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  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'm a bit tired of people pretending that the fact archer was meant for ranged attack is a valid argument to the point they are trying to prove.

    Let's apply that sort of thought to another class. BMs, for example, were not even intended to be a major DD class. If the same kind of "logic" applies, then people should not be creating BMs to DD should they?

    Archers were intended for range and they should stay that way right? so OBVIOUSLY since Bms were not supposed to be top DD's, they all need to stop wearing LA gear or ornies for 5.0 and be HA CCers like they were intended to be, right? Also, lets forbid sins from using bows while we are it, because obviously it wasn't intended for them to be able to have constant range attack and outDD archers while they are at it.

    You can not apply a process of thinking to one matter when it suits your tastes and ignore it when it inconveniences you.


    I always thought of BMs as a DD class. They have dragons with axes and wield more weapons and skills than any other class out there. They were also good backup tanks way back in the day because they could out DD other classes when used and geared right and had so many control skills. Sure archers and wizards had to watch their aggro at first but it's not like that was a huge problem. Perhaps in 2008 that wasn't a problem, by I do know that it was like that in 2009 even before the fish. Whenever I looked for a tank for anything, it was a barb or a BM. Even back then.
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  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    BM is totally support...if you're talking about mass PvP. In PvE anything that can take aggro and live is tank.
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  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    BM is totally support...if you're talking about mass PvP. In PvE anything that can take aggro and live is tank.

    Wouldn't the point of daggers be to farm dungeons and such faster? I thought the APS craze was mostly about farming, are there archers that just want to fist stuff in pvp?

    edit: nevermind, don't answer that. b:lipcurl
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  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Wouldn't the point of daggers be to farm dungeons and such faster? I thought the APS craze was mostly about farming, are there archers that just want to fist stuff in pvp?

    edit: nevermind, don't answer that. b:lipcurl

    Don't think that post mentioned anything about archers.
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  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Don't think that post mentioned anything about archers.

    Nah, it didn't. Just saying the comparison is probably mostly PvE. And in PvE, BMs are definitely DDs. So saying that archers are ranged class and hence shouldn't be given daggers/BP etc is a perfectly valid argument. Although looking at my posting now it's definitely not that clear. Sorry about that.
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I always thought of BMs as a DD class. They have dragons with axes and wield more weapons and skills than any other class out there. They were also good backup tanks way back in the day because they could out DD other classes when used and geared right and had so many control skills. Sure archers and wizards had to watch their aggro at first but it's not like that was a huge problem. Perhaps in 2008 that wasn't a problem, by I do know that it was like that in 2009 even before the fish. Whenever I looked for a tank for anything, it was a barb or a BM. Even back then.

    They were not intended to be DD's. They were better at DDing than a tank(barb), and better at tanking than a DD, but they were not specially designated for either task.

    The DD BM became viable and even outstanding w/ gear options that made 4.0/5.0 w/ BM possible, and Cancel Cast(now not possible). Even today, at raw DD output w/ similar claw/fist weapon, Archers and Bms are too close to truly say that BMs are better(w/ said cancelcast removal), it's really just their debuff potential that sets them apart. /inb4noobsbringupmasteries

    Even w/ their original support oriented purpose, people use them today as DD's because they have the potential + HF which makes them perfect slaves to their Assassin overlords. That was exactly my point that people's MAIN argument in this matter is that this one class should limit their options simply because it strays from their "original intention" and instead should just roll this other class best known for it's abilities in an area that also strays from it's own original intention. It's a completely stupid, hypocritical argument.

    That said, the only reason ppl really use claws on an archer is because why not? 5.0 is cheap and adds to our ability to DD on bosses. I might be doing a delta, where people want my AOE's, but when those bosses come out, My DD power isn't completely gimped in comparison to the BMs. It's about versatility and utility. If anyone is really making an archer specifically w/ farming in mind, they are probably just pretty poor/casual.
  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    They were not intended to be DD's. They were better at DDing than a tank(barb), and better at tanking than a DD, but they were not specially designated for either task.

