cheap farmer possible ?

HrunsPanda - Archosaur
HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
edited October 2012 in Venomancer
Im building a veno, mostly because my main barb is not really needed squads in todays world with aps sins and BP unless you make it aps yourself. So i am thinking my barb will more likely be the character that is for the playing fun and for TW after i got rich and got it into g16 gear.

Until then, the veno seemed to me like a good choise for farming without needing to make huge investments. Hopefully it can solo some TT for me. Hopefully it can get into both caster and mellee nirvana with say investing no more than about 100m on equipment. (R8)

Now for mellee nirvana i know we are needed mostly for amp damage. Do the venos that are going in there usually have a str / dex build to do some mellee damage ? Do they go pure str and leave the magic part pretty much for what it is ? What will squads require from me besides sage/demon amp damage ? Will i be invited for mellee nirvy if i have arcane equipment and a pure magic build ? I do not really feel like **** up my build and doing a half job at both mellee and magic by making a str+mag build.... This far, i have put 200 points in magic and like 10 in str.

What would you advise me to do for the goals that i want ? (some soloing TT if possible, being invited in both caster and mellee nirvana if possible)
Post edited by HrunsPanda - Archosaur on

Comments

  • Cathulion - Dreamweaver
    Cathulion - Dreamweaver Posts: 235 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    "Do they go pure str and leave the magic part pretty much for what it is ?"

    1. Your asking for death by melee'ing nirvana normal bosses. They squish AA's into nothingness due to random aggro. You need LA or HA to have any chance of survival and even then a pure veno build will always out DD fox form.

    "What will squads require from me besides sage/demon amp damage ? Will i be invited for mellee nirvy if i have arcane equipment and a pure magic build ?"

    2. You'll only be valued for sage/demon amplify. Anything else beyond that is useless to us. APS rules normal nirvana 24/7.

    "What would you advise me to do for the goals that i want ?"

    3.Farm TT as a main source of money more and buy a hercules pet, nirvana truly ain't that needy for venos anymore. Just BM's and sins.

    "being invited in both caster and mellee nirvana if possible) "

    4. Can but won't always happen. You'll always be accepted into casters nirvana but normal very rarely.

    I'm not trying to be cold hearted or cruel, I'm talking from the reality of what PWI has become due to BP. Even archers who were once valued for their 5aps base in nirvana are considered useless now due to low damage/no fist/claw mastery. On the upside you'll have a veno that can make a LOT of money from casters nirvana, there's no in between nowadays. Make a sin/bm/barb 5aps for normal nirvana or make a caster for casters nirvana.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    There really isn't a lot of money to be made in TT anymore, due to overfarming by APSers driving mat prices down, and they can farm a lot more a lot faster than any herced veno. You can solo single mode without a herc, but there's even less money to be made there.
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    1. Your asking for death by melee'ing nirvana normal bosses. They squish AA's into nothingness due to random aggro. You need LA or HA to have any chance of survival and even then a pure veno build will always out DD fox form.

    False and false.
    2. You'll only be valued for sage/demon amplify. Anything else beyond that is useless to us.

    Horribly False
    4. Can but won't always happen. You'll always be accepted into casters nirvana but normal very rarely.

    Most other casters are preferred most of the time.

    Cheap farmer? -BM or Mystic
  • Tigress_eye - Sanctuary
    Tigress_eye - Sanctuary Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Venos can benefit both regular and caster vana very well (: There are a lot of useful things you can do:
    -Amplify Damage on the bosses (some in regular vana can't be amped so use Soul Degen instead for those) (some squads will also prefer lvl 11 amp)
    -Purge on the second boss in regular vana and on the second, third, fourth and last boss in caster vana
    -Use lending hand to provide chi for anyone that needs it (usually that will be clerics and BMs)
    -Keep the bosses even more debuffed through venomous (demon), ironwood (if you get demon I suggest keeping a pet with pierce on it), both Myriad Rainbow skills (spam those every chance for a possible mind/armor break), genie skills like Extreme Poison and Tangling Mire (just make sure not to cancel Subsea)
    -Keep an eye on your skill cooldowns and time your skills well (: it will help you
    -Most of the time you will also be asked to help take care of certain mobs the bosses spawn (one of the possible fourth bosses in regular vana, also at third and last boss in caster)
    -Take care of the chests at the last boss in regular vana if the squad is a bit slower
    -Make sure you keep all your regular vana squad members brambled unless there's a cleric with you. In casters feel free to bramble the tanks and heavy DDers, Aoers like Wizzys, Psys, Seekers, even mystics if they'll let you. Even some clerics don't mind bramble, but always ask first unless you run with them a lot and know they won't mind it.

