Some specific sage vs demon questions.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

Yes another.. But i go into more specifics and i have some specific questions. I will also be explaining my current line of thought. So please tell me if you think where my thoughts are wrong and answer my questions if you can

I know thing can depend on your goals and your equipment so i add a little bit of my background first.

Im a lvl 84 barb. This is my main and im only playing for a relatively short time. Also i do not cashshop, so r9 is not in the picture for the comming years. I do however also have a lvl 77 seeker dedicated to zhenning for some income and i am a reasonable merchant. So lets assume i make 5 a day. Since i want to keep most of my cash for merchanting, this means the first month of being level 100, i will be running around in simple mountcrasher gears, probably with 4 x40 hp and 3-4 refinements. I might want to go out of my way to spend 10-20m on my weapon. Im interested in a time span of only several months - half a year, so during that time, my budget should grow to something between 500m and 1b.

Since i dont think this budget is gonna make me succesfull in pvp between the R9 people, my goals are to be a good tank in squads. Soloing PvE is not a concern for me.

Being a tank i have never learned or used any of the human form skills. Not only do i think i will not use them in the future either, it also completely disables me of judging them in demon or sage form.

So i have looked at the tiger form skills and my thoughts are this:

Skills that i need questions answered before i can consider

Sunder demon. The 5 seconds double crit rate, does that include the sunder itself or does it start AFTER the sunder ?

Roar demon. Does this returned damage cause agro like all other damage i'd do to mobs ?

Beasting kings inspiration demonDoes this go for every chi i make, both normal attacks and skill attacks ?

Bestial rage demonDoes this stack with beastkings inspiration making it 12 chi total ?

Surf impact demon25% chance to stun all mobs, or each mob seperately 25% chance to be stunned ? If it is all mobs, this means you get a huge burste of damage when they come out of stun ?

Questions on tanking level 101 in practice (with equipment like i mentioned above)

It seems to me that sage helps me more in survivability. Demon helps me more in chi making and agro holding. The combination of making 50% more chi and having a reduced cooldown on flesh ream seems HUGE to me and is what at this moment makes me lean towards demon. My question for barbs with mediocre equipment: what is more of an issue at these levels when tanking in squads, surviving or holding agro ?

Besides that, after 80 levels of just reaming everything, i have just learned to tank the masses in FC (pull a whole hallway of mobs; bestial rage; roar; invoke; surf impact and frighten while waiting for new sparks; sunder) Will i be mostly doing this at high levels or am i still gonna be reaming much of the time ? If this is gonna be the standard, then that would of course greatly reduce the value of demon ream for me.

My thoughts on several skills:

Flesh ream. Question above.

True form. 10% of 10k base hp = worth 1000hps. = about 40 stat points. 50% weapon damage = 75 stat points. Demon wins. If i have more refines and better shards to get base hps to the 15-20k range, it would become equal. But at that point i think i'd have enough life anyway and want to purely focus on damage. (i have a vit bulid now, but would probably buy a restat when i get this far)

Beast kings. Duration over 30 mins who cares. Extra chi is huge ! Very big win for demon.

Bestial rage. Kind of even i'd think. 20 seconds would double total chi intake, demon adds 60%, but you get it faster.

Poison fang. Duration i dont care. 10% weapon damage is very little. Tiny win for demon.

Bloodbath. Mostly a pvp thing anyway, but sage version *might* make me want to use it in my tanking role. Tiny victory for sage.

Devour. effectively half chi cost for sage. Effectively 50% more effect for demon. Demon has so much more chi intake anyway. I call it even.

Surf impact. The speed reduction is not so important anyway. I use this skill to make agro. stun seems nice though to reduce the damage i receive. Still not hugely important though since i cant rely on it. Small victory for demon. (depending on answer to question above)

Roar. Depends on answer to question above. If it makes extra agro, this seems like a big win for demon to me. If not, then i dont care about the damage and i like the sage more.

Sunder. The cleric is for recovering HP, its just a side effect. Big win for demon.

Shapeshift intensity. 2% damage output vs 180-220% armor = 20% extra armor should reduce my damage intake much more significantly. Win for sage.

Skills that dont seem worth findig a book to me:

Feral regen. 10 MP or HP per second added. This was a great skill when i had to solo for my quests in early levels but now its about receiving 1000s of dmg per second and a cleric hopefully healing faster. 10hp means nothing. for the mp ill use pots.

