About damage...

Suizahn - Sanctuary · October 2012

Hello everyone

I have a question...

WITH NO autoattacks involved, which class would do more damage? (melee classes only) I mean, taking into account cooldowns and the rest...

Would a Sin be the best damage dealer, because of it's "unlimited" chi? or Maybe an archer (first non-caster pure DD)? Also it could be a bm, because of all those weapons and debuffs...

So, Chill of the deep sage Sin, pure dext Archer, or pure str BM? Wich one would hold aggro, let's say?

And now, how far behind a caster class would that damage be?

Vanflyheight - Heavens Tear · October 2012

Suizahn - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hello everyone

I have a question...

WITH NO autoattacks involved, which class would do more damage? (melee classes only) I mean, taking into account cooldowns and the rest...

Would a Sin be the best damage dealer, because of it's "unlimited" chi? or Maybe an archer (first non-caster pure DD)? Also it could be a bm, because of all those weapons and debuffs...

So, Chill of the deep sage Sin, pure dext Archer, or pure str BM? Wich one would hold aggro, let's say?

And now, how far behind a caster class would that damage be?

If your looking for a class that doesn't do auto attacks. then your best bet would be one of the caster classes such as a psy or wizzy but if your looking for a melee type class with high dmg from skills then your option would be is a barb, axe bm or seeker. here's the thing though bout the bm, if you decide on going with a bm it may end up going with fist/claws for chi building which means auto atk. so it appears to me that your options are somewhat limited here.

Archer- mostly auto atk with arrows combined with skills.
Sin- mostly auto atk with very little skills to be added.
BM- auto atk with fist or claws combined with HF, less the player goes with one of the other 3 weapon paths.

Xainou - Sanctuary · October 2012

Probably a barraging archer.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · October 2012

The sin would win since they can permaspark while skill spamming with wolf emblem + chill of the deep + zerk weapon. The idiots who designed sins lacked basic math skills.

asishi · October 2012

I'd say wiz or psychic, and seeker if limited to "phys classes". In the case of seeker, this assumes the use of things like northern sky waltz and heart shatter, but pure skill damage would still exceed sin, bm, and barb for dps.

Salari - Raging Tide · October 2012

Sins do not have unlimited chi, they still have cool downs just like everyone else. They can get 3 sparks quick yes, but it is not unlimited. Archers are not melee they use bows so that leaves them out,

Barb > Seeker|BM > Sin

Casters I would say Psy | Wiz , Cleric | veno | mystic, or similar

oralungo · October 2012

id say archer.. with max range+demon QS.. bow weapon not fist/clawb:laugh
if u want mele.. sins>str barb>BM axe/seeker

XShui - Lost City · October 2012

Im full bm, all paths, way more fun and wep variety.
If u dont have fist path as bm u will be considered as noob anyway.

G_tar_God - Dreamweaver · October 2012

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sins do not have unlimited chi, they still have cool downs just like everyone else. They can get 3 sparks quick yes, but it is not unlimited. Archers are not melee they use bows so that leaves them out,

Sounds like a sin talkin b:avoid

And when Asterlle says unlimited, they mean sins can triple spark to about 3:1 ratio of any other class if we looked specifically through classes just skill spamming xD

But yah, out of the close range classses. Bm's can only hit high with HF/zerk-crit with axes but dont crit as often as needed. Seekers need a triple sparked Gemini slash zerk-crit to really hit high but again dont crit as often. Sins are the ultimate combination with a high crit rate, zerk and attack lvls. They mite not hav the highest number, but they'll hit a slightly lower number 5 times in a row.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2012

This has been posted before.

IIRC, the order went, (Assuming that the classes have similar gear, are pure builds, and are playing the class as it was intended...)
1. Psy
2. Wiz
3. Archer
4. Sin
5. BM

Now Seekers and Mystics weren't out yet when that was done. I would throw a Seeker in front of either the Sin or the BM. The difference in DPS between the top three was an extremely close margin.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · October 2012

To me there is only one class that has the highest skill damage, if timed with other debuffs. That is a barb's arma, especially demon with zerk, crit if it happens. Those arma one shot all waves until wave 9. I haven't seen another class one shot waves consistently in the game.

BM damage output is highly axe and refine dependent.

Seeker - no idea, never played one, but they take eons to debuff, and procs to happen to be able to one shot masses.

Sin - maybe, but highly dependent on zerk, crit with their earthen rift and debuffs.

Archers - cheaters b:dirty.

asishi · October 2012

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seeker - no idea, never played one, but they take eons to debuff, and procs to happen to be able to one shot masses.