    Your job will be basically to help things go quicker and smoother for the whole squad. If you do your job well and show your stuff, you won't have a problem making it into pretty much any squad b:cute Hope this helps a bit (:

    Also on another note: if you decide to go pure magic build, having at least 5k hp, pretty good gear and refines should help keep you alive and not be one or two shot :3
  • akosireann
    akosireann Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012

    2. You'll only be valued for sage/demon amplify. Anything else beyond that is useless to us. APS rules normal nirvana 24/7.

    "What would you advise me to do for the goals that i want ?"

    3.Farm TT as a main source of money more and buy a hercules pet, nirvana truly ain't that needy for venos anymore. Just BM's and sins.

    .

    2. Actually it would be a lot more useful if you throw in your ironwood, purge and myriad as well. I know a lot of level 11 amp venos not invited again because of not even trying to purge the 2nd boss. Not because the squad ain't OP but it just smacks of laziness.

    3. You'd be surprised how long some +10 squads are wc'ing for a sage amp veno even if they have a bm with a purge pole, demon hf and level 10 GS telling them to go on with the 5 man squad or get another sin/bm or even a level 10/11 devour barb. Idiotic traditions die hard at times, depending at what server you came from.

    @ thumbs you'll be surprised how many times a caster nirv stalled here in RT just to get a sage amp veno even if i have a level 11 demon thicket, and invigorate which can basically eliminate the need for a veno's debuffs. But then traditions die hard and idiotic traditions die harder. The only time they don't want a sage amp veno is when they have a 1 or 2 in squad already
    Go Pure or go Fail

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  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The venomancer, if done right, can be indeed a cheap way to make a decent farmer. Mind you, it will never be like an APS assassin or blademaster but they can still do pretty well considering they can get into both caster and normal nirvana often.

    Gear
    R8 is turning out to be, more or less, standard endgame gear that "everyone has it". It is still not outdated so it's a valid choice for a relatively cheap but decent endgame gear. Venomancer R8 is pretty good, it offers a nice boost in physical defence.

    A little over 5k HP should be enough but I would personally suggest something around 5.5k or higher. Try to get at least 3k physical defence, if not higher. Just refining to +5 should be more or less enough to get you the minimum defence/hp required and that should be very cheap with Tisha/Tienkang stones. If you need suggestions or advice for other gear pieces feel free to ask on the forums.

    TT
    I'll be straightforward; it's not worth it. The only materials that are worth and profitable can be only farmed by (well geared) assassins/blademasters. If you don't even get a hercules the bosses you can farm are even more limited.

    The only things I can think of is if you make gear such as gold TT80 LA or other pieces that are in demand and sell them but I haven't checked the market for those for months because I stopped doing TTs.

    Skills and culti
    Here's a guide I wrote sometime ago I wrote it while having in mind to make a sort of introduction to the skills and roles of the venomancer class for new players. I wrote a description for each major skill so I hope you'll get to understand the basics of the class.

    With that said, I'll be completely honest and say that if you're making your venomancer purely for farming; go sage. Sage amp is in higher demand that demon one and it has higher chances of getting you in a nirvana squad. This also depends on the server though, the demand for demon amp (typically "lvl11 amp" in wc) isn't too rare on Sanctuary but on Archosaur it might be different.

    On the other hand, if you want to enjoy your venomancer, choose whichever culti you really do like.

    You will have to invest in sage/demon amp (obviously) but also other skills like ironwood, myriad rainbow (both skills) and others depending on your cultivation.

