Things are getting to easy...

XShui - Lost City · October 2012

I remember when Harpy Wraith was an unbeaten challenge and it killed whole guilds.
Nowadays a r9 sin can solo it quick. All inis are done within a few minutes and bosses are down within a few seconds.
Also it was more player skill required to do most inis/bosses.
No more challenge at all...also why newer players leak in skills often.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · October 2012

...what? What's an ini? Besides the files that host character data, I mean. >> Do you mean instances? If so I agree, this game has a major power creep issue. Although, you could always form old school squads. Nothing's stopping you.

XShui - Lost City · October 2012

with ini I mean instance yeah.

truekossy · October 2012

Those problems do tend to occur when players are given the ability to buy their levels and gear with ease. Remove powerleveling and a majority of the unskilled are weeded out before they become a nuisance. Remove the ease of purchasing endgame gear, and you get less big shots who rely solely on their gear against weaker opponents but can't handle someone on their level of gear.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · October 2012

A ton of the top endgame gear is something that comes from the packs. If they weren't in the game, we would see much fewer of them.

And then there's Rank 9, which is outright sold in the boutique.

But then again, packs also give us good potions, easier access to wines and actual access to some skillbooks which were previously impossible to get.

R9, on the other hand, doesn't really bring us anything of interest.

RyoBorn - Sanctuary · October 2012

well we do need to go with our time.
not powerleveling is compleately boring nowadays, becouse there is no one else to do it with, but if we remove powerleveling it will also get boring becouse everyone is used to powerleveling.

my idea?
put a level limit to FCC (like 75-80) so that lower lvls won't enter, and make a new instance where lower players can "powerlevel".
however, make so that it requires gaming skill to do it.

or make older instances like this more usefull, like phoenix valley or Alpha/Beta

well this is all my opinion though, don't bash me too hard b:surrender

Necare - Harshlands · October 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

But then again, packs also give us good potions, easier access to wines and actual access to some skillbooks which were previously impossible to get.

I agree about the potions, but;

Wines are easy to get, people are just lazy and all the skillbooks could be implemented into the game. They could have made a new instance, like new-new, not FB109>Warsong/Nirvana-new, and make the bosses there drop skillbooks, possibly even pots.

XShui - Lost City · October 2012

Necare - Harshlands wrote: »

I agree about the potions, but;

Wines are easy to get, people are just lazy and all the skillbooks could be implemented into the game. They could have made a new instance, like new-new, not FB109>Warsong/Nirvana-new, and make the bosses there drop skillbooks, possibly even pots.

Sounds good but I doupt they gonna do that, now that we have Morai.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · October 2012

Necare - Harshlands wrote: »

Wines are easy to get, people are just lazy and all the skillbooks could be implemented into the game. They could have made a new instance, like new-new, not FB109>Warsong/Nirvana-new, and make the bosses there drop skillbooks, possibly even pots.

That still leaves a ton of stuff from Tokens unattended for.

For example, tokens made Flawlesses, Immaculates and Perfect shards all much, much cheaper than they were before. Similarly, every shard that comes from Packs is now much cheaper than it would be to make it. And some of the shards (Primevals and Savants) wouldn't even be in the game.

Also, Teleacoustics are much cheaper now, Socket Stones are overflowing, Apocalypse Pages are cheap, Wardrobe and Cupboard Stones exist outside of the Boutique and Guardian Scrolls are also much cheaper.

If you were to imagine the game without R9 being sold in the Boutique and without Packs, the difficulty would jump to a hilariously high level. My guess is that stuff like advanced Lunar, advanced Warsong and TT3-x would be outright impossible while stuff like Nirvana, regular Warsong, regular Lunar would take much, much longer.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · October 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you were to imagine the game without R9 being sold in the Boutique and without Packs, the difficulty would jump to a hilariously high level. My guess is that stuff like advanced Lunar, advanced Warsong and TT3-x would be outright impossible while stuff like Nirvana, regular Warsong, regular Lunar would take much, much longer.

I imagine that all the time. I I have fond memories of that time. Being level 90 actually meant something. It was an accomplishment, and those that got there knew what the hell they were doing.

