What's your opinion on this.

Fate/Soul - Lost City · September 2012

So how nice would it be for the game to open up daggers to archers too b:chuckle

I mean, we already have stealth now too, may as well allow us to get into nv squads with daggers. The required dex is no problem. Whats the downside? Maybe more QQ about dying in nv cause they get no bp but overall i think it would be nice to have daggers as an option too >.<

Post what you think. Yes or No and why.

Xainou - Sanctuary · September 2012

Oh yea sure, let's create a class than can R9 bow you down from 30 metres away but also can 5.0 you with daggers. Sounds lovely.

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear · September 2012

No.

Just no.

KingCrash - Dreamweaver · September 2012

No thanks.

They can already use claws to achieve the same results aps wise. I don't see how they can benefit more from using another weapon that none of their skills correspond with.

MageMERC - Harshlands · September 2012

How about doing whatever needs to be done to ranged weapons and skills so they actually stay as an archer?

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · September 2012

People try to much to mix class, archer are ranged DD, veno is a mix of melee/caster, for both i understand why they make it so they can't have bp.

Archer should use a bow, if the person want dag he should make a bm or sin.

The problem is not the bp, it's the people closed mind that don't want to take anything else than APS in nirvana.

Xainou - Sanctuary · September 2012

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

The problem is not the bp, it's the people closed mind that don't want to take anything else than APS in nirvana.

And the people thinking they HAVE to go with those wc squads. Just form one with friends or faction, and voila...

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · September 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

And the people thinking they HAVE to go with those wc squads. Just form one with friends or faction, and voila...

People could also start their own non APS squad, i'm sure if they wc asking for people for normal nirvana without asking APS and they will get more pm than needed.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · September 2012

MageMERC - Harshlands wrote: »

How about doing whatever needs to be done to ranged weapons and skills so they actually stay as an archer?

+1000

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

People try to much to mix class, archer are ranged DD, veno is a mix of melee/caster, for both i understand why they make it so they can't have bp.

Archer should use a bow, if the person want dag he should make a bm or sin.

The problem is not the bp, it's the people closed mind that don't want to take anything else than APS in nirvana.

Veno is supposed to be a mix, they have a whole melee mastery skill tree. It's absurd that they don't get BP, they are the only class that can be a dedicated melee class with melee mastery and skills to go with it that doesn't get it. Archers I understand, they are a ranged class. Sure they have some skills that work in melee, but it was never supposed to be an option for a primary skill set. Veno on the other other hand is supposed to be able to go melee or caster or both, and they have really decreased the options for a veno to do so. Not that it really masters.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

People could also start their own non APS squad, i'm sure if they wc asking for people for normal nirvana without asking APS and they will get more pm than needed.

You'd think that, but nah. Many people who even want to nirvana have high aps already. People who have average gear and want to go, either do so with factions and friends. Or they don't pay attention to wc for non-aps squads, or take advantage when they see non-aps squads, and they cry that they can't get non-aps squads.

KingCrash - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No thanks.

They can already use claws to achieve the same results aps wise. I don't see how they can benefit more from using another weapon that none of their skills correspond with.

Dagger damage is calculated using DEX, so archers that wanted to go APS would be able to dull full damage both with a bow and with daggers. They'd be pretty fierce.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · September 2012

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Veno is supposed to be a mix, they have a whole melee mastery skill tree. It's absurd that they don't get BP, they are the only class that can be a dedicated melee class with melee mastery and skills to go with it that doesn't get it. Archers I understand, they are a ranged class. Sure they have some skills that work in melee, but it was never supposed to be an option for a primary skill set. Veno on the other other hand is supposed to be able to go melee or caster or both, and they have really decreased the options for a veno to do so. Not that it really masters.

I just mean that venomancer are not exclusively a melee class it's why i personally understand that they didn't get bp, but it's my opinion, yes i know we have melee skill and mastery, but we are also caster.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You'd think that, but nah. Many people who even want to nirvana have high aps already. People who have average gear and want to go, either do so with factions and friends. Or they don't pay attention to wc for non-aps squads, or take advantage when they see non-aps squads, and they cry that they can't get non-aps squads.

I see a lot of people complain (barb/archer in majority) they can't get in nirvana cause they are not APS, when i tell them they could just make their own non APS squad they answer ''too lazy'' or ''i don't like make squad'', so they continue to cry no one take them in squad beside go buy a few teles and wc to make their own squad.