    Personal experience: I'm a demon venomancer and I have no problem getting into nirvana (both caster and normal). In fact, more often than not I get asked to do nirvana than go seek for one myself. However, that is because I have friends, associates and acquaintances who simply want me in their runs because I do my job and I've made a name for myself. Not saying I'm the best; I just do my job.

    Point is; I consider most important that you have a faction or a group of friends to do runs with so that you have a guaranteed place in nirvana. World chat squads can be full of idiots so be careful. For starters, you can join wc squads and do your job well; then you'll most likely grab the attention of some and start making some associates. Otherwise you can advertise yourself in wc. The start is the hardest but once you have a stable group, things should be easier.

    Build
    Since, from what I understand, this will be your first time playing a venomancer just go with the AA build. It should be just right for caster and with decent defences you should survive in normal one,too.


    Last bits of advice, there have been a few topics about venomancers and nirvana. I suggest that you do research them and read on them for extra information but I'll try to sum it up as well;

    In caster nirvana do not bother with a pet unless it has good defences to survive (do not spend too much time healing pets) and has a set of elemental bashes (and possibly howl). Otherwise pets can't do much there. You can use a tank pet at the 3rd and last boss to take care of the adds though so you can let the rest focus on the bosses.

    In normal nirvana, again, do not bother with a pet unless you know how to control it. The bosses seal, the pet will run, the boss might go after the pet and interrupt the APSer. They will be quite pissed off should that happen which is understandable. Either don't use a pet or practice to control it. Call it back (follow) if it runs away or set it on follow before it gets sealed (the latter comes with experience and intuition to guess the time the seals will occur).

    Also, in normal nirvana stay right next to the APSer (hence you need defences and hp!) so that the boss won't have to run half room away to reach you and annoy the others.


    Sorry for the wall of text but I hope it was useful b:shocked






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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The venomancer, if done right, can be indeed a cheap way to make a decent farmer. Mind you, it will never be like an APS assassin or blademaster but they can still do pretty well considering they can get into both caster and normal nirvana often.

    There's only a few venos on the server I would take often, and they're not cheap.
    Gear
    R8 is turning out to be, more or less, standard endgame gear that "everyone has it". It is still not outdated so it's a valid choice for a relatively cheap but decent endgame gear. Venomancer R8 is pretty good, it offers a nice boost in physical defence.

    Most players I'm squadded with have multiple toons making acct stashable gear far more valuable, and it's also a lot cheaper to upgrade. The +40atk level on the S3 weapon also benefits Mystic Summons greatly which is considerable if there's a remote possibility of rolling a Mystic (which is a far better farmer / soloist btw).
    A little over 5k HP should be enough but I would personally suggest something around 5.5k or higher. Try to get at least 3k physical defence, if not higher. Just refining to +5 should be more or less enough to get you the minimum defence/hp required and that should be very cheap with Tisha/Tienkang stones. If you need suggestions or advice for other gear pieces feel free to ask on the forums.

    Any smart Nirvana good squad maker is not going to want such a poorly equipped veno just for amp.
    TT
    I'll be straightforward; it's not worth it. The only materials that are worth and profitable can be only farmed by (well geared) assassins/blademasters. If you don't even get a hercules the bosses you can farm are even more limited.

    If you can't farm TT; you shouldn't be farming Nirvana either.
    With that said, I'll be completely honest and say that if you're making your venomancer purely for farming; go sage. Sage amp is in higher demand that demon one and it has higher chances of getting you in a nirvana squad. This also depends on the server though, the demand for demon amp (typically "lvl11 amp" in wc) isn't too rare on Sanctuary but on Archosaur it might be different.

    Another occasion where you have to rely on idiots making the squad. -Do you really want those making your squad?

    and then you post this:
    Personal experience: I'm a demon venomancer and I have no problem getting into nirvana (both caster and normal).

