and +max dmg add). The reasons R9 still might be better despite lower dps than a zerk+-int G15 dagger is GoF in PvP, skill dph, aoe zerking, and the +2 range so your melee and skill range is the same and you don't have to move.

R9 will also always out dph G15, even though G15 refines better than R9 and at +12 it will have a higher base damage, it still lacks the +30 attack levels of R9.

Assuming zerk and -int on G15 or G16, it goes: R9, G15 (1-8% better), r9r, G16 (15-25% better), r9t3. Olbaze's calcs show the rough idea of it in post #6 but he left out blessing and any DoTs a sin chose to use, as well as I think 470 dex is kind of a low damage multipler for talking endgame. More attack levels penalizes r9 a bit but helps Nirvana weapons, more dex works better for higher weapon base damages like Nirvana. Not saying an endgame sin wouldn't prefer an O'malleys, have zero DoTs, or only have 470 dex, I'm just saying there's an error ratio there that seems to only favor Nirvana weapons. And he clarifies this in his post, too, and how the more refined Nirvana is the better it is comparatively to r9. Since raps are easier to get nowadays I assume people will have zerk, -int, and a jones blessing though.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · November 2012

Yes, that's what I meant. It's just that I feel that 1% isn't really worth it in the DPS perspective for SS/-int, as GoF/-int/+max attack and Attack levels/-int/+max attack are much rarer rolls to achieve. In exchange for the 1% difference in DPS, R9 gets, as you said, higher spike damage when it comes to skill DPH and AoEing, as well as the perk of +2 range.

I also think preference plays a huge part as well. Some people just can't live without 5APS.

FoosYu - Harshlands · November 2012

now that with all these new changes and what not, maybe i should just use g16 +10 and farm enough for r9 daggers b:chuckle then the rest would be pretty easy to do

Deadalus - Harshlands · February 2013

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, using this as our basis, we get:

G15: 191,117
R9: 213,323 dps
G16 Nirv: 240,624 dps
R9r: 230,829 dps
WSr: 296,867 dps

So the new Warsoul is the top weapon for DPS and consistent DPH right now. Still not gonna compare to the potential DPH from GoF though. For hilarity:
Adversity: 271,014 dps.

So for DPS, it's WSr>R9r3>G16>R9r2>R9

.

What bugs me here is, that Adversity should get the 10~25 attack levels they get, when rolled.

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34788

right? b:surrender

Or did you just simply forgott to add the stat on the daggers, but calculated with them?

Salari - Raging Tide · February 2013

Necrob:chuckle

Yes R9S3 can get those attack levels, the only thing we found out later after this thread was WS does not get the +50 attack levels which i think puts R9S3 at the top dps wise or pretty close

Deadalus - Harshlands · February 2013

Yea, well i just came back to pwi after a one year break and i still had my g15 and i found this thread with the sufu, so i was a bit confused, because all the r9 recast (2?) weapons have ATKL +40 and +20 (10~25 in pw database).

So i wanted to clear that out, because the calculations would be false then

.

So yea, but this was still helpfull, because the g16 out dd my zerk/int g15+10 dags by far b:pleased

opkossy · February 2013

Mhm.

But as said... necro with dated information.

Good on you for wanting to correct it, though.

?? > g16 vana dagger

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