Basically it comes down to this....
Grinding game (like PWI was before RT), makes a really nice player community, but does not make the company much money.
Power level game (like PWI is now), makes the company tons of money and turns the community into a refuse landfill.

We need more bosses that kill the APS'ers like the new bosses in Seat and Abba.
We need limitations put on the weapons so that APS is limited to the classes that were designed for it.
We need to seriously limit the power leveling so that people actually have to spend time doing something other than watching a high-level APS'er do their **** for them till they hit 100+.
Give people a reason to quest and learn their characters, and modify all the bosses/instances to force team play and group mechanics.
Personally, I would even go as far as limiting the level range for all instances in a manner similar to the way Nix valley is. (i.e. FB69 would only allow players level 65-85 to enter.)

Selak - Dreamweaver · October 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I imagine that all the time. I I have fond memories of that time. Being level 90 actually meant something. It was an accomplishment, and those that got there knew what the hell they were doing.

Basically it comes down to this....
Grinding game (like PWI was before RT), makes a really nice player community, but does not make the company much money.
Power level game (like PWI is now), makes the company tons of money and turns the community into a refuse landfill.

We need more bosses that kill the APS'ers like the new bosses in Seat and Abba.
We need limitations put on the weapons so that APS is limited to the classes that were designed for it.
We need to seriously limit the power leveling so that people actually have to spend time doing something other than watching a high-level APS'er do their **** for them till they hit 100+.
Give people a reason to quest and learn their characters, and modify all the bosses/instances to force team play and group mechanics.
Personally, I would even go as far as limiting the level range for all instances in a manner similar to the way Nix valley is. (i.e. FB69 would only allow players level 65-85 to enter.)

I could not have said it better b:victoryb:thanksb:pleased

Nurfed_You - Harshlands · October 2012

I agree w/ most of whats being said.
@Olbaze,
If all we had we're tt99 gears/lunar/gear from lets say, 4 pack sales a year that last 2weeks each. They wouldn't have needed to change 3-x in the first place, you would still be able to pvp w/o a charm on as a barb or bm. gear wouldn't take 6months to get coin for so new players would be welcome. lunar would actually be a fun challenge like it used to be. your OP c$ers would be r8+10, which really only gives you more kill power and not so much defense as r9. The best part about grinding/questing is defending your area, and learning your class while you do it.

You've been grinding for like 2 hours and all of a sudden some guy starts pulling your mobs away. So you go pk him and after a couple minutes of frantic button mashing one of you is dead. Well he's pissed that you attacked him so he calls his guild, you call yours. gtz you now have a zerg effect going on just over a grind spot. this doesnt happen anymore.

How many of you here participated in zhen squads when you were leveling? How many remember fb89 being tough and taking 4-6 9x players to complete? how about when 20x3 was a major pain to actually get done. or when TT took 2 hours to complete, and you actually got a chance to get to know your factionmates and learn your class.

These are just some of the things that made this game great, if pwi could somehow get back to basics it would be great.

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

...
These are just some of the things that made this game great, if pwi could somehow get back to basics it would be great.

This is not possible while we have at least one R9 user, at least one 105 level.

Think about your proposition.

Those who will start game from start will be in big disadvantages in comparison with high level players with top level gear.

But if we will remove FC, this will partially (because exist other methods for fast leveling) remove problem with absent players at level 70-85 areas.

Imagine TW with squad of R8+XX against newbies using TT99.

Necare - Harshlands · October 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

That still leaves a ton of stuff from Tokens unattended for.

For example, tokens made Flawlesses, Immaculates and Perfect shards all much, much cheaper than they were before. Similarly, every shard that comes from Packs is now much cheaper than it would be to make it. And some of the shards (Primevals and Savants) wouldn't even be in the game.

Also, Teleacoustics are much cheaper now, Socket Stones are overflowing, Apocalypse Pages are cheap, Wardrobe and Cupboard Stones exist outside of the Boutique and Guardian Scrolls are also much cheaper.