Armageddon Seems like a pvp skill to me. So i dont care.

AlacrityNot only do neither effects seem very big to me, unfortunately im in europe playing on a US server and am too lagged to use this skill effectively. So this one doesnt matter either.

Thanx if you have read this all !

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · September 2012

Skills that i need questions answered before i can consider

Sunder demon. The 5 seconds double crit rate, does that include the sunder itself or does it start AFTER the sunder ?

It does include the Sunder itself. It also combines really well into a Bestial Rage->Sunder->Human->100% crit Armageddon

Roar demon. Does this returned damage cause agro like all other damage i'd do to mobs ?
Yes, it does add aggro from the reflected damage, helping you to keep aggro. To compare, a veno's bramble is 60% reflect, a demon veno's bramble is 75% reflect, demon Roar is 100% reflect. It will overwrite veno buffs, though.

Beasting kings inspiration demonDoes this go for every chi i make, both normal attacks and skill attacks ?

Its a one time chi gain. When you use BKI you normally get 15 chi, but when you use demon BKI you get 35 chi, and everyone else in your party in range gets 20 chi also. You can actually pass sparks faster than a veno this way. Great for the cleric's that neglect getting cloud eruption on their genie and want you to wait while they re-chi.

Bestial rage demonDoes this stack with beastkings inspiration making it 12 chi total ?

Demon BKI only gives chi casting the buff. Bestial Rage gives 8 chi per hit you recieve.

Surf impact demon25% chance to stun all mobs, or each mob seperately 25% chance to be stunned ? If it is all mobs, this means you get a huge burste of damage when they come out of stun ?

I don't know where you read that skill. Demon Surf is a 25% chance to freeze mobs and it effects each mob individually. So when you cast it you can expect 1/4 of the mobs to be slowed. Its sometimes cast before using Slam which knockbacks the mobs because then the mobs will take longer to get back to you. You may be thinking Frighten, which I think stuns mobs, but I'm not sure I've ever noticed it stun a mob since I rarely use it on mobs, just bosses, or I'm too busy spamming skills to notice.

Questions on tanking level 101 in practice (with equipment like i mentioned above)

It seems to me that sage helps me more in survivability. Demon helps me more in chi making and agro holding. The combination of making 50% more chi and having a reduced cooldown on flesh ream seems HUGE to me and is what at this moment makes me lean towards demon. My question for barbs with mediocre equipment: what is more of an issue at these levels when tanking in squads, surviving or holding agro?

Most barbs lose the tank position after 90. There will be a few squads where you are expected to tank bosses, but usually you are there to pull the mobs, devour (50% pdef debuff so the sin gets more paint heals, and it lowers boss attack levels by 10/15 so he doesn't hit as hard) and for barb buffs.
Anything in the game can be done with about 18k hp by a normal uncharmed barb. Survivability isn't too big of an issue either.
If you don't plan on improving gear above tt90 I'd say go sage. If you plan on getting better gear then your survivability will be fine and I say go demon.

Besides that, after 80 levels of just reaming everything, i have just learned to tank the masses in FC (pull a whole hallway of mobs; bestial rage; roar; invoke; surf impact and frighten while waiting for new sparks; sunder) Will i be mostly doing this at high levels or am i still gonna be reaming much of the time ? If this is gonna be the standard, then that would of course greatly reduce the value of demon ream for me.

I want barbs to do the pulls in my instance, but as a bm or sin I fully expect to tank and would rather the barb not ream. The barb will not change aggro, but may cause the boss to move so I have to move and I don't get as many paint heals. If the barb does take a hit now and then the cleric tries to divide their heals between the tank and the barb so the tank gets less heals. Also, aggro change tends to cause bosses to use their magic aoes, which hurts. I prefer a barb devour, frighten, interrupt if they can, and dd.

My thoughts on several skills:

Flesh ream. Question above.

True form. 10% of 10k base hp = worth 1000hps. = about 40 stat points. 50% weapon damage = 75 stat points. Demon wins. If i have more refines and better shards to get base hps to the 15-20k range, it would become equal. But at that point i think i'd have enough life anyway and want to purely focus on damage. (i have a vit bulid now, but would probably buy a restat when i get this far)

True form actually affects weapon damage, not overall damage. Your overall damage is your str/150 times your weapons damage, then factor in buffs, rings, attack levels... Overall the actual difference between true form and human is about 8-15%. Test it out yourself just by attacking in human and recording the average, then the same in tiger. The difference is even less noticable triple sparked. Still, for me, 10% hp vs 10% damage meant more aggro from damage and I came to the same conclusion. I have enough hp to do what I want, I want more damage and aggro to keep my squad safe.