It's the same thing with caster TT99 crying they are not take in squad cause not R8, why they don't buy few teles make their own squad? I have a cleric in my FL using a aquadash, everyday she pm me asking if i want to come caster, she wc making squad and she do a lot of run, ofc if she was waiting people to wc and was linking a aquadash no one would take her, but she's enough smart to don't QQ and make her own squad, i never heard that girl complain that people don't take her. More people should act like that.

We can't change people, we can't make them to stop make APS/R8 squad, but what people can do is to say ''They don't want me in squad cause i'm not APS/R8, fine i'll make my own squad'', but unfortunately a lot of people prefer to continue to cry beside try something else.

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · September 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh yea sure, let's create a class than can R9 bow you down from 30 metres away but also can 5.0 you with daggers. Sounds lovely.

Hell, why stop there? Let's just merge archer and sin together into one class and call it a day.b:chuckle

_Nerox_ - Dreamweaver · September 2012

What do you think of this; PWI starts to fix things before making anymore bugs

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · September 2012

Tsukyini - Raging Tide wrote: »

Hell, why stop there? Let's just merge archer and sin together into one class and call it a day.b:chuckle

Wait why not merger them with BM too? BM buff is nice.

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · September 2012

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Wait why not merger them with BM too? BM buff is nice.

Let's just merge all the melees into one, and all casters into another.

Of course, that would never work, because then no caster could get away from potentially being stuck healing.

Xainou - Sanctuary · September 2012

Tsukyini - Raging Tide wrote: »

Of course, that would never work, because then no caster could get away from potentially being stuck healing.

Lawl. And then noone would heal because everyone thinks the other will heal. But it's okay. Since we got heavy armored, kickass damage dealing, mega hp beasts with bloodpaint.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · September 2012

Tsukyini - Raging Tide wrote: »

Let's just merge all the melees into one, and all casters into another.

Of course, that would never work, because then no caster could get away from potentially being stuck healing.

But wait if we merge all melee together and all caster together, where gonna be the veno?

I say let's merge all 10 class together. b:shocked

Tsukyini - Raging Tide · September 2012

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

But wait if we merge all melee together and all caster together, where gonna be the veno?

I say let's merge all 10 class together. b:shocked

And then no one could whine about their class being excluded from anything! b:chuckle

Fate/Soul - Lost City · September 2012

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

+1000

Dagger damage is calculated using DEX, so archers that wanted to go APS would be able to dull full damage both with a bow and with daggers. They'd be pretty fierce.

This is why i think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Yea I know archer has the option to use fists/claws, but that gimps their dmg. b:surrender

Reliea - Sanctuary · September 2012

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh yea sure, let's create a class than can R9 bow you down from 30 metres away but also can 5.0 you with daggers. Sounds lovely.

b:chuckle Yes Yes 1000x Yes!

Archers are the true OP class >.> 'bout time people remembered this.

Mor_Toran - Sanctuary · September 2012

It would be a lot nicer if they limited the weapons to the classes like they did with the Psy, Sin, and Seeker.

Then we would have this....
Blademaster ~ Sword, Axe/Hammer, Polearm, Fist
Wizard, Cleric, Mystic ~ Wand, Glaive, Pataka, Magic Sword (which should have a higher phys att.)
Archer ~ Bow, Crossbow, Slingshot
Barbarian ~ Axe/Hammer, Claw
Venomancer ~ Wand, Glaive, Pataka, Magic Sword (which should have a higher phys att.), and a magic-based claw (for fox form venos)
Psychic ~ Sphere
Assasin ~ Daggers
Seeker ~ Sword

Overall, it should help to balance the game back out a little as well and get the classes back to being played like they were designed.

KingCrash - Dreamweaver · September 2012

Except the damage has already been done and I'm pretty sure they can't reverse it due to people already having invested in making their toon a certain way with their own weapon choices. It's probably why Seeker's were weapon locked immediately upon being released, so nobody invests in taking the class down through the good old aps trend.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · September 2012

Fate/Soul - Lost City wrote: »

This is why i think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Yea I know archer has the option to use fists/claws, but that gimps their dmg. b:surrender

That's exactly why it shouldn't happen. It would be overpowered, your damage already isn't bad with fists. You SHOULD be doing less damage than melee classes that were specifically designed for melee.

shotwhointhewhat · September 2012

I always thought the class restrictions based on class only was stupid. You got this warrior archer who is experienced in combat and can even use brass knuckles and claws, yet it is clueless on how to use a dagger. That doesn't make any sense. They should have came up with a better reason behind restricting weapons.