If you were to imagine the game without R9 being sold in the Boutique and without Packs, the difficulty would jump to a hilariously high level. My guess is that stuff like advanced Lunar, advanced Warsong and TT3-x would be outright impossible while stuff like Nirvana, regular Warsong, regular Lunar would take much, much longer.

Okay, so shards and pots are the only things that have been good about packs. Savants could be made by combining shards.

I remember when teles cost ~10k a piece because you could buy them straight from the boutique at ~5 silver, now they're ~18k, depending on server.
A lot of those items have increased in costs, because of the market prices going up.

What Nurfed_You said, without the horrendously broken gear that everyone and their grandmothers can buy we wouldn't need stuff like advanced Lunar/Nirvana or harder TT3-x.

Those instances were made harder "so 5 APS would have a harder time farming them" while in reality they only made it so you need more 5 APS to get it done.

Edit:

Toliman wrote:

This is not possible while we have at least one R9 user, at least one 105 level.

Think about your proposition.

Those who will start game from start will be in big disadvantages in comparison with high level players with top level gear.

But if we will remove FC, this will partially (because exist other methods for fast leveling) remove problem with absent players at level 70-85 areas.

Imagine TW with squad of R8+XX against newbies using TT99.

All of that was before they introduced packs. No one complained about rank 8+xx because it was so rare, you couldn't buy it and it took several months to farm it. I only heard of 3 people across all servers that had r8 before packs, that number shot through the roof the day packs came.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · October 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

We need more bosses that kill the APS'ers like the new bosses in Seat and Abba.
We need limitations put on the weapons so that APS is limited to the classes that were designed for it.
We need to seriously limit the power leveling so that people actually have to spend time doing something other than watching a high-level APS'er do their **** for them till they hit 100+.
Give people a reason to quest and learn their characters, and modify all the bosses/instances to force team play and group mechanics.
Personally, I would even go as far as limiting the level range for all instances in a manner similar to the way Nix valley is. (i.e. FB69 would only allow players level 65-85 to enter.)

The bosses in Abaddon and Seat are pretty much failures, though. For Abaddon, if you got 2-3 high APS DDs, you can kill it in like 10 seconds. For Seat, most squads seem to have a BM or sin that APSes, then they die and the barb pulls the boss to the start.

As for leveling, I never really like the whole FCC selling thing. Heck, I got a cleric that's currently 74 and I pretty much just soloed BH with my sin, used a few hours of Reflection and grinded with x12. And that was hilariously easy, as I now have pretty much no clue how to actually play a cleric, having only followed my Assassin to the bosses or used an attack macro on mobs.

As for the level ranges, you would need it to be pretty tweaked. Your suggestion of 65-85 for Wraithgate would cause a lot of issues because BH at 80-89 is mostly in Wraithgate, meaning that anyone who's 86-89 would be left without BH. Also, since there's Trophy Mode in Wraithgate, that would push the minimum down to 60. Last but not the least, there's Divine Orders for 91-100 in Wraithgate, which would make it 60-100. Well technically, there's nothing there for someone who's exactly level 90. Rather similarly, the Divine Orders would also make Eden and Brimstone Pit a minimum of 89-105. Add in Weapon Tokens and Eden and Brim are down to 80-105.

And of course, if you go lower, you run into the following ranges:
BH29: 20-49
BH39: 30-59
BH51: 40-69
BH59: 50-79
BH69: 60-100
BH79: 70-100
BH89: 80-105

Basically, the minimum levels are dominated by Weapon Tokens for Tideborn, whereas the maximums are BH, Trophy Mode or Divine Order.

Personally I have nothing against something like restricting FCC to 75+. If you ask me, anyone below that level has absolutely no reason to be there.

Okay, so shards and pots are the only things that have been good about packs. Savants could be made by combining shards.

Nope. Savants and Primevals are the only shards in the game that come mostly out of Packs. The only other sources being Lucidgold and Aurora Agent. And naturally, without packs there's a shortage of Tokens, which means Aurora Agent is out. And Lucidgold? 0.0028% chance to get it. Well Lucidgold does also provide Scroll of Tome, Lunar Glade Insignia: Ornament, Tokens of Best Luck and regular tokens. Similarly, Celestial Tiger provides Diamonds of Dragon, Diamonds of Tiger, Perfect Citrine/Sapphire/Garnet. But only to the 10 winners. There are Perfect/Immaculate/Flawless shards in the lower tier rewards, though.