    -Culti choice is a huge choice: Not something you should carelessly recommend then say how the other has been suitable for you.
    Point is; I consider most important that you have a faction or a group of friends to do runs with so that you have a guaranteed place in nirvana. World chat squads can be full of idiots so be careful. For starters, you can join wc squads and do your job well; then you'll most likely grab the attention of some and start making some associates. Otherwise you can advertise yourself in wc. The start is the hardest but once you have a stable group, things should be easier.

    You get more faction/ friends by staying on main and using that to farm.
  • Baby_pho - Heavens Tear
    Baby_pho - Heavens Tear Posts: 636 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    if you really want to make a true "farming" veno 5k of hp is not going to be enough. veno is not cheap at all. the skills/gear. it also depends on where you farm. tbh, veno can make bank if you dual with a sin/bm or both(trio). purge/lending hand/amp/ lvl 79 skills(armorbreak/mind break)/genies/gear... those are the "priority/expensive" skills that I stated ofc there are others.

    if you want to farm tt you should aim for 7-8k hp unbuff. or nv regardless. bc tbh, if you farm with sin/bm and they dont have a cleric in tt/squad (cos nowadays peeps just farm with charm on) and you dont have a charm you will prolly get 1-2 hit with random agro/aoe/ other accidents. tbh, just pick a class that you want to play oppose to a class to farm. it gets real boring if you dont even like to play em.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    As i said, the barb is my char that i play for fun. But appearently they aren't wanted very much. They are obsolete now that the apsers can tank. I could make the barb aps i guess, but its somewhat expensive and i feel like i'd better make a sin/bm if i want aps.

    And about what thumbs is writing about the "smart squad maker" that is exactly what dissapoints me in the attitude of players in this game. If i make a squad for whatever i do and i have doubts if we can manage to beat the instance, yes then i will find characters that have minimum level and equipment. But All the looking for 5APS R9 is so pathethic. Its not so important, maybe the run will take a minute more of your life if some of the players have only R8, first cast nirvana or god forbid maybe even one with TT99 gold.

    The whole thing you describe as smart squadmakers are kids with a ****ed up ego who think they are too good too play with lesser equiped players and have an extremely poor attude towards other players in general. Thats a sad thing :(
    Unfortunately because of those kids playing a character that is fun to play will not get you to the end game equipment so ill have to make a char that gets invited or can solo farm (or in a team of 2 with my real life friend whos also playing this game)

    Fortunately there are exceptions, every now and then you find a very well geared player who actually is friendly has no problem playing with less equiped players and can behave a bit mature. Not suprisingly these usually are also the ones who actually have skills besides just equipment.

    Now dont take me wrong, when these friendly people do TT3-3 with me, i know they are doing me a favour. I know at 94 TT3-3 is not where i belong (although it doesnt matter much if im 94 or 101, i can do the buffing / debuffing and pulling job just as well and tank for at least 20 seconds with invoke in case of emergency) When people leave my squad for TT 2-3 or 3-1 as soon as they see a lvl 90 barb is pretty anoying though. And surely i would like to play these instances with others less wealthy players, and when i find them i do, but those never seem to do TTs. I guess people in this game dont want to play in a way that is the slightest bit challenging, they just want everything to be fast and easy :(
    When i make a TT squad, usually you just get the high aps ones who either leave when they see a lvl 90 or behave like pigs if they dont leave.

    I made this post mostly about nirvana and am now talking about TT. Of course since im 94, my own experience is there. My friend however has a 101 cleric and 100BM but not the wealth to equip them enough to be invited in nirvana, so i know from him and the WC messages what im looking forward to. (BM 2.2/2.68 aps without demon hf, cleric with TT99 mostly)

    As for the veno, i guess i'll just get him to R8 someday and hope it'll get me into caster nirvana a bit. cuz needing nirvana equipment for doing nirvana... well thats kind of a problem isn't it ? :) I can merchant enough money for r8, but getting nirvy is gonna require some nirvy farming as well.
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Veno is cheap as **** to gear: http://www.pwcalc.com/0b6c396077158498

    This is basically what I have on my veno (minus r8 and 4th past belt; I use a FC wand, OHT belt/top, and tt90 pants since I personally don't bring it into caster 'cause I have better chars for that and I'm a cheapass) and it's enough for normal Nirvana/caster Nirvana/TT assuming you have sage Ironwood/Amp/both myriads (and aren't trying to get into a caster squad demanding min r9 +10).