Beast kings. Duration over 30 mins who cares. Extra chi is huge ! Very big win for demon.

Yah, its a buff **** thing. It's nice to leave a BH squad and have buffs for an hour, or give 1 hour buffs to your friends, or buff an alt. Still, demon is better for the moment.

Bestial rage. Kind of even i'd think. 20 seconds would double total chi intake, demon adds 60%, but you get it faster.

We argue this. The sage argument is you can spend 2/3 of your time with Bestial active. The demon argument is my mobs will be dead in 8 seconds after I stop my pull and I need to get as much chi as I can before they die. Demon is a win for me.

Poison fang. Duration i dont care. 10% weapon damage is very little. Tiny win for demon.
Kind of balances against the Sage Titans giving 10% more. 10% weapon damage is about 1% more actual damage, but it helps. I like that its a self buff and doesn't help my squad, but will help me keep aggro. I also like that its wood damage so I can debuff phys immune mobs. It also help in pvp against HAs.

Bloodbath. Mostly a pvp thing anyway, but sage version *might* make me want to use it in my tanking role. Tiny victory for sage.

I think this skill is getting an upgrade, but I can't remember what it is. The game will be rebalanced in a few months, increasing some skills/cultis and some entire classes.

Devour. effectively half chi cost for sage. Effectively 50% more effect for demon. Demon has so much more chi intake anyway. I call it even.

Surf impact. The speed reduction is not so important anyway. I use this skill to make agro. stun seems nice though to reduce the damage i receive. Still not hugely important though since i cant rely on it. Small victory for demon. (depending on answer to question above)

Its a freeze, not a stun. They're about even.

Roar. Depends on answer to question above. If it makes extra agro, this seems like a big win for demon to me. If not, then i dont care about the damage and i like the sage more.

Sunder. The cleric is for recovering HP, its just a side effect. Big win for demon.

Huge win for demon. Especially when you get 20k+ hp, 4k or 6k hp isn't much to have recovered, and since demon Sunder recovers it instantly and gives crit it makes armaing after so sweet.

Shapeshift intensity. 2% damage output vs 180-220% armor = 20% extra armor should reduce my damage intake much more significantly. Win for sage.

I'll agree here. Especially in pve and especially if you are only aiming for tt90. In pvp finishing a fight is hard for a barb so getting those crits is awesome and barbs get so much pdef that more is just kind of... alright.

Skills that dont seem worth findig a book to me:

Feral regen. 10 MP or HP per second added. This was a great skill when i had to solo for my quests in early levels but now its about receiving 1000s of dmg per second and a cleric hopefully healing faster. 10hp means nothing. for the mp ill use pots.

Armageddon Seems like a pvp skill to me. So i dont care.

Its not. Its an aggro skill, especially since you only have a handful of aoes and need something to do when they're in cd. Combine it with bloodpaint and it doesn't even do damage to you. Combine it with Tree of Protection and your numbers grow insanely large.

AlacrityNot only do neither effects seem very big to me, unfortunately im in europe playing on a US server and am too lagged to use this skill effectively. So this one doesnt matter either.

Its meant for interupting bosses but its also good for grinding mobs that kite. Although its not a skill to base your culti on.

Thanx if you have read this all !

You got it about right that sage is for more hp/def and demon is for more dd/aggro. Its funny how many barbs focus on their hp and defense and neglect their damage so much they never get aggro and never tank. You'll have a 30k hp barb in squad and its the 6k bm thats tanking.
I really do favor demon over sage. I did a full Delta with 14k hp and tanked WBs at 15k, but my endgame is near 30k so the bonuses of sage are nice and all but kind of... icing on an already iced cake?
Your situation is difficult though. You aren't planning on aiming for endgame, just late game.
I'd probably go sage. That TT90 +4 stage is where sage would actually make a big difference in surviving or not. If you stick around, get refines up, and decide to push towards a real endgame you can switch to Demon. It costs about 35m in items and you need your culti completely done, but thats only if you plan on sticking around longer than you intend.
I'd also look around for the upcoming skill changes to barbs. I think more people are picking demon nowadays so they're probably going to make sage a little more enticing.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary · September 2012

{snip}

Being a tank i have never learned or used any of the human form skills. Not only do i think i will not use them in the future either, it also completely disables me of judging them in demon or sage form.