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2012

Necare - Harshlands wrote: »

...
All of that was before they introduced packs. No one complained about rank 8+xx because it was so rare, you couldn't buy it and it took several months to farm it. I only heard of 3 people across all servers that had r8 before packs, that number shot through the roof the day packs came.

And after an years of their introduction, what you can change ?

VKnightV - Lost City · October 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I imagine that all the time. I I have fond memories of that time. Being level 90 actually meant something. It was an accomplishment, and those that got there knew what the hell they were doing.

Basically it comes down to this....
Grinding game (like PWI was before RT), makes a really nice player community, but does not make the company much money.
Power level game (like PWI is now), makes the company tons of money and turns the community into a refuse landfill.

We need more bosses that kill the APS'ers like the new bosses in Seat and Abba.
We need limitations put on the weapons so that APS is limited to the classes that were designed for it.
We need to seriously limit the power leveling so that people actually have to spend time doing something other than watching a high-level APS'er do their **** for them till they hit 100+.
Give people a reason to quest and learn their characters, and modify all the bosses/instances to force team play and group mechanics.
Personally, I would even go as far as limiting the level range for all instances in a manner similar to the way Nix valley is. (i.e. FB69 would only allow players level 65-85 to enter.)

while ur at making bosses kill apsers why not make skill do enough damage i mean for axe bm spear bm sword bm to compete with apers.

and make magic skill do way more damage to compete with apser i dont care what they say there 5aps costed them but skill should not lose to auto attack.

make aps get chi as the yfit but make skill be a good choice to dd as well so it come down to the players not the gear.

we will always have apsers cos there is legit ppl who like this but it should not be a must be aps or dont keep agro bull ****.

augustfinknottle · October 2012

Necare - Harshlands wrote: »

All of that was before they introduced packs. No one complained about rank 8+xx because it was so rare, you couldn't buy it and it took several months to farm it. I only heard of 3 people across all servers that had r8 before packs, that number shot through the roof the day packs came.

Dreamweaver alone had quite R8 people before any kind of rep sales (Merangelus, undertakerr, chezedude, Dragoonz (who also got his warsoul bow before rank sales) and Magiere are some I can recall out of the blue. All archers but Magiere, who was a cleric). I'm not sure if Nyte and Tibetan, both clerics, had their R8s before sales as well, but I guess so. Not sure about Heartz either, but I'm guessing not, since he used to have his barb as a main back in the days.

There was this thing about nirvana, though: cash players had full nirvana gear, which for the non-cashers was incredibly rare and overpowering. Reason: farming nirvana took forever, people would always go with 6 people squad, resulting in very few crystal rewards. Cashers were the ones who could afford the 600k per uncanny and just about 2 million per rapture.

So, even if the number of R8 people was very scarce, being it actually more expensive than full nirvana gear itself, the number of heavy cashers with full nirvana far surpassed the number of non-cashers with them.

There no reason to fantasize about old times being more balanced. Archers were terribly OP and feared, they made their name back then. Mass PVP is actually more balanced now, especially because the gap between Nirvana and R9 is far inferior to the gap between tt99 and R8/nirvana.

Not to mention that even TT99/lunar were pretty endgamish themselves and not "the usual". Decently geared people went around in top TW factions with TT90 + 5 against those G15 + 10 (+12 was not really affordable back then, and incredibly rare).

So the rank 9 sales took no part in broadening the gap between cashers and non-cashers, as far as I can see.

kawaiijen · October 2012

augustfinknottle wrote: »

There no reason to fantasize about old times being more balanced. Archers were terribly OP and feared, they made their name back then. Mass PVP is actually more balanced now, especially because the gap between Nirvana and R9 is far inferior to the gap between tt99 and R8/nirvana.

