Best sin debuff combo?

Cathulion - Dreamweaver
Cathulion - Dreamweaver Posts: 235 Arc User
edited October 2012 in Assassin
I've been trying out a few lately:

Spark+SS+Enrage

Tangling Mire+Extreme Poison

Spark+SS+Mire

All of this based on 5aps hitting. Seems in the end they all match up regardless in the end, but only separate the % of debuff/casting time in the differences. What's your favorite combos you've found to use to debuff enemies and kill them faster?
Post edited by Cathulion - Dreamweaver on

Comments

  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    spark>powerdash>mire+EP. Sometimes i leave out powerdash if skills in cool down.
  • Ambisagrus - Lost City
    Ambisagrus - Lost City Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Dragons -> Glacial Spike -> Devour -> Amp -> p.def break -> extreme poison -> tangling mire -> Triple spark -> aps
    Going for on sin: pwcalc.com/d916f4e82a02e4dd

    Currently saved: 0

    Total cost: 5 bil

    My time: Lulz.
  • Astraea - Raging Tide
    Astraea - Raging Tide Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ambisagrus - Lost City wrote: »
    Dragons -> Glacial Spike -> Devour -> Amp -> p.def break -> extreme poison -> tangling mire -> Triple spark -> aps

    lol u clearly know ur debuffs
    "Common sense isn't so common anymore." ~ Yusiong - Lost City
    b:surrender
  • Ambisagrus - Lost City
    Ambisagrus - Lost City Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Astraea - Raging Tide wrote: »
    lol u clearly know ur debuffs

    Meh, I know half of those are amps. Don't care much, OP's post was about dmg, I gave best situation for dmg



    If you want debuffs only:


    Glacial Spike
    Myriad Sword Stance
    Myriad Rainbow (Human or Fox form, hoping for p.def or m.def break)
    Devour (Or is this under another name now...haven't played barb in bout a year or more)

    Could use a psychic's channel slow

    But if you also notice in the OP's post he listed EP. That is a amp, not debuff :P
    Going for on sin: pwcalc.com/d916f4e82a02e4dd

    Currently saved: 0

    Total cost: 5 bil

    My time: Lulz.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ambisagrus - Lost City wrote: »
    Meh, I know half of those are amps. Don't care much, OP's post was about dmg, I gave best situation for dmg

    You really didn't, lol.

    Devour, Glacial Spike, and Armor Break are all the same debuff and would overwrite each other. The best situation is really just Armor Break.

    A study of debuffs compliments of Olbaze.

    Depending on the rest of your squad I normally use Triple spark -> Inner Harmony-> Subsea then Frenzy. If I had Mire on my genie I'd add that in.

    If I had another sin in squad one of us would subsea, one of us would PD, and one of us would Tangling Mire, and both would Frenzy. We'd work it out ahead of time.

    When I'm soloing I tend to just EP and Frenzy from my genie and save my Inner Harmony for emergency situations. Comparing EP + Mire vs EP and Frenzy if I had Mire on my genie I'd probably go with Mire over frenzy. Damage increase is roughly the same but their isn't the drawback of nerfed defenses. I often will avoid Frenzy use if I don't have cleric buffs, also. Even when soloing something easier like 3-1.

    Also, with if you have G16 daggers you might just remove frenzy since 20 attack levels when you already have 80+ (40 from G16, 30 from blessing, 10ish from DoTs or neck) Frenzy only offers about 11% inc. Mire will pretty much always be better when you have G16s unless someone else is using mire for you.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Cathulion - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I've been trying out a few lately:

    Spark+SS+Enrage

    Tangling Mire+Extreme Poison

    Spark+SS+Mire

    So let me get this straight, you're asking about SS+Frenzy, Mire + EP and SS + Mire? That's a faulty comparison for two reasons. Firstly, you're not even factoring in Power Dash. Secondly, your second combo doesn't even have a sin skill to it.

    The actual two-skill combinations that you have are:
    SS + Frenzy
    SS + Mire
    PD + Frenzy
    PD + EP
    PD + Mire

    Of course, if we're to include two genie skills, then we have:
    SS + Frenzy + Mire
    PD + Frenzy + Mire
    PD + Frenzy + EP
    PD + EP + Mire

    And of course, if we were to talk about Sages, you would have to include Windshield.