    The DD BM became viable and even outstanding w/ gear options that made 4.0/5.0 w/ BM possible, and Cancel Cast(now not possible). Even today, at raw DD output w/ similar claw/fist weapon, Archers and Bms are too close to truly say that BMs are better(w/ said cancelcast removal), it's really just their debuff potential that sets them apart. /inb4noobsbringupmasteries

    Even w/ their original support oriented purpose, people use them today as DD's because they have the potential + HF which makes them perfect slaves to their Assassin overlords. That was exactly my point that people's MAIN argument in this matter is that this one class should limit their options simply because it strays from their "original intention" and instead should just roll this other class best known for it's abilities in an area that strays from it's own original intention. It's a completely stupid, hypocritical argument.

    That said, the only reason ppl really use claws on an archer is because why not? 5.0 is cheap and adds to our ability to DD on bosses. I might be doing a delta, where people want my AOE's, but when those bosses come out, My DD power isn't completely gimped in comparison to the BMs. It's about versatility and utility. If anyone is really making an archer specifically w/ farming in mind, they are probably just pretty poor/casual.


    Well, I'm not saying not to use claws. I'm saying that they shouldn't add content to support Archers playing the game in a way that wasn't wholly intended. BMs were always supposed to be something that could do a bit of everything. They were supposed to be DDs, they were supposed to be backup tanks, they weren't supposed to be quite as good at it as the classes specifically built for that. But those were intended roles for them. They were always supposed to be able to use fists. Archers on the other hand can't even equip daggers. They were never meant to backup tank and don't have the skills to add that kind of support. So why should PWI give them daggers? And the other argument that always comes along eventually with this, why should they give them BP? It's not what they were intended for, although I do agree that archers should use fists if they want to do some extra dps on bosses because it clearly works well. But their damage is already comparable to a fist bm using claws. The two classes that are meant to attack in melee range and have all the skills for it, of course should be better at it.
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    Pusillanimous:
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    2) Proceeding from or indicating a cowardly spirit
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Well, I'm not saying not to use claws. I'm saying that they shouldn't add content to support Archers playing the game in a way that wasn't wholly intended. BMs were always supposed to be something that could do a bit of everything. They were supposed to be DDs, they were supposed to be backup tanks, they weren't supposed to be quite as good at it as the classes specifically built for that. But those were intended roles for them. They were always supposed to be able to use fists. Archers on the other hand can't even equip daggers. They were never meant to backup tank and don't have the skills to add that kind of support. So why should PWI give them daggers? And the other argument that always comes along eventually with this, why should they give them BP? It's not what they were intended for, although I do agree that archers should use fists if they want to do some extra dps on bosses because it clearly works well. But their damage is already comparable to a fist bm using claws. The two classes that are meant to attack in melee range and have all the skills for it, of course should be better at it.

    I was mainly trying to disprove a different poster, it just sounded like you wanted me to elaborate somehow.

    I also never agreed that archers should be given daggers. We're pretty well off as it is(all things considered <.>) and daggers are OP, if it were ever possible to make them an all class weapon, they would require a good nerf beforehand, not that they don't already deserve one, but It's bad enough w/ just sins having them.

    Keep in mind, however, we do have some skills that work w/ any weapon and w/out weapon at all. So it's hard to say w/ certainty if it was ever intended by the original dev's that we have no designated melee weapon ever as the game went on.

    As for BP, It's not so much that there are reasons archers should get it, it's just that there aren't any reasons for archers(or any class)not to get it. It's just such a needlessly rascist buff. Even venos don't get it.
  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    For practicality, squad roles are simply not restricted to classes anymore. At endgame, when anything with good enough gear can tank, are you saying some classes should still die arbitrarily to bosses just because they are not "meant" to be a tank? How about magic classes? Would you like to have magic DDs get one shot by bosses, thus forcing you to bring a barb to caster NV every time because no magic class is supposed to be tank?