    No one brings a veno for damage (unless it's the aforementioned caster squad that demends r9 +10 for some reason). They just want your debuffs.
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    if you want to farm tt you should aim for 7-8k hp unbuff. or nv regardless. bc tbh, if you farm with sin/bm and they dont have a cleric in tt/squad (cos nowadays peeps just farm with charm on) and you dont have a charm you will prolly get 1-2 hit with random agro/aoe/ other accidents. tbh, just pick a class that you want to play oppose to a class to farm. it gets real boring if you dont even like to play em.

    Charm for PvE is fail or lazy unless it's from Lucid event. Melee have BP and do not need outside healing.

    The game is changing and evolving. Unless someone is going to drop some cash on the game; progress should be slow enough for anyone to figure out how much HP/ def they should have at any time. Of course there's a lot of one hit wonders that have been farming Caster Nirvana for a very long time that just use others.
  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    As i said, the barb is my char that i play for fun. But appearently they aren't wanted very much. They are obsolete now that the apsers can tank. I could make the barb aps i guess, but its somewhat expensive and i feel like i'd better make a sin/bm if i want aps.

    And about what thumbs is writing about the "smart squad maker" that is exactly what dissapoints me in the attitude of players in this game. If i make a squad for whatever i do and i have doubts if we can manage to beat the instance, yes then i will find characters that have minimum level and equipment. But All the looking for 5APS R9 is so pathethic. Its not so important, maybe the run will take a minute more of your life if some of the players have only R8, first cast nirvana or god forbid maybe even one with TT99 gold.

    Just 1 point that I didn't see mentionned : Barbs aren't that unwanted at 100+ anymore. The changes in bh has made barbs wanted in all bh and even a "must have" for some ppl. It is true however, that nirvana is though to get in as a barb. Even aps barbs aren't really wanted since the initial hype is over. But nirvana isn't that great money really. Ppl only run it on 2x now and each 2x leaves the prices lower then before.

    For venos it is imo true that they don't need as much gear investement as other classes. Or better said, the "pro-factor" of a veno is less related to their gear as for any other class. They are considered pro for their amp and purge timing, when to pass sparks, and all the other "support" they can do. That being said, ppl will judge you on gear no matter what class.

    Personally, I wouldn't make a veno with a 100mil budget and expect it to be a great money maker in your case. Depending on the server, venos are fairly wanted for normal nirvana but beyond that it's all about the person playing more then the class. Everyone likes a good veno for pretty much any instance, but the times you see a squad specifically wc for a veno is pretty rare. At the best, you see them wc for sage amp on 2x.

    Btw, you could consider making a HA veno, since you aim for G16 on your barb. The great thing about venos is that they can be fun and played in any armor type. I know many will start about AA being "the best", but veno is still 1 off the most versatile classes in builds.
    The whole thing you describe as smart squadmakers are kids with a ****ed up ego who think they are too good too play with lesser equiped players and have an extremely poor attude towards other players in general. Thats a sad thing :(
    Unfortunately because of those kids playing a character that is fun to play will not get you to the end game equipment so ill have to make a char that gets invited or can solo farm (or in a team of 2 with my real life friend whos also playing this game)

    I agree, it is annoying and reached completely ridiculous proportions b:surrender
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I disagree that aps are taking over. It is simply people thinking that world chat squads are the only ones out there, and if they can't get into those world chat squads, there are no other squads. All the runs i do are with friends, we never world chat. All my faction and friend faction runs are never world chatted. These runs are people in the big tw factions to OP geared people. Vana is a whole lot more fun if you know people and they like you.