    Two things that you should note:
    Frenzy kinda sucks if you use Jones or lots of DoTs or a G16 dagger
    Mire kinda sucks because of how defense scales

    So the only real comparisons that we got left is PD vs SS. That depends on what you have. If we're talking Demon/Sage skills, then SS is superior regardless of your cultivation. If we're talking level 10 skills, then PD is superior, especially since the difference between EP and level 10 SS is minimal.

    Another point is time: What are you killing and how fast? Because that can change it. For example, if a boss dies in 10 seconds, then any extended duration, such as Demon Subsea, loses effectiveness. Similarly, if the boss dies quickly, we might talk with 1 sin skill and 2 debuffs, but if it takes time, then we're going to want to spread over to at least 2 sparks, which means finding the ideal genie skills for SS and PD.

    Similarly, if you're taking a lot of damage, Frenzy might not be a good option as that might kill you. And heck, Frenzy turns to mush after you get some attack levels.

    And yes, you might wanna try reading the paper that I wrote, which can be found in the topic linked by Sakubatou.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Grats on 4k posts Olbaze :O

    (on your sin xD)
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • DeepSilence - Dreamweaver
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Also, with if you have G16 daggers you might just remove frenzy since 20 attack levels when you already have 80+ (40 from G16, 30 from blessing, 10ish from DoTs or neck) Frenzy only offers about 11% inc. Mire will pretty much always be better when you have G16s unless someone else is using mire for you.

    What you mean to say here? Do you mean to say that if you have over 100 attack levels they become less effective? Can you give more details on this?

    I already have g16 and nirvy helm + blessing give me 75 attack levels so adding enrage give me 95 attack levels. I was planning on going full DoT but maybe it's not worth the investment since I kinda use Frenzy all the time ..
  • DeepSilence - Dreamweaver
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I have demon ss and I always do it like this: demon Subsea Strike + Rising Dragon Strike + triple spark + Inner Harmony + Power Dash + aps attacks.

    I do it like this because most bosses die in one spark - it works really great for solo or duo with a bm (a patient one :p) b:pleased
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    What you mean to say here? Do you mean to say that if you have over 100 attack levels they become less effective? Can you give more details on this?

    Simple. The multiplier to your damage from your attack levels is 1 + (Attack Levels/100). So, with a G16 and a Jones Blessing, you're looking at a minimum of 70 Attack Levels. Adding 20 from Frenzy to that would give you a 1.9/1.7 = 1.1176 = 11.7% more damage. That's kinda **** when Extreme Poison will always give you 20%.
    I already have g16 and nirvy helm + blessing give me 75 attack levels so adding enrage give me 95 attack levels. I was planning on going full DoT but maybe it's not worth the investment since I kinda use Frenzy all the time ..

    The best option would be DoTs and using EP instead of Frenzy.

    Heck, you would be better off swapping Frenzy for EP right now. 7% more DPS right there, free of charge.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Actually Olbaze it's a minimum of 70 attack levels, so with Frenzy 1.9/1.7 = ~1.11765 = ~11.7-11.8% more damage. So it's even worse.


    Get an 80 or 90 dex genie with at least 50 magic and pour the rest into vit. You'll have a 14-15 second EP that you could use, and then you'd be able to PD instead of SS, all while having an amp that lasts your whole spark. You could throw in a Mire as well, but its effectiveness will depend on the mob you're fighting.

    Frenzy is only good in places where EP or Mire don't help, which is in CoA. That's when the 11.7% boost in damage is better than the 0% Mire and EP give while in there since the mobs are immune to amps and have 0 P def to begin with.
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • DeepSilence - Dreamweaver
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Well, I'm using both SS and PD since I have demon SS.

    I also have ep,mire and frenzy on genie.

    By the way why you divide with 1.7 and Olbaze with 1.6? and why do you divide it at all? can you give me the full formula? thanks xD

    And what do you mean by this?
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ..
    Mire kinda sucks because of how defense scales
    ..
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    By the way why you divide with 1.7 and Olbaze with 1.6? and why do you divide it at all? can you give me the full formula? thanks xD

    Attack and Defense Levels. As for the division, it's just dividing two attack level multipliers. The point is that it's a comparison between two setups and the division tells you how they relatively compare.

    The reason I used 1.6 was because I wasn't thinking clearly. The 1.6 just amounted to 60 attack levels, whereas I should have used 1.7 for 70. To put it simply: I forgot that G16 has 40 and not 30 attack levels.
    And what do you mean by this?