You will probably use them in the future. Take a look at them at the least when deciding, don't just ignore them.

So i have looked at the tiger form skills and my thoughts are this:

Skills that i need questions answered before i can consider

Sunder demon. The 5 seconds double crit rate, does that include the sunder itself or does it start AFTER the sunder ?

I'm sage myself, but I know it includes sunder itself.

Roar demon. Does this returned damage cause agro like all other damage i'd do to mobs ?

You get a temporary bramble, so yeah it will give extra aggro on all the melee mobs.

Beasting kings inspiration demonDoes this go for every chi i make, both normal attacks and skill attacks ?

Gives you and all party members in range extra chi when casting. It's a 1 time advantage. You have to spam the skill to build up chi.

Bestial rage demonDoes this stack with beastkings inspiration making it 12 chi total ?

Rage gives chi for every hit you receive, so it's a buff.

Surf impact demon25% chance to stun all mobs, or each mob seperately 25% chance to be stunned ? If it is all mobs, this means you get a huge burste of damage when they come out of stun ?

Idk, never really looked into demon surf.

Questions on tanking level 101 in practice (with equipment like i mentioned above)

It seems to me that sage helps me more in survivability. Demon helps me more in chi making and agro holding. The combination of making 50% more chi and having a reduced cooldown on flesh ream seems HUGE to me and is what at this moment makes me lean towards demon. My question for barbs with mediocre equipment: what is more of an issue at these levels when tanking in squads, surviving or holding agro ?

The issue is more about holding aggro. However, with current gear lvl of most ppl, the extra aggro gain from demon is not going to make the difference between holding and not holding aggro. It's more a "I loose it 5 sec later" kind of difference.

Ofc, everything depends on wether you talk about keeping aggro on 1 target (boss), where there is simply no hope in holding aggro. Or if you talk about aoe aggro, where barbs still do pretty good even sage. Demon will have an easier time holding aggro in something like rebirth. That's undeniable even for a sage barb like me. But I don't have much trouble holding aggro, especially since I got the AEU skill.

Besides that, after 80 levels of just reaming everything, i have just learned to tank the masses in FC (pull a whole hallway of mobs; bestial rage; roar; invoke; surf impact and frighten while waiting for new sparks; sunder) Will i be mostly doing this at high levels or am i still gonna be reaming much of the time ? If this is gonna be the standard, then that would of course greatly reduce the value of demon ream for me.

It's more about the aoe part at higher lvls, though it will depend on your squad. There are many bms/sins or just OP-geared random classes that you can't hold aggro from and that can tank. So they will tank.

There are a few bosses where you are there to tank, or to fleshream to take a hit every now and then. On some occasions it's just your hp buff they need to be able to tank. On bosses that debuff/aoe, when a sin/bm can tank, you will be prefered not to fleshream at all (aggro ping-pong making those bosses debuff/aoe a lot more and complicate clerics job).

My thoughts on several skills:

Flesh ream. Question above.

Just to add, even with what I said above, the sage advantage of fleshream has become pretty moot. With genies, chi isn't such a big issue as it was before. So demon is better.

True form. 10% of 10k base hp = worth 1000hps. = about 40 stat points. 50% weapon damage = 75 stat points. Demon wins. If i have more refines and better shards to get base hps to the 15-20k range, it would become equal. But at that point i think i'd have enough life anyway and want to purely focus on damage. (i have a vit bulid now, but would probably buy a restat when i get this far)

I don't think you should put this in such a comparaison. Just look at wether you feel more like doing better damage or like more hp/def. Can't compare apples and oranges by the quantity of juice from 1 fruit to decide which one you prefer to drink.

Beast kings. Duration over 30 mins who cares. Extra chi is huge ! Very big win for demon.

Tbh, I like the extra 30min. But I got another account with a sin. The chi thing is nice, but with genie and sage skill that gives 50chi that can both be used in tiger and during fight/pull, I prefer sage for this. Objectively, both sides got their pro and it's more a personal thing imo.

Bestial rage. Kind of even i'd think. 20 seconds would double total chi intake, demon adds 60%, but you get it faster.