    I take any class that has good dd with me, because i would prefer to get the run done and have fun. If the veno can survive aoes, the veno is good in my books. Venos have so much going on, that aps people often neglect. They are skill spamming, pet fiddling, watching buffs, debuffs, making sure to survive random agro. Making sure the bms have chi. When you run with the same people, you learn each others play style. My sins is least chi intesive toon i play. My bm eats chi for snacks. I see a boss, chi gone, boss raises hand all the chi is gone, boss sneezed i triple spark to shield myself.

    Same can be said about barbs. devour = 50% pdef reduction, added to mire, hf, sub sea, amp, that makes us hit hard. I fail to see why people shun other classes, there are awesome things a mix can do. A fast run is the one where you feel excited at each boss and think, wow only a minute passed since we started.

    You don't need lvl 11, demon, sage amp. It helps, nice to have, but not necessary. Just like how demon hf is not necessary. How demon/sage sub sea is not necessary. The key to effective squads is timing. My usual friend squads are barbs, archer, veno, bm, sins. We often have 1~2 sins, 1~2 bm, 1 veno, 0~1 barb, 0~1 archer, the 99 key person. The sins and bm have +10 weapons sure, but sins are often sage 3.33~4 aps base. Bms are 2.86~5 aps. But our timing is spot on, and we kill bosses in one spark. When i go with OP squads with other people, who have better weapon refines, we kill slower because timing is off. People neglect these little things quite a bit.

    Often times people who can not do the hard bosses in 3-2, 3-3, should think of how much easier that run would be with an addition of a barb or veno, or both. I lvled mine simply so i can purge bosses, and my veno is lvl 60 going to tt 3-3 with me.

    Also the people from their own respective classes are to blame as well for not trying to find out things and accepting the current status of APS rule pwi pve. That just means you haven't met the right friends in game yet.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I mostly suggested AA because it's his first time playing venomancer (right?) or at least start out as AA and change to HA after lvl90+ when he can stash gear. He'll still need a decent set of AA though, especially if he considers caster but I don't have as much experience in that area as my HA venomancer never reached lvl100.

    For nirvana alone venomancers can be a cheap farmer, I've seen venomancers with the minimum required gear doing them as long as they had the lvl11 skills. I didn't really mention any other situation since OP asked for nirvana but if you want more than just a debuffer slave farming nirvana, your venomancer will indeed need more investment.

    Regardless, I think having a veno around can benefit you. People do caster even on non 2x because talismen have a timer and caster still has decent drops non 2x that make it worth the time to run it. Having another toon to do bh100 isn't bad, you have higher chances of getting good rewards and another toon to do 99key runs when you collect keys. Plus, nobody said you can't improve your venomancer over time even if you start as a cheapo at first.
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  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    @Jaabg : You are right that you don't need 5 aps +10 to play, don't need lvl11 amp, etc. But everyone is judged on their class, gear and lvl of their skills. The number of "friends" a veno has will be influenced by the lvl of their amp. For any class, r9 +10 should come with a friendlist extension. That's just how 80% off the ppl are ingame these days. As the same person on several lvl100 toons going from average gear with some lvl11 skills till full +10~12 with all skills sage/demon, I notice how ppl change according to the pro-factor of your gear and the popularity-factor of you class. And many of the nice ppl I took to nirvana and TT regardless of their gear and class, are now "5aps +10"-only. It's sad but true. That's not just wc, it's a majority of the population. Even inside factions chats it's common to see asked for specific aps/refine for some instance.
    I mostly suggested AA because it's his first time playing venomancer (right?) or at least start out as AA and change to HA after lvl90+ when he can stash gear. He'll still need a decent set of AA though, especially if he considers caster but I don't have as much experience in that area as my HA venomancer never reached lvl100.

    Idk if AA is easier to play. Depends on the person I guess...
    I just suggested it so he can see the armor as a common investment for 2 toons. With 100mil for 1 toon gear+skills+pet stuff, he's not likely to go that far. HA veno would only limit in caster nirvana I think. Can't say much on the topic, I'm not really into caster nirvana. Pretty much only do it on wiz if mumu drags me in b:laugh Ppl there are way to paranoid at my taste b:surrender HA veno is basically a veno with way more survivability at the cost of about 25% off their attack power on the magic tree (which is the only damage for caster anyway).
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The class that has gotten away with going the cheapest is Barb. -Surprise! - What class was always being brought up as not wanted? There were only a few barbs that would round up mobs in the old BH Aba / SoT, and only a few good DD barbs; so they made themselves less wanted. -Then they complained / continue to whine in the forum about not being wanted.