    Every "melee physical damage dealer" in PWI have ranged skills, so too do archers have melee skills. Really what difference does it make for anyone else if archers can wield melee weapons? It's certainly not OP in PvP like you just said, and in PvE it just becomes one of several twitching APS classes. They can allow seekers to wield claws too for all I care. As for daggers, believe it or not, PWI has made it so the best endgame claws (3rd cast NV) more or less matches the best non-R9 daggers (3rd cast NV) in weapon damage. Look it up on pwd if you doubt this. If daggers were allowed for archers, it would probably raise their 3 spark damage by about 20% over fists because of the damage from more stats. Whether that's OP or not, well you tell me, but no reason to still cling onto the "archers are ranged only" mindset.
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  • amingwatiamingwati Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I think as the name implies, archer should be a range class.. Archer should be good at archery, hitting your target with fist or dagger definitely not a part of archery..
    On the other hand, assassin should be good at assassination, using bow to assassinate the target is still make sense.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    amingwati wrote: »
    I think as the name implies, archer should be a range class.. Archer should be good at archery, hitting your target with fist or dagger definitely not a part of archery..
    On the other hand, assassin should be good at assassination, using bow to assassinate the target is still make sense.

    Archers in battle would generally also make use of some form of close-combat weapon...

    Also real life assassins can't go invisible...
  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Archers in battle would generally also make use of some form of close-combat weapon...

    Also real life assassins can't go invisible...

    This. Don't real life into the arguments. It's just silly. There weren't any time-travelling, motorcycle riding, Irishmen in ancient china either. Yet somehow, O'Malley released the chronobikes into the game.
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  • Xinnz - Heavens TearXinnz - Heavens Tear Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I dont think there is a problem with it. however, if you can get an archer to be 5 aps with daggers, all you need is a lvl 100 sin and pass your gears, get a few mil to get r8, making it pointless to have a dagger archer (provided youre not using r9 legs on archer). Archers can already use fist/claws with a few more str than dex, even so they still have a hard time looking for a decent nirvy squad.
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  • VenusArmani - DreamweaverVenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    -.- bump cuz of spam
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    Thanks Silvy for the superb sig <3

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    Pusillanimous:
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  • Xainou - SanctuaryXainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Archers can already use fist/claws with a few more str than dex, even so they still have a hard time looking for a decent nirvy squad.

    For the reason that they are archers. Look at what they bring to the table. Barbs and venos get into nirvana squads because they got buffs/debuffs. What do archers bring? Yea, an evasion buff. Very useful. lol

    Imo, archers are the cheap excuse for aps. Cheap to gear up but don't get bp and deal **** damage still. I rather see them use bows and pew pew isntead of running up close and fisting the **** out of stuff when it's nt even needed. Most of them don't even bother using STA when they got fists. Ew.

    As for archers getting daggers: No. Just no. They don't even have skills to support them.
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  • Xinnz - Heavens TearXinnz - Heavens Tear Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    same with barbs really, there good for buffs but if you can get a barb opener or a barb outside nirvy, barbs are about the same as claw archers.

    personally id ltake a pure dex high refine bow archer with bloodvow over a barb to nirvy. but theyd take agro too easy so theyd need to have high hp and def, also hell nice for kfc boss.
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  • Fate/Soul - Lost CityFate/Soul - Lost City Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Wow people actually offered some opinions, I didn't expect this to happen but anyways.

    I never said that bloodpaint would be an addition to follow daggers being opened up to archers.

    Let's put it like this. Of all farming instances, where do archers fit in nowadays? Regular Nv is all about Bm/Barb/Sin/Veno, i only add veno and barb because i see it on wc a few times but its mostly for their debuffs.

    Caster Nv has all the casters obviously with the addition of bms for dragons as what i've seen on wc and maybe a seeker cause of their debuffs but i doubt they both get invited much.

    Archer on the other hand, If you've ever used claws or fists on an archer you already konw this, the damage is like 50% of what bms and even barbs deal. So that leaves us having to farm something else. Lets try HH?

    Again, every aps class that deals good damage is considered except now you add all the casters to this archers party for uninvited players. Get where i'm going with this?

    I don't want a dagger mastery. I don't want bloodpaint. I just want to be an option so I don't have to roll another character with its soul purpose to farm coin >.>
  • Xainou - SanctuaryXainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    same with barbs really, there good for buffs but if you can get a barb opener or a barb outside nirvy, barbs are about the same as claw archers.

