t2 Daggers -.05x2 vs t2 sac + -.05

Perfect daggers = "Gof/SS + -int +range" People say gof of ss is for PVP, but I believe its excellent for everything especially PVE!

For demon, the real gain of 2 x -0.05 int is being able to change a piece of aps gear for better defensive gear while staying 5 aps sparked. The hype around 2 x -0.05 int by the same demon sins that strive damage above anything else is rather strange really. In terms of damage, double -int only helps sage. For demon sins it has no real gain damage wise.

So, if you have plan on soloing places like TT a lot, it might be worth to keep the double -int so you can either upgrade ornies or maybe wrists + boots. If you mainly nirvana and do some bh, better reroll them.

And "perfect G15 daggers" really depend on the person. Personally, I wouldn't like GoF on any dagger with lower dph then r9 +10, or it becomes a hp draining add. That's not just me, I know 2 ppl who rerolled GoF (1 on r8r and 1 on G15) because they didn't want that add. While some others keep rolling till they have it.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Assuming both are 5.0 the second -int won't matter as a dd add. You'd go from 5.0 to 5.0. Range doesn't really count as a dd add. So basically you are comparing SS vs 3% for damage, SS wins by about 12.5% when spark spamming.

It's not just about damage, though.

SS and GoF have the proc that reduces your HP. For some people, that's a big no.

And it's not just a simple question of DPS either. SS/GoF might result in blarghblurgh in terms of DPS, but their real shine is that it comes from 2x/4x damage hits, something that any other mod cannot really compare to.

And what kind of crit rate are you using? And are you factoring in Wolf Emblem? If you are, then are you factoring it in as average or while buffed only?

If unsparked you'd be comparing SS at 3.33 to 3% crit at 4.0. So a 15% proc rate vs 20% faster attack rate and +3% crit, so the 2 x -int would do about 7% more damage unsparked.

Are you factoring in that the 4.0 gets a 5% damage reduction?

And when it comes to 3.33 and 4.0, it's not just about that. Personally, when I dropped to 3.33 due to selling my Pan Gu, Creator, I really disliked it. I like to use Power Dash and Subsea whenever I can, and 3.33 aps puts a few limits to that. And if you limit those, then the damage is significantly affected.

The real benefit to double -int is you can swap out your TT99 ornies for defensive ornies (Like R9 belt, Cube neck, Warsong Belt, Jungle Belt) for tough bosses and swap them back in for 4.0 on mobs.

Or, with the new G16s, get G16 leggings and hat for the extremely nice +700 HP and a crapton of +dex, resistances and HP.

And I'd argue perfect G15 daggers to be GoF with 2 x -int, so you get the dd and the opportunity to swap for defense, even though I like range.

I dunno about that. GoF with G15 might produce some issues with the proc eating too much of your HP. R9 does have significantly better DPH and lower APS to make it less of an issue, after all.

Personally, for that reason alone, I would say 20 attack levels / 2x -0.05 as my ideal G15.

Buff_me - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ik a barb that have atleast 150hp more then 46k *points to sig*

1. You might keep that to PMs.
2. Is that a Demon barb?
3. Who cares, when you can get 50k+.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's not just about damage, though...

I compared them damage sparked, damage unsparked, and defensively.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And what kind of crit rate are you using? And are you factoring in Wolf Emblem? If you are, then are you factoring it in as average or while buffed only?

I was just doing generals. There are too many variables to bother with specificity. Just doing basic math in my head and canceled out most things that are identical, like 5.0 vs 5.0 on both daggers, identical dex... I used 1.37 crit, 1.4 crit on the 3% daggers, even though this is only a 2.2% increase in dps wolf emblem would bring it back near 3%. WE active 50% of the time or full, I don't care. It's gonna be ~15% SS rate vs ~3% crit for ~12% dmg difference.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Are you factoring in that the 4.0 gets a 5% damage reduction?

I forgot to add this in. I also didn't mention chi gain/spark patterns. Even though we are talking about unsparked damage her, the benefits of chi gain still exist although not for dps purposes. So the 7% goes down to about 2%. Guess I'll show my thinking...

4.0 vs 3.33=1.201 dmg, x .95% (5% reduction) = 1.14 damage vs 1.15 sac strike rate. Then give the 4.0 daggers about 3% more for crit. Total of 2% benefit on the 2 x -int dagger.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And when it comes to 3.33 and 4.0, it's not just about that. Personally, when I dropped to 3.33 due to selling my Pan Gu, Creator, I really disliked it. I like to use Power Dash and Subsea whenever I can, and 3.33 aps puts a few limits to that. And if you limit those, then the damage is significantly affected.

Not gonna even try to calculate preferences. I almost never use Powerdash. 1.2 second cast for an 8 second boost, but most mobs take about 5-10 seconds to kill anyways, so PD doesn't help on mobs. On bosses I don't use it if soloing since I prefer to save Inner Harmony incase I need to emergency spark. If in a squad, I rarely will use it but mostly it depends on my squads debuffing. Triple spark + Subsea and attack. Usually adding in PD uses up time you should have been attacking the boss with all his debuffs, instead you were channeling a crit skill, got 50% more, but missed HF+Subsea+Mire+Amp for 440% amped damage.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Or, with the new G16s, get G16 leggings and hat for the extremely nice +700 HP and a crapton of +dex, resistances and HP.

Yep, many options. I'd probably leave pants though, since thats one more thing you need to swap if you change from skill spam/defense to aps mode.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dunno about that. GoF with G15 might produce some issues with the proc eating too much of your HP. R9 does have significantly better DPH and lower APS to make it less of an issue, after all.

Fair enough, although I was considering PvP and PvE. Zerks would shine more in PvP. I forgot about the +20 attack level add-on since all people have talked about lately is G15 zerk vs 40 attack lvl G16s.

And at +10, it'd be rough getting your zerks back in hp. At +12 G15 has a higher base damage than R9, though. It just doesn't have as many attack levels so R9 out dph's it. Still, I think you'd safe enough at +10. I have 4.0 +10 zerks, alot of people have 5.0 zerks, and no problems tanking anything. Double -int on top of that and you could be 5.0 zerks with better gear than almost any 5.0 sins have currently and be pretty stable.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And that right there is my point.
The two of them are, from a DPS perspective, identical. So the only concerns should be DPH and personal aspects. In DPH, the SS/-interval wins out for obvious reasons. But who knows, I would rather not see a 2x -0.05 interval weapon getting rerolled. Rare stuff.

I'd rather not see it rerolled either. Its an excellent dagger and can be sold to someone who values defense. The 2% difference favoring the 2x -int is unsparked. The SS dagger gets 12.5% more dps when sparking. Both have their benefits, but aren't about the same. Just matters which you prefer. Personally, I'd go 2 x -int.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd rather not waste a chi skill only to have someone EP over it.

EP doesn't overwrite. Whichever is on first is on until it expires, then a new EP/Subsea can be put on. So you just have to let your squadmates know you'll be Subseaing/EPing. Designating one sin to do it all works best.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

For a total of 334% over the full 15 seconds. Without Power Dash it'd be 277%.

So that's ~20% more DPS over a full spark.

With Demon Subsea instead, it'd be 2 of nothing, 6 of 461% and 7 of 338% for an overall 342%, or 287% without Power Dash for an increase of 19%.

That's an increase for just you. One dd out of 5 or 6. Whereas a 10% more Subsea (multiply it by HF, Amp, TM, pdef debuff...) is a decent sized boost for the whole squad.

As you pointed out, if another sin is your go-to Subseaer/EPer then PD away. Or if your dd is pretty close, like these two daggers, let the tankier sin PD to glue aggro onto them.