Imo, demon rage was better on bosses when chi was still an issue and you were the main tank all the time. Sage is better for pulls. On a big pull, any rage is full chi in a matter of seconds, so I think lasting longer is better.

Poison fang. Duration i dont care. 10% weapon damage is very little. Tiny win for demon.

Agree on that. For poison fang, sage is just a comodity add. Demon is more usefull even if it's a tiny bit.

Bloodbath. Mostly a pvp thing anyway, but sage version *might* make me want to use it in my tanking role. Tiny victory for sage.

Skill kinda lost it's use imo. Even as vit build barb with minimal dex, I never feel the need to use it. +50% accuracy rings are very common and amber gems don't cost shiit.

Devour. effectively half chi cost for sage. Effectively 50% more effect for demon. Demon has so much more chi intake anyway. I call it even.

Agree on that. Demon is a win for the case of fist barbs though. Don't think it concerns you, but had to point it out. The chi effect was a factor that pulled me to sage, but it's pretty moot these days

Surf impact. The speed reduction is not so important anyway. I use this skill to make agro. stun seems nice though to reduce the damage i receive. Still not hugely important though since i cant rely on it. Small victory for demon. (depending on answer to question above)

I find both effects not so great. It's just a "lvl11 for the extra damage, who cares which culti" skill imo.

Roar. Depends on answer to question above. If it makes extra agro, this seems like a big win for demon to me. If not, then i dont care about the damage and i like the sage more.

I find the sage mag attack debuff very usefull. Especially with aoe'ing mobs. I don't think the reflect is such a big plus. Could be just me though.

Sunder. The cleric is for recovering HP, its just a side effect. Big win for demon.

Sage lost it's use with todays possible hp and bp in game. The crit on bloodsuck prolly is a bigger heal then the added heal on sage.

Shapeshift intensity. 2% damage output vs 180-220% armor = 20% extra armor should reduce my damage intake much more significantly. Win for sage.

Like I said on true form. A proportional comparaison between attack and survival is just a bit meh imo. What do you like better ? If you really want that kind of comparaison, know that the gear you plan to have will also interfere.

Skills that dont seem worth findig a book to me:

Feral regen. 10 MP or HP per second added. This was a great skill when i had to solo for my quests in early levels but now its about receiving 1000s of dmg per second and a cleric hopefully healing faster. 10hp means nothing. for the mp ill use pots.

Swapping my gear with my bm on stash, so I go from little to full hp each time I log on, I know feral regen does matter a lot. With sage and cleric buff, you will save quite a few mp pots. With demon, you will notice a difference each time you buff and shapeshift.

Armageddon Seems like a pvp skill to me. So i dont care.

You will use it for aggro reasons. I think, considering bp ingame now, demon wins. Sage add was nice when 90% of the barbs were charmed at reasonable prices.

AlacrityNot only do neither effects seem very big to me, unfortunately im in europe playing on a US server and am too lagged to use this skill effectively. So this one doesnt matter either.

Alacrity lost much of it's use indeed

Thanx if you have read this all !

Last advice : Take a look at the announced skill changes, and don't forget to check on humanoide skills.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · September 2012

Your opinion is slightly biased due to a couple of misconceptions.

1. First point to clarify (Demon BKI & Chi management):

Beast kings inspiration demonDoes this go for every chi i make, both normal attacks and skill attacks ?

Wrong. The skill does NOT give you a buff that will increase your chi-gain upon using other skills. The actual description of the skills is not accurate (probably, the meaning was lost in translation from the chinese version).

Correct description would be "Upon each cast, demon BKI gives 35 chi to yourself, and 20 chi to each squad-mate who are inside the range of the skill".

This implies that demon barb are like 'chi fountains': during preparation to engage a boss, they can fill up their own chi and the squad's chi continuously by spamming BKI. In the same line of thought, sage barbs have a skill that gives them 50 chi (with cooldown of 1min, cost no mana). That skill (I forgot the name) is more convinient to use during mid-fight because it is cast-able in tiger form (u dont have to stand up in human form to cast), have shorter casting time and it's a 'free' skill (cost almost no spirit/coin to learn, available instantly after 89 sage cultivation quests)

Hence, the correction will be: sage barbs have 'improved' chi management (flesh ream and devour cost less chi to cast). Demon barb will have more or less the same chi-consumption as if flesh ream or devour were still lvl 10.

2. Second Point to Clarify (Role of Barbs at end-game)

My question for barbs with mediocre equipment: what is more of an issue at these levels when tanking in squads, surviving or holding agro ?