This is a symptom of idiot seekers generally, or seekers with poorly leveled skills. Sadly, most of the seekers I get to deal with are alts of aps classes and are played -horribly-.

On another note, I was assuming single-target with maxed skills in the earlier commentary. AoE changes the order significantly, and I have no argument that barbs are a force to be reckoned with for aoe dps.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2012

When figuring DPS, we're talking about an average over time, not a one-shot maneuver like Arma.

Say we take X boss. Each class were to solo said boss for a specific amount of time. The DPS would be a figure taken for that class, with only that classes buffs and debuffs for the set amount of time.
You total the damage dealt over that time period, and then divide it my the number of seconds.

Sure, Arma can throw out some pretty huge numbers, but then, so can my cleric when a boss is adequately debuffed and I'm in DD mode. I don't even have OP gear, just R8 +2 or 3 and two saph gems in my weapon. I have yet to hit anything with all possible debuffs, but with just HF and the seeker debuffs I hit in the 140-150k range without critting. Just imagine what that number would be with Sage Amp and a few other debuffs thrown in.

As for the seeker debuffs, I can fully debuff a boss on my seeker in about 10 seconds. Less if I actually remember to use Blade Affinity. He's level 94, has no Sage skills yet, and it only takes 2-3 hits for Soulsever to proc (50% rate at lvl 10.)

Suizahn - Sanctuary · October 2012

Oh, about some of the first posts:

I don't ask this to help me choose which class to play, I am already playing a sage Sin (wep is only barrier thorn+9), but got curious when in the new BH bosses I ended up stealing aggro sometimes [many times] until I decided to control my damage. Sadly, no caster classes on the squads i went with (clerics only).
But, according to what you are saying, it was probably caused because the rest of the squad didn't really know how to play with skills and think aps is everything, so get confused and useless when they can't use it.

I didn't actually mean melee classes (although that's exactly what I said) but physical classes, so Archer is included.

Also, I was talking about 1 target damage, a boss with really high hp, so that cooldowns are also taken into consideration, and not "1-shot" skills. Not burst damage, but consistent/average dps.

So, then, It would probably be Archer, because of High crit, barrage capabilities and high base damage, right? Also, a wider skill variety to choose from (both magical and physical)
Well, after all, Archer used to be as OP as Wizzys when talking about DD, back before Raging tides expansion...

A sin would come after Archer because of spark/chi capabilities, same high crit and, with proper weapon, GoF possibilities. (And, talking about sage sin with sage skills, spark is not so far from permanent even with skills; I mean, not permaspark, but probably sage spark every 30 secs)

A seeker would have really high damage as well, Stances and debuffs work great and it has Vortex which usually does more damage than archers BoA.

Wizzies and Psy's are of course the highest skill dd'ers, because (being caster classes) Skills are the only thing that they can do (while phys classes ALSO have autoattack) and are pure dd's (clerics are not meant to DD so much, venos and mystics have pets)

But, according to what you said before, the damage gap between casters and phys psobably isn't as big as I would have thought.

Thank you all for your responses, they were really useful.

Is everything I wrote correct, or am I missing something?

I'm still not really sure if sins or archers (sage/demon/morai/oht skills included, lvl 100+ weapons)

If r9 builds, would sins win because of GoF?
Nirvana (g16) would probably mean archers win, right?

asishi · October 2012

Suizahn - Sanctuary wrote: »

A seeker would have really high damage as well, Stances and debuffs work great and it has Vortex which usually does more damage than archers BoA.

I'd say you've got the general gist of it, yes. It is worth note that seekers are closer to archers than melee in reality. Even though they use swords and may even aps to proc stances, they're basically a HA tank caster when you get down to it. Also, on a single target you can get better dps out of other skills than vortex, it just takes more attention, effort, and capability. Staying out of vortex does open the option of keeping the target at -20 def level instead of just soulsever's -10 though, which will boost the dps of every other squad member as well.

The rest of what you mentioned seems fairly solid, though I'll admit I'm easily most familiar with seeker and am not as familiar with endgame builds of other classes.

Worth note, you mentioned R9. If we bring that into play, Seeker R9 blade has GoF as well. Bear in mind though, recast nirvana daggers can get GoF as well (G15 only, not G16), and given that add sins could easily move up a position in the non-R9 comparison.

SIDE NOTE:
I realize demon seekers are an extremely different beast, nevertheless demon seekers are very uncommon comparatively and not very relevant to this particular thread due to most endgame demon builds favoring aps enhancements.

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