I agree with most of that except this particular bit. I think HT had about 6 R8 users before the rep sales. Before jones blessing and all this attack level stuff. We were far from OP. Sure we had range and our 2 CC skills and we could kite all day like a boss, but our damage was pretty piddly. There was a reason so many archer's went demon back then. Our damage was so low they were pretty much forced to have that aps boost from qs just to kill wizards even...I can recall hitting them like... 1ks a shot and them having 5-6k hp buffed it just wasn't enough.

Reliea - Sanctuary · October 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you were to imagine the game without R9 being sold in the Boutique and without Packs, the difficulty would jump to a hilariously high level. My guess is that stuff like advanced Lunar, advanced Warsong and TT3-x would be outright impossible while stuff like Nirvana, regular Warsong, regular Lunar would take much, much longer.

There's nothing wrong with things taking longer.
Considering how many people say "I'm boreeeeeed I'm sooooo boooorrred" they could use a good 2 hour instance to shut them up.

You bored kids? Put on some white npc armor/weapons n go do full warsong *shoveshove*

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear · October 2012

I wouldn't say things are too easy (for people with ''only'' medium/good gear anyway), it's that there is no satisfaction anymore. No gratifying rewards for doing certain things.

It wouldn't even need to be money or equipment as a reward, think about something cosmetic. Like a title for completing Rebirth like 10 times. Instead of the Morai titles (which they could take out anyway) it would say ''The Reborn''. And a bunch more for doing different challenges.

I mean, there should at least be some achievements that money can't buy. Right now we have... uhh... right, none of those.

thumbs · October 2012

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I mean, there should at least be some achievements that money can't buy. Right now we have... uhh... right, none of those.

In Morai there are items you can only get with influence/ prestige. Your Spritiual Cultivation cannot be bought. There are unique rewards for the amount of time you've been playing that can't be bought. It's not easy to buy an S3 Nirvana Mold. Should I go on?

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · October 2012

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

The bosses in Abaddon and Seat are pretty much failures, though. For Abaddon, if you got 2-3 high APS DDs, you can kill it in like 10 seconds. For Seat, most squads seem to have a BM or sin that APSes, then they die and the barb pulls the boss to the start.

As for leveling, I never really like the whole FCC selling thing. Heck, I got a cleric that's currently 74 and I pretty much just soloed BH with my sin, used a few hours of Reflection and grinded with x12. And that was hilariously easy, as I now have pretty much no clue how to actually play a cleric, having only followed my Assassin to the bosses or used an attack macro on mobs.

As for the level ranges, you would need it to be pretty tweaked. Your suggestion of 65-85 for Wraithgate would cause a lot of issues because BH at 80-89 is mostly in Wraithgate, meaning that anyone who's 86-89 would be left without BH. Also, since there's Trophy Mode in Wraithgate, that would push the minimum down to 60. Last but not the least, there's Divine Orders for 91-100 in Wraithgate, which would make it 60-100. Well technically, there's nothing there for someone who's exactly level 90. Rather similarly, the Divine Orders would also make Eden and Brimstone Pit a minimum of 89-105. Add in Weapon Tokens and Eden and Brim are down to 80-105.

And of course, if you go lower, you run into the following ranges:
BH29: 20-49
BH39: 30-59
BH51: 40-69
BH59: 50-79
BH69: 60-100
BH79: 70-100
BH89: 80-105

Basically, the minimum levels are dominated by Weapon Tokens for Tideborn, whereas the maximums are BH, Trophy Mode or Divine Order.

Personally I have nothing against something like restricting FCC to 75+. If you ask me, anyone below that level has absolutely no reason to be there.

Nope. Savants and Primevals are the only shards in the game that come mostly out of Packs. The only other sources being Lucidgold and Aurora Agent. And naturally, without packs there's a shortage of Tokens, which means Aurora Agent is out. And Lucidgold? 0.0028% chance to get it. Well Lucidgold does also provide Scroll of Tome, Lunar Glade Insignia: Ornament, Tokens of Best Luck and regular tokens. Similarly, Celestial Tiger provides Diamonds of Dragon, Diamonds of Tiger, Perfect Citrine/Sapphire/Garnet. But only to the 10 winners. There are Perfect/Immaculate/Flawless shards in the lower tier rewards, though.