Besides that, after 80 levels of just reaming everything, i have just learned to tank the masses in FC (pull a whole hallway of mobs; bestial rage; roar; invoke; surf impact and frighten while waiting for new sparks; sunder) Will i be mostly doing this at high levels or am i still gonna be reaming much of the time ? If this is gonna be the standard, then that would of course greatly reduce the value of demon ream for me.

Your most important job in end-game instance will be to pull massive amount of mobs (e.g BH Lunar, Rebirth Order Delta - up to wave 9, BH Warsong -Metal/Fire, Phoenix Valley 100+) Comparatively, FC pulls are just a 'warm-up' compared to end-game pulls. Most of those pulls will have mobs can deal very high magical damage and can stun you at random times. This is also one of the reasons you need to get necklace/belt with a lot of magical-defence and also get decent HP (my recommended strict minimum is at 15k+ HP) to perform decently at end game instances.

Your other job will be to ream on bosses... though, the relevance of this job has been in the centre on many controversial discussion because of 2 main reasons:
(i) Triple Spark + APS has potential to generates so much damage that spamming flesh ream simply cannot keep aggro consistently.
(ii) A lot of bosses can be tanked by other classes than barb. At end-game, you will find a lot of BM/Sins that can tank and keep aggro on bosses much better than you (because of their godly gears), or even clerics with more HP than you! b:cry.

In one way, the thing that you have been doing for the past 80 lvls (i.e spamming flesh ream), will be less important... or in some cases, completely useless. But you will still be wanted in squads.... for the buffs, for the devour, to pull tons of mobs, or to tank bosses for the squads without godly-geared people.

3. Third Point to Clarify (Tiger form Damage & Aggro)

True form. 10% of 10k base hp = worth 1000hps. = about 40 stat points. 50% weapon damage = 75 stat points. Demon wins. If i have more refines and better shards to get base hps to the 15-20k range, it would become equal. But at that point i think i'd have enough life anyway and want to purely focus on damage.

It not quite accurate to compare sage and demon in terms of stats; simply because, all vit-barb (wherever he is sage or demon) will have similar allocation of strength and vitality.

Demon tiger form deals around 10% more damage (assuming that most barb deals around 500% weapon damage +-100%) & Sage tiger form have 10% more max HP (extra 10%HP is calculated from the base-unbuffed HP).

One may argue that 10% extra damage in tiger form is not a lot (which is somehow true because with a couple of extra refines, a sage barb can reach the similar damage) but, BUT! The ability to deal huge amount of spike damage (for a demon barb) comes mainly from spamming 'crit-combos' including demon 'Sunder-Arma' (100% crit-rate). Even at low lvls, lvl90, you can easily deal over 100k+ damage when you land a demon 'sunder-arma'+ToP combo when the bm is casting HF on an FC pull. The other combo is 'demon onslaught+1or 2 AOE skill' (50%+ critical rate). Those combos are very good to generate tons of aggro during pulls. [Just a side note: Arma is one of the hardest physical AOE in the game, and you can recover your full hp by having blood paint buff]
"You are not a barb if you don't use arma from time to time" b:cry

4. Others (Just my opinion on Roar)

Roar. Depends on answer to question above. If it makes extra agro, this seems like a big win for demon to me. If not, then i dont care about the damage and i like the sage more.

"big win" is a little bit exagerating to me.
(i) Considering that many end-game pulls can last several minutes (RB/Lunar), a skill that have 1min cooldown can only be used once or twice to reset aggro. The amount of aggro gain from the bramble is good but only for a short-time use. You should be focusing on doing other spam-able skills and damage combo's to keep aggro more consistently.
(ii) Sage roar gains magical defence which is very useful when you are surrounded by magical mobs.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · September 2012

Saku and Mag pretty much nailed the lot of it.

Catabarbing:
I actually debated if I should switch cultis (I have a demon barb). The only true advantage cata wise that Sage Barbs have is Sage 3 Spark. Ive had a few situations where everything was in CD and I would not have minded 25% damage reduction.

I prefer being able to mo zun classes (especially BMs) in TW over Li's, especially since I can IG or Invoke and just BKI a few times - along with being able to spam BKI prior to entering a base. Key is it not only gives me chi, but my group as well. I feel beastial rage works about even between the two. IMHO, Mo Zuns and BKI beats out Sage's Li Chi.

