Is it really that difficult for Archers to get squads ...

Asassinate - Raging Tide wrote: »

Last week I met R9 archer, who spent over 5K+, can solo most of bosses has aps gear too. But he told me he can never get into nirvana.

You know something... if you hang out with fails... eventually you'll be just as fail as they are. There are archers on HT who spend $110 or less that can out damage +10 full r9 clerics in terms of magic and +9/10 5aps sins in terms of physical in nirvana.

Ok, I got this.

Some archers have a lot of problems getting into squads because of the general makeup of my server. There is sort of a lot of archers (probably 3rd behind Sins and BMs) and many people play them horribly. Archer is one of the more popular classes in my faction and sometimes you can't get a squad simply because there are too many archers (can't really do SoT if 7 archers want to go, have to make a 2nd squad, or 3rd etc).

In my experience with randoms, you get archers that don't AoE on BHs like SoT/Aba and Lunar. I see a lot of clerics that only squad classes capable of getting BP so they don't have to do a lot of work. I have seen archers that only Demon Spark+aps the entire instance and won't use a bow when we AoE mobs. A lot of archers on my server are undergeared as well (not even full r8/99+5 armors +5 or lower bow, but +10 claws). Casters are becoming somewhat averse to archers on my server because undergeared archers are trying to do caster nirvana without BV or a good wep. There is also a view of archers as fragile because many are undergeared and die if they AoE too much.

Overall though, archers can get squads quite easily. It does depend who you know however. Some squads only form up wanting Barb/BMs/Sins/Cleric and thats it. These people will generally not want archers or a caster of any kind unless they need one to solo Metal Pavilion for full WS.

Conversely, There are some really good archers out there and many squads embrace such archers.

As a barb, I have met maybe 5 archers in my FCing time that play up to my standards for archers and when asked 3 of them were alts of experienced players (since level 81, he is 96 now). Archers need to AoE stuff when a tank has aggro. STA helps in instances and bosses. Stun helps on single mobs. It is basic stuff like this that some archers ignore. Coupled with the fact that many people do not think of Wings of Protection as a great buff (lol evasion) and you have what looks like an unnecessary part of a squad. No one wants to bring someone through BH that doesn't do their job.

But I digress, archers are quite good at solo PvE stuff like Morai quests. We rock in cube, Delta, Lunar, FC and anything else with a lot of mob pulls. We dominate air mobs and we are great in TW.

I do agree that the average person forming Nirvana does not want an archer in squad because they only want one or two other +10 g15/16/r9 sins/BMs.

Personally I find it funny soemtimes. like lately they ask for sin or bm for aba/sot even. and cant fill last spot. I've pmed them to join on my archer and they tend to ignore.

then I go solo it instead, and sometimes those people still wc for their sin, bm, barb w/e. people are so close minded (idk if its a word) and will only squad there preference, even if another setup is way faster or works at same speed. But then again I never have problems getting into squads, if i want to. It's really only random squads of noobs that is the problem.

I would agree in saying that it can be harder for archers to find a squad if you searching for a random one off WC. I am however quite sure that it is even harder for some wizards and venos to find squads.

We should hold a moment of silence for people who are viewed as more useless than archers in the eyes of a noob.

-- Moment of Silence for venos and wizards--

Anyway... At a standard a same geared sin will out DD the same gear archer in PvE terms due to constant spark --assumed-- but a highly skilled player of any class is the most effective -subject to decent gear-

Also it helps to make plenty of same lvl friends and get invited as they know you are amazing anyway.

Kawaii pretty much nailed it.

One of my factionmates got denied from a Nirvy squad last major x2 (around expansion launch date), and he was denied because he didn't have -int on his daggers, even though they were +12 g15 with SS.

Whereas when I linked my G13 +1 daggers to the same squad, I immediately got an invite.


Which has led me to ignore any WC messages for "LF SIN FOR BLAH BLAH".

was that other archer asterelle? b:chuckle

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Ehh, unless the barb has decent weapon, my sin will still rip the aggro off him, no matter how the thing is anti aps. I once had pleasure to have HF in SoT, my sin critted the boss for 75k with R8+10 - nowdays I might be able to break 100k with G16 daggers. Well that time I was the only sin in squad though, usually the idiots aps and kill my dmg, making your point valid. In the end it`s a lot more bout player/gear than class itself that matters.

EVERY DD can steal aggro from a bad geared barb.
But sin dmg is reduced to skill spamming, which is still strong, but no better than that of other DD classes. And those other DD classes actually use theyr skills, while most noob sins will go APS and him and nurf themselves.

So while a pro sins that knows what to do is still awesome, so is a pro wizzy, or a pro archer, or a pro anything

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

EVERY DD can steal aggro from a bad geared barb.
But sin dmg is reduced to skill spamming, which is still strong, but no better than that of other DD classes. And those other DD classes actually use theyr skills, while most noob sins will go APS and him and nurf themselves.

So while a pro sins that knows what to do is still awesome, so is a pro wizzy, or a pro archer, or a pro anything

The only barb so far managing to hold the aggro off my sin in SoT, going full out was one with G16 polehammer +10. And my point really only was, sins are just as good as any DD with the anti aps bosses. And I think I was still using my R8 daggers at that time - I`d be interested to see if he can hold it from me now or when there is orb sale to +11 my G16 daggers.