    Venomancer likewise commonly goes cheap and loses popularity. A dead veno isn't an amping veno. When only half the bosses in Nirvana are amp-able; shouldn't you be expected to DD and stay alive halfway decent?

    While you may be able to occasionally get into a good squad as a fail veno; you'll also be resented by those Assassins who've spent over 10x as much on gear and don't really benefit from you being there.
  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    thumbs wrote: »
    The class that has gotten away with going the cheapest is Barb. -Surprise!

    I would like to know why you say this. Initially, barbs were the class that needed most investement on gear (togather with clerics probably), as they were expected to tank bosses which hit hard back then.
    thumbs wrote: »
    - What class was always being brought up as not wanted? There were only a few barbs that would round up mobs in the old BH Aba / SoT, and only a few good DD barbs; so they made themselves less wanted. -Then they complained / continue to whine in the forum about not being wanted.

    That is a way off seeing things. Another is that pve content never got rescaled to gear progress, which enabled any class with any armor to tank. The point about not gathering is kinda true, if it weren't the squads getting totally adapted to aps/poking mob by mob. At the peak off the aps-mania, squads complained if I went from start to 1st door in a wined Seat. Look at the number off bms that go poking 1 by 1 rather then aoe, and tell me again it's a barb-thing rather then a community movement.
    thumbs wrote: »
    Venomancer likewise commonly goes cheap and loses popularity. A dead veno isn't an amping veno. When only half the bosses in Nirvana are amp-able; shouldn't you be expected to DD and stay alive halfway decent?

    So now a veno is only good to amp ? The reason to take a veno in normal nirvana is because they have a phys def debuff (like clerics/barbs) AND amp AND chance to armor break AND can purge 2nd boss if needed. As veno, nobody ever asks for a weapon link for nirvana.
    thumbs wrote: »
    While you may be able to occasionally get into a good squad as a fail veno; you'll also be resented by those Assassins who've spent over 10x as much on gear and don't really benefit from you being there.

    You're contradicting with the above here, but w/e. Actually, sins and bms are getting away with bad armor more easily then casters. Sins/bms spend much on gear ? Actually, they are the only classes where everyone thinks it's normal to stay at TT99 and refine only weapon. From what I see, barbs, casters and archers usually spend more on gear then sins/bms.

    Want a cheap nirvana/farm toon ? Make a bm and get it to the cheap 5 aps build, just need to get demon HF and you're done.
  • Asassinate - Raging Tide
    Asassinate - Raging Tide Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Well from what I see from my server its sage amp venos only called for Nirvy. Sometimes it can be few repeats(asking for sage venos by same squad) hence from what I gather they wouldn't be really bothered with venos gear, as long as they know what they are doing and can survive.

    May I suggest adding 100 points into vit, that'll be 1200 extra HP and more survivability.
  • Asassinate - Raging Tide
    Asassinate - Raging Tide Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Skills and culti
    Here's a guide I wrote sometime ago I wrote it while having in mind to make a sort of introduction to the skills and roles of the venomancer class for new players. I wrote a description for each major skill so I hope you'll get to understand the basics of the class.

    Thank you great guide for newbie venos helped a lot.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Thanx for all the replies.

    I didnt even realise it but indeed the veno is on the same acc as my barb so surely that would be a good reason to go for HA. I also assume a heavy armor build possibly combined with some parts robe is gonna be great for my survivability in nirvana. So noone ever needs to be bothered by the undergeared noob veno dying and thus not puring anymore :)

    Could a pure mag class have acceptable survivability in fox form to do the purging job in nirvana ?
    Would the pure mag build be popular in caster with an r8 weapon ?

    Is as i suspect a HA combined with some robe the best build for TW ? This is of course more of a long term consideration. When the heavy armor has gotten good enough with refines and shards to provide some HPs.