The HP and Phys def difference I don't feel is a huge bump to really say sage is extremely better Cata wise. It's nice though, don't get me wrong. I feel it is our skills that make up 90% of our survivability - that HP and defenses is just to give you enough time to get the skills off. But between the HP, Phys Def, and Sage 3 Spark, it can be said Sage is a better catabarb.

In the end I pull catas just as well as Sage. Just me and my group is ready way faster chi wise being demon. Chi is the #1 problem resource in TW, so I feel that is a huge considerations and advantage for Demon Barbs.

PvE:
The Sunder and Arma combo is really awesome, but not really a biggie for cata.

I do keep aggro better than sage in Trials and etc PvE wise. Being able to spam FR and Alacrity faster makes a large difference.

Overall...
Sage can be said to be better for Cata for sure - but it's not a night and day difference at all. But I like to PvE and PK in TW too, and Demon by far wins out there.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

Thanks for the great replies !

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · September 2012

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

Thanks for the great replies !

I wanted more questions b:cry

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

maybe later after i have checked the human form skills and found the skill changes you talk about

(1 question could be where those skill changes are explained, but i havent searched for them yet, so i should do that first...

)

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

actually reading the lvl 100 skills i do have a questing

Raging slap, it makes the mob 100% sure to attack you if i read correctly ?

Does it also create agro ? does it reset agro ? is it's effect canceled by roar ?

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · September 2012

raging slap does NOT work on pve mobs or boss. Only works on players (PVP,PK,TW).

On the other hand, Roar resets any aggro (accumulated from yourself or other players) and additionally give yourself a bit of aggro. (alpha male also gives a similar effect but with very little/negligible aggro gain afterwards)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · September 2012

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

raging slap does NOT work on pve mobs or boss. Only works on players (PVP,PK,TW).

On the other hand, Roar resets any aggro (accumulated from yourself or other players) and additionally give yourself a bit of aggro. (alpha male also gives a similar effect but with very little/negligible aggro gain afterwards)

Glad you pointed out Alpha Male gives very little/negligible aggro. It does give a reflect, which creates a bit of aggro but still a pathetic amount compared to most dd's. I'm seeing alot of barbs use AM to reaggro mobs/try to pull aggro. For instance Delta and the Wizard gets aggro on a few mobs they'll try to use AM to get aggro back, reset aggro, and then the wizard gets all the aggro and dies.

Alpha Male is the best way to lose aggro.

It gives the tiniest bit of aggro, enough to prevent heal aggro. But the first attack after you use it will have aggro. Basically after AM is used everyone starts with zero aggro again, including you.

I use AM in a few situations. In spawnpoint delta when the mobs spawn around the cleric and I don't want to wait for roars channeling since the cleric may be dead by the time it casts, I use it as I run away so the mobs follow me and I can properly aggro with roar and damage.

I use it in Warsong when I collect the mobs and try to roar but I'm sealed, wait, try to roar again, sealed, wait, try to roar again, sealed, wait, try again, and if I get sealed a 3rd time and my invoke is almost done or I'm getting close to dieing I'll AM, run back, and try to roar inside the bubble instead. Its nice when you have squads that pay attention because when you bring back the mobs after just an AM the first person to aoe will get attacked by all the mobs.

In Warsong I use it get rid of aggro. Bring the mobs back, and if you have someone who can tank at least while in bubble, let people kill the SAs and then AM, let another person take aggro, and go off to get the next group. This is a fast way to bring mobs to bb a few at a time without your dd's having to wait for your pulls.

If you roar and mobs are outside of your range, you may need to AM to get those mobs aggroed, but you will lose the benefit of your roar. It may be smarter to cast untamed wrath at them but sometimes its necessary to AM in situations like these.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

raging slap does NOT work on pve mobs or boss. Only works on players (PVP,PK,TW).

On the other hand, Roar resets any aggro (accumulated from yourself or other players) and additionally give yourself a bit of aggro. (alpha male also gives a similar effect but with very little/negligible aggro gain afterwards)

Interesting, even though i don't pvp really, but you know sometimes in the cube you have to....

What does it exactly do against players? Are the forced to attack you with their basic attack or is only their target locked onto you and can they still cast ? Can they still run ?

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · September 2012

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

Interesting, even though i don't pvp really, but you know sometimes in the cube you have to....