    Oops. I was putting them all under the same conditions, aka being aps. Forgot to mention. b:surrender
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  • Mika_Magic - DreamweaverMika_Magic - Dreamweaver Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    It should never happen b:beatenup
  • Valirah - SanctuaryValirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited September 2012

    Imo, archers are the cheap excuse for aps. Cheap to gear up but don't get bp and deal **** damage still.

    And by "**** damage" you mean damage equivalent to a fisting BM.
  • Xainou - SanctuaryXainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    And by "**** damage" you mean damage equivalent to a fisting BM.

    Going off less strength and no mastery? I don't think so...
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  • Valirah - SanctuaryValirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Going off less strength and no mastery? I don't think so...

    And this clearly illustrates that you have no clue as to what you are talking about and should just remain quiet.


    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17711951&postcount=19
  • Xainou - SanctuaryXainou - Sanctuary Posts: 5,369 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    And this clearly illustrates that you have no clue as to what you are talking about and should just remain quiet.


    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17711951&postcount=19

    R9 archers. Someone who gears up an archer to go the cheap route to 5.0 won't be R9.
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  • Valirah - SanctuaryValirah - Sanctuary Posts: 522 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    R9 archers. Someone who gears up an archer to go the cheap route to 5.0 won't be R9.

    Someone who doesn't have to gear up a second character can better gear their main, but that's beside the point.

    I was out DDing BMs before I was R9 and continue to do so. Saying that Archers have "weak" APS is a complete fallacy.
  • uncleblademasteruncleblademaster Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Daggers and Stealth doesn't sound right on an Archer. Just like bows don't sound like on an Assassin.



    I think they should ban Sins from using Bows, and Archers from using Stealth OR Daggers.



    One class shouldn't be able to use another classes primary weapon.
  • uncleblademasteruncleblademaster Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    For the reason that they are archers. Look at what they bring to the table. Barbs and venos get into nirvana squads because they got buffs/debuffs. What do archers bring? Yea, an evasion buff. Very useful. lol

    Imo, archers are the cheap excuse for aps. Cheap to gear up but don't get bp and deal **** damage still. I rather see them use bows and pew pew isntead of running up close and fisting the **** out of stuff when it's nt even needed. Most of them don't even bother using STA when they got fists. Ew.

    As for archers getting daggers: No. Just no. They don't even have skills to support them.


    Funny, that Assassins can use Bows. xD
  • Angel_Spawn - SanctuaryAngel_Spawn - Sanctuary Posts: 3,034 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Funny, that Assassins can use Bows. xD

    Everyone can use bows, it`s not CLASS RESTRICTED like some weapons are on the other hand: s.spheres, daggers,x-bows and slingshots, if you want to be like assassins and use daggers... MAKE ONE, I also made an archer on same account to share gear, would be stupid if both could use the same weapon, might as well give archers BP also.
  • XLawBreakerX - SanctuaryXLawBreakerX - Sanctuary Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    lol yea then there would be 1million archers running around the server rather than 1million sins..
  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    For the reason that they are archers. Look at what they bring to the table. Barbs and venos get into nirvana squads because they got buffs/debuffs. What do archers bring? Yea, an evasion buff. Very useful. lol

    Imo, archers are the cheap excuse for aps. Cheap to gear up but don't get bp and deal **** damage still. I rather see them use bows and pew pew isntead of running up close and fisting the **** out of stuff when it's nt even needed. Most of them don't even bother using STA when they got fists. Ew.

    As for archers getting daggers: No. Just no. They don't even have skills to support them.

    So you complain that archers do "****" damage with fists, and would like it if they do crappier damage with bows, but would not like it if they do better damage with daggers. I see where you're going with this. "Most of them don't even bother with STA" is as true as "most venos don't bother with amp."

    In certain situations bow is certainly better damage...but for the purpose of instance PvE dominated by stationary bosses with high hp, permaspark will be better.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • zedriccluttzedricclutt Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    NO FOR ME. I SUGGEST U CREATE SIN IN SAME ACCOUNT AND STASH UR GEARS.b:laughb:shutupb:cute
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