I am not saying archer, wizzies, etc. dont do well on SoT but to me it`s quite ignorant to say sins are useless, when one refers to the 3 spark monkeys. Those kids cant play the class to save their life and judging sins as a class based on them is quite ignorant. The same would be if I was calling all archers idiots who do SoT, take out their fists for boss, 3 spark and have at it. No, that really wouldnt be fair nor much of an argument - I do have to admit sins seem to have higher consecration of idiots than other classes.

Depending on squad setup, apsing might actually be harmful to overall dmg of squad - it efficiently cuts half of barbs aggro due killing his dmg. The main thing with sin skill spamming is, they can still, least usually, be triple sparked most of the fight. But as far as common idiots go, yes, you might be better off rejecting sins. But the same time you certainly reject the OP sins too, resulting into difficulties to have them take you into other BHs with them. It`s like Skai said, sins are done with aba faster than most find a cleric, let alone a barb. When it`s aba bh, I just ask GC for anybody, pick first 4, if I got BM I pick 5th and if not, I find one just to be safe.

Ps. Pro? I think that term is spread way too freely, no matter how many utter idiots we got playing this game.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

The only barb so far managing to hold the aggro off my sin in SoT, going full out was one with G16 polehammer +10. And my point really only was, sins are just as good as any DD with the anti aps bosses. And I think I was still using my R8 daggers at that time - I`d be interested to see if he can hold it from me now or when there is orb sale to +11 my G16 daggers.

I am not saying archer, wizzies, etc. dont do well on SoT but to me it`s quite ignorant to say sins are useless, when one refers to the 3 spark monkeys. Those kids cant play the class to save their life and judging sins as a class based on them is quite ignorant. The same would be if I was calling all archers idiots who do SoT, take out their fists for boss, 3 spark and have at it. No, that really wouldnt be fair nor much of an argument - I do have to admit sins seem to have higher consecration of idiots than other classes.

You are right ofcourse, a good sin is an awesome atribute for the squad, and for that fact alone you should not reject the class.
I mostly meant WC squads asking for random sins for the boss, when you almost know for sure that random people will APS him

don't ya love how people don't understand that atk lvl+aps+bow damage>5aps fists on an archer

I've pulled on my archer in a 9X squad and didn't die at all. Archers are more of a jack of all trades. stun immunity/range/bv/wog/boc(evasion)/sta(pretty unique)/purge/speed boost immunity buff(handy for the magic pull for the barb)

So saying you can swap out for any other DD and run just as smoothly is plausible but not absolutely true. archers are also good for killing multiple heads but thats a sidenote. There are just a lot of fail archers out there who muck it up for the rest of us. Start running fc when yoru 8x and stick w/ the same squad as much as possible. best way to do fast safe runs.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is exactly why I retired my lvl 96 archer.

Considering FC runs, the role of archer is just to DD, nothing else... which brings us to the point whereby you can swap the archer with any other DD class, and the FC run still feel the same.

Other classes, on the other hand, can make the FC run feel more smooth and easy (example of such class is barb or bm, they can tank and pull the mobs with a certain level of guaranteed safety).

On a big picture, archers is a DD class, they just DD, with nothing really special about them that can make them shine... they can't really tank like a barb/bm/seeker, they can't reach the damage potential of an aps sin or a seeker's vortex, they don't really have a good debuffs like a veno, they don't have a useful buff like clerics, they have range... but thats doesnt really make a difference in pve (a few exceptions).

becouse archer is a REAL class need skill to make it shine where sin is fail proof all over it.

anybody who think he is pro sin you can garante to ignore for the most part.

On FC:

My archer started pulling and tanking as a Sage in my early 90s with basic tt90+3/4 gear. Archers are a lot better at killing harpies than any other class. Proficiency with tab targetting helps with heads and getting hands. Stunning bishops. Ranged tanking Adawolf since nothing else can keep aggro on him. You know how to pull harpies in big room? Shoot one arrow at each of them. Group them together and BoA. Idk why no one else does this.

Main reason archers *should* be wanted is for STA and later at end game Blood Vow to supplement HF during HF cooldown. Any competent archer with a semi decent wep (Broadland +5 or higher) should out dd any other class by a landslide (besides maybe BV Psys that can tank in BV). Sins don't really have the aps to keep up with archers before 99. Then again, most archers today that my barb meets in FC horribly nerf their dps by trying to use claws at like 1.67 or whatever.

On barbs: A good barb makes having a bad healer fine. My barb (tt90+3 140 vit) barely has to pot anymore even without heals just thanks to invoke/sunder/ToP/Solid Shield. In my experience I love a good archer with my barb because it makes me run at 10.0 run speed and I know I have BoA at my back for crazy pulls (like having sins stealth kill shades and doing multiple pulls at once).

AoE dds in general make most instance runs faster. Generally the quality of the tank also determines the quality of the squad, as it relates to pulls. Good AoE DDs let tanks do a lot more which makes runs much faster since the barb doesn't have to go 1 by 1 with Zeal.

I did a full Lunar last night with a squad make up of: Me, Seeker, Psy, Veno, Wizard, Cleric and it was super smooth and super fast since we could pull and AoE the whole instance.