What does it exactly do against players? Are the forced to attack you with their basic attack or is only their target locked onto you and can they still cast ? Can they still run ?

the skill raging slap lock the player target to you, he can still do anything, but only having you as target, and it's for a few seconds, sincerely, that's one of the most useless skill for barbs, i was discussing with a barb friend about this skill, in the end we just could find 1 use for this skill, save some1 in pk (like your wife lol) don't even think on using it on TW, cause it cost chi (which is important for other skills). don't even bother in learn it!b:shocked

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · September 2012

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide wrote: »

the skill raging slap lock the player target to you, he can still do anything, but only having you as target, and it's for a few seconds, sincerely, that's one of the most useless skill for barbs, i was discussing with a barb friend about this skill, in the end we just could find 1 use for this skill, save some1 in pk (like your wife lol) don't even think on using it on TW, cause it cost chi (which is important for other skills). don't even bother in learn it!b:shocked

Blood covered it. Its useless in PvE. In 1v1 pk its useless since of course your opponent will target you.

Group pk I can understand using it since the normal strategy is kill the healer, then kill the threats (the DDs) then you can work and focus on the tank. But 1 spark is alot to use for this skill and there are a few other things wrong with it. It's a 2 seconds channel+cast. In ohsht situations 2 seconds to redirect aggro to you is a long time. For instance a sin pops double sparked stealth on your cleric. They might be dead by the time you actually cast Slap.

The other thing is its melee. Barbs are major targets for aoes, things like Barrage and wizzy double spark aoes. No one should be so close to you that you can also melee their attacker. You always have to run towards the attacker which adds time to how long it'll take you to cast Slap. Wouldn't you rather just attack and kill them?

TW, its been said. Spark cost. Melee range. Being a catapuller yet taking the time to attack a single opponent?

I'm sure there are uses for this skill, honestly. If I've got an archer with me and I'm attacking someone I'd rather my opponent focus on me while the archer guns them down. Its a rare situation where this skill will fit, though.

Blaxton - Raging Tide · September 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

The other thing is its melee.

This. It would be a far more interesting skill if it had the range of Ancestral Rage (or even Berserker's Wrath). Now I'm imagining barbs running around, tag-teaming someone using this skill from 35 meters away...

Luckily, the duration is being increased by 2 seconds, and the chi cost reduced to 35, but it's still chi that could be better used for something else... I'll probably get this skill anyway because I have OCD and want all my skills.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur · September 2012

Just reached 89 and done some more thinking.

I guess as long as they dont fix this game and nerf BP from 2% to 0.5% or so, im not gonna be tanking any bosses. So i guess ill forget about that part. That leaves the tanking of mass mobs. Indeed i am starting to see the advantages of sage roar and the longer bestial rage is indeed much better than the 8 chi per hit.
In the far far future i might do TW sometimes and then i guess sage is definately a winner.

So now i just have to accept the loss of demon sunder before i can make the choise for sage.....

WnbTank - Archosaur · September 2012

I`d like to point out Demon Roar, it works in TWs and gives you immunity against most sins. The number of sins who actually understand you are brambling yourself with roar is almost non-existent. It`s lot better to have sins 2-3 shot themselves on spark than tank it as sage, no matter the higher p.defense.

And if you ever become "DD barb" instead of a cata barb, then demon just shines. When my barb was slightly over average gear(Right after first cheap ranksale with R8 gear), I kept 1 shotting robe squads with Sunder. And there is really nothing like barb who can just run in, ToP, arma the the clerics & ppl around them in your base.

I do it simply by violent triumph -> invoke -> run next to cleric -> ToP -> humanoid -> arma. One could prolly chain 2 spark apo there and actually sunder before arma to get 100% crit. But I find that bit risky due how short violent triumph lasts, I rather take safe arma on the squishies. One small thing though, alacrity the BB before arma. Most wont be too afraid of single barb if they are in BB, which is an reasonable conclusion, dropping the BB and dropping arma asap after will take a lot of people by surprise.

A lot of things demons can do in TWs to be deadly revolve around ppl who arent expecting it. I hear so much talk how barbs should be ignored if they dont pull cata, that is really horrible gameplan due how much damage barbs can do ignored - But this again revolves around ignorance. But if you are intending to not R9, etc. You will likely find your way into faction that is small to mid-sized when it comes to TWs and I`d count on the opponents to be somewhat ignorant.

Some specific sage vs demon questions.

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