    When you have a lot of pdef, losing 35% of it doesn't translate to anywhere close to 35% more damage.

    Heck, due to the way pdef is defined, you'll never get a 35% increase in damage. That would require that the opponent have 0 pdef to start with, and at that point you won't gain additional damage from it.

    For example, Vanished Ancestor has 2140 pdef, giving him a 35% pdef reduction. With Mire, his pdef would drop down to 1,391 and a reduction of 25%. That would give you 15% more damage. If it was 10,000 defense, it'd be going from a 71% reduction to 61%, or 34% more damage.

    However, there's only a small amount of monsters with high pdef. For example, the only noteworthy bosses with more than 5,000 pdef are Linus the Woeful and Brigand Transient. With 5,000 pdef, mire will give you 24% more damage. For example, most of the bosses in Abaddon and Seat have barely over 4,000 pdef.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Cathulion - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    What's your favorite combos you've found to use to debuff enemies and kill them faster?

    I usually go with :
    ~For squads, considering I'm 1 off the 2/3 main DD in squad : PD + relentless courage. This is mainly because there seem to be always others that subsea/ep and mire at start. If boss takes longer, I can use mire or ep when the 1st ran out.
    ~Solo : PD + mire + ep.

    My genie has relentless courage, ep, mire, cloud eruption, earthflame and ad. With 80 dex, 78ish mag and 50ish vit. I'm a sage sin with DoT in armor, so relentless courage suited me better then enrage/frenzy.

    There could be better combo's possible damage wise, but genies are also limited by the choices you have to make in build and skills to make it match my activities.
  • DeepSilence - Dreamweaver
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Does this mean that if you are full DoT so lets say 20 (max up to 24 max if ya got 4 sockets on all gear) plus more extra attack lvls: +35 from blessing and nirvy help plus another 20 from enrage so easily having already 75+ attack lvls (84 actually if max possible sockets so extra 4 DoTs and +2 extra lvls if sky cover and seeker buff, even more attack lvls from rings engraving), does this makes the G16 less powerful since it's extra attack lvls are actually giving less dmg?

    I was wondering if for a full DoT a g15 (even with ss+int) is better then g16?
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Does this mean that if you are full DoT so lets say 20 (max up to 24 max if ya got 4 sockets on all gear) plus more extra attack lvls: +35 from blessing and nirvy help plus another 20 from enrage so easily having already 75+ attack lvls (81 actually if max possible sockets so extra 4 DoTs and +2 extra lvls if sky cover, even more attack lvls from rings engraving), does this makes the G16 less powerful since it's extra attack lvls are actually giving less dmg?

    I was wondering if for a full DoT a g15 (even with ss+int) is better then g16?

    G16 still has the advantage of base, refines, and add-on flexibility. Unless you were pushing about 200 (rough guess I'm too lazy to get precise right now) attack levels without either weapon, G16 would hold the advantage if we based it on the adds alone muchless the base and refine.
  • Cinderball - Raging Tide
    Cinderball - Raging Tide Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Unless you can somehow get over 100 base attack levels with the G15 daggers, G16 will do over 20% more damage from the 40 attack levels. GoF has a 20% proc rate that could match the G16's attack levels but to start with, rolling GoF and -int is far more hassle than rolling a G16 with good adds. There is no way you are gonna make an interval build that can get that many attack levels with G15 daggers though.
    RT's Heavy Armor Sin
    pwcalc.com/4b05df7de8c8337f
  • DeepSilence - Dreamweaver
    DeepSilence - Dreamweaver Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Yeah I see your point and I guess you're right, g16 will probably do more dmg then g15 even if full DoT, especially if you have at least a good add on it beside int (I currently have +130 max attack on my g16). Also getting 100 base attack levels is pretty much impossible.

    I was just asking since I saw someone selling out a g15 with GoF, int and range yesterday and it was really tempting to buy it b:chuckle
  • Cinderball - Raging Tide
    Cinderball - Raging Tide Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Its all a matter of perspective. G15 daggers can zerk so some prefer it for PVP or for spike AOE damage. G16 gives way more survivability and higher DPS against bosses in PVE on the other hand. I know of several sins on my server including myself that stayed G15 for the zerk proc. I also know of others that went G16 for more consistent damage and survivability. It all depends on what you want from your sin.
    RT's Heavy Armor Sin
    pwcalc.com/4b05df7de8c8337f

Categories