You forgot Love Up and Down. Those would be exceedingly few and far between if they didn't drop from packs. As it is, they are rare, but... Well even I have one.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver · October 2012

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wouldn't say things are too easy (for people with ''only'' medium/good gear anyway), it's that there is no satisfaction anymore. No gratifying rewards for doing certain things.

It wouldn't even need to be money or equipment as a reward, think about something cosmetic. Like a title for completing Rebirth like 10 times. Instead of the Morai titles (which they could take out anyway) it would say ''The Reborn''. And a bunch more for doing different challenges.

I mean, there should at least be some achievements that money can't buy. Right now we have... uhh... right, none of those.

I'm all for this.
There's lots to do...people just don't cause its generally not worth it.

I'm currently doing all the card bosses, to be able to summon Hammerfall and kill him. For no reason other than it's there, people rarely do it (or even know what it is) and to say I did. Some kind of titles for doing even things like that, that can take time to do and venture from the beaten bh/FC path would be great.

Have a little check box list of the titles you've earned, to check which you want displayed at any given time. Great idea b:victory

augustfinknottle · October 2012

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

You forgot Love Up and Down. Those would be exceedingly few and far between if they didn't drop from packs. As it is, they are rare, but... Well even I have one.

Love: Up and Down would not be rare. It just wouldn't exist at all. You can't make them, afaik (there is a recipe, but not a forge to make them). So people would walk around with Pan Gu, Creator instead. Those would be waaay rarer than they are these days.

ponyduck · October 2012

thumbs wrote: »

In Morai there are items you can only get with influence/ prestige. Your Spritiual Cultivation cannot be bought. There are unique rewards for the amount of time you've been playing that can't be bought. It's not easy to buy an S3 Nirvana Mold. Should I go on?

Hey, Devs--bookmark the above post. Here are the things you can include in
packs in ur next update.

mm2000 · October 2012

I love how people "want" things to be more challenging when they use the easy methods and very broken gear, yet they don't want the easy mode things to be taken away from them. Children that seeks attention...

kriegerseele · October 2012

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

I imagine that all the time. I I have fond memories of that time. Being level 90 actually meant something. It was an accomplishment, and those that got there knew what the hell they were doing.

Basically it comes down to this....
Grinding game (like PWI was before RT), makes a really nice player community, but does not make the company much money.
Power level game (like PWI is now), makes the company tons of money and turns the community into a refuse landfill.

yep right.
im lvl 81, played oldschool and often now i see ppl who powerleveld there chars and dont know anything.
but start talking to me and explaining me the game...
most sins and thinking they were sooooooooooooooooo OP.
maybe if they know how to play a sin, but the most i meet...are loosing a duel to my bm and i cant hear again how bad they talk after that.

missing the old days to...thats why i loose the fun on this game.
i think this selling and power leveling is, like in other games, the start of the real end.

get the last amount of money from the players...
i mean, game runs good some years and now one selling and game descruction after another...they days to get new ppl here and hold them are forever.

every one who is reading this, had lost a lot of ingame friends the last months.

XShui - Lost City · October 2012

and nowadays TW is mostly crystal rush.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · October 2012

XShui - Lost City wrote: »

and nowadays TW is mostly crystal rush.

That is a strong faction attacking a weak factoin. If the two factions are relatively balanced, not so easy, takes 2~3 hours to complete tw.

Calamdor - Lost City · October 2012

I dont understand why you guys are even wasting your time with this.
GMs will never change anything about the game. They love R9s and they love people who powerlevel, because It gives them money.
The game is going to die soon. I see people quitting the game every week because of R9/CSers.
Ive played PWI for 4 years, and I havent cashoped. My gear is a mixture of HH99/HH90, and an R9 will hit me for about 15k.
If GMs cared about this game as much as they used to back in 2009, they'd do something about this ****ing R9.
You can all continue CSing and wasting your money on this dead game, but remember my words on the day that you leave this game because no one is playing it anymore.
Peace.

Things are getting to easy...

Comments

Categories