    I dont see much in putting any points in vit. Either i make a HA build wich is short on points already, or i make a nuke build who must have every point in mag or else is a fail caster. Or is the damage of a 250str-50dex-200mag* build so terrible already that it doesnt really matter not to have the best possible weapon anymore and you might as well leave the weapon and put them in str ? On the same topic, is it worth putting a lot of efford into getting lots of stats from equipment moving those away from str/dex to magic so that i can equip a higher level weapon with the HA ?
  • Tawarwaith - Sanctuary
    Tawarwaith - Sanctuary Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Could a pure mag class have acceptable survivability in fox form to do the purging job in nirvana ?

    Yes, a caster with ok gear (something like TT99/r8 at +4/5 with immacs or better) should have enough survivability to do all the jobs you are expected to do in normal nirvana. Things like buffs, healer or not, fast or slow squad, etc do influence on that ofc. Keep in mind that nirvana is a really really easy instance for lvl100.
    Would the pure mag build be popular in caster with an r8 weapon ?

    Depends on refines and your server. On Sanc wc is really picky on who they pick. I really only do caster on my wiz and only if 1 of my friends litterally drags me in.
    Is as i suspect a HA combined with some robe the best build for TW ? This is of course more of a long term consideration. When the heavy armor has gotten good enough with refines and shards to provide some HPs.

    Imo, the best build for TW is r9 +10 full JOSD, so for a veno that would be AA. It's more a gear lvl question then sort off gear if you ask me.
    I dont see much in putting any points in vit. Either i make a HA build wich is short on points already, or i make a nuke build who must have every point in mag or else is a fail caster. Or is the damage of a 250str-50dex-200mag* build so terrible already that it doesnt really matter not to have the best possible weapon anymore and you might as well leave the weapon and put them in str ? On the same topic, is it worth putting a lot of efford into getting lots of stats from equipment moving those away from str/dex to magic so that i can equip a higher level weapon with the HA ?

    You can pretty easily use an up to date magic weapon with smart use off gear stat bonusses, ring engraving and tome. And yes, it's worth getting up to date magic weapon.


    A general note on HA :
    I think a HA works good on a veno because you have a whole set off physical melee skills and generally speaking the class' role is support with many debuffs. For those who like foxform it works really well, but always keep in mind that you should use skills from both forms in squad. HA will limit you for caster nirvana, that's just a fact. HA will allow you to share a large part of gear on 2 toons, grant way better survivability (which maybe doesn't matter much in nirvana, but it does in other places like 3-x) and just allows another playstyle for the stuff you do solo. I estimate the loss in magical attack power at about 25%, but it's dependant on the skill, the refinement, etc. Keep in mind that magic attack sometimes is very important (caster nirvana), sometimes barely matters (when cycling/timing your debuffs/purge in squad) and sometimes doesn't matter at all (when you can DD in foxform anyway).

    Btw, my veno is wearing HA only, maybe Sakubatou will post something about HA/AA mix. I simply use the armor I have on barb/bm/seeker with a few tweaks like CoA rings for mag+physical attack. Also, my HA is sapphire sharded and equals an average caster's mag def already but with the refine advantage off HA.
  • HrunsPanda - Archosaur
    HrunsPanda - Archosaur Posts: 1,136 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nirvana a really easy instance... I was already having that impression seeing all the ins who take a break from nirvy and do TT. Often without discussing anything with the team, they just jump whatever boss they run into and then decide the boss is too hard when they die. Too bad nirvana is easy :(, it should actually start to get challenging at lvl 100....

    What i meant to ask for the TW thing: Do venos in TW function primarilly as a debuffer, or are they also (or primarily) important as a magic DD. I was thinking maybe since there are others who are more specifically designed to be magic DD, it seems likely to me that venos are better doing the debuffing job and just having survivability. But as said, i have no idea yet about TW, so im asking if that idea is right or not.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Venos do mostly debuff and support in TW. It's only the super well-geared ones that spend any notable time DDing... and even those ones mostly debuff