Bashmaster - Raging Tide · September 2012

Mor_Toran - Sanctuary wrote: »

It would be a lot nicer if they limited the weapons to the classes like they did with the Psy, Sin, and Seeker.

Then we would have this....
Blademaster ~ Sword, Axe/Hammer, Polearm, Fist
Wizard, Cleric, Mystic ~ Wand, Glaive, Pataka, Magic Sword (which should have a higher phys att.)
Archer ~ Bow, Crossbow, Slingshot
Barbarian ~ Axe/Hammer, Claw
Venomancer ~ Wand, Glaive, Pataka, Magic Sword (which should have a higher phys att.), and a magic-based claw (for fox form venos)
Psychic ~ Sphere
Assasin ~ Daggers
Seeker ~ Sword

Overall, it should help to balance the game back out a little as well and get the classes back to being played like they were designed.

No...

Fate/Soul - Lost City · September 2012

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That's exactly why it shouldn't happen. It would be overpowered, your damage already isn't bad with fists. You SHOULD be doing less damage than melee classes that were specifically designed for melee.

They don't get bp so it's not like it matters, theyre still gimped

Lesthar - Heavens Tear · September 2012

...And so you'd want character from one class to be able to effectively use a weapon specific from another class so there is a perfect balance between melee and ranged?

If it was so, you'd have to do it for every other class too.

Why not ask for the same level of damage if not more and the same skills than the original class it comes with? An updated Archer class stronger than the current Assassin... *shudders*

Seriously an awful suggestion from you.

If archers are made to be ranged and squishy on contact, it was their role from the beginning.
If you want to kill fast at a close range but to involve lethal risk, be an assassin.
If instead you fear to die too fast, be a Barbarian.
If you need some balance, be a Blademaster.

Can't you see the complete disaster you are asking about? If you want such a powerful class, it's like playing a game on 'kids' difficulty. It destroys all of the challenge.
But again, maybe you would not be annoyed with PWI having a 'baby' level of challenge (That said, I fear it happened already, with all of the massive number of ways to get experience and coins without much effort b:surrender)

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · September 2012

Lesthar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...And so you'd want character from one class to be able to effectively use a weapon specific from another class so there is a perfect balance between melee and ranged?

If it was so, you'd have to do it for every other class too.

Why not ask for the same level of damage if not more and the same skills than the original class it comes with? An updated Archer class stronger than the current Assassin... *shudders*

Seriously an awful suggestion from you.

If archers are made to be ranged and squishy on contact, it was their role from the beginning.
If you want to kill fast at a close range but to involve lethal risk, be an assassin.
If instead you fear to die too fast, be a Barbarian.
If you need some balance, be a Blademaster.

Can't you see the complete disaster you are asking about? If you want such a powerful class, it's like playing a game on 'kids' difficulty. It destroys all of the challenge.
But again, maybe you would not be annoyed with PWI having a 'baby' level of challenge (That said, I fear it happened already, with all of the massive number of ways to get experience and coins without much effort b:surrender)

Assassin IS the baby level of challenge.

and at endgame, with buffs like BP(+insane dagger damage), Tidal, deaden, etc , it can't really be said that the assassin class involves lethal risk. EVEN W/ ZERK WEAPON.

The problem is they have such great survivability for being an LA, BP is so broken in PvE and they can survive all 1-shot mechanisms implemented for instances to have some challenge thanks to deaden. I won't go in depth much further, they've been out for years now, this should be common knowledge.

Sins blurred the lines of class roles greatly, so when you present an argument like "want close range, be a sin" you open up the door to the realization that Sin is pretty much better for anything in PvE. Want survivability? be a sin. Want CC? be a sin. Want DPS? be a sin. Want DPH? be a sin. Want heals and OP buffs? be a sin. Want to 5.0 faceroll harpy as long as your gear is good enough? be a sin.

Slightly off topic, people who want to play archers and also want to adapt to today's DD demands(remember archers were one of the ORIGINAL DD classes) often find that in many situations, the bow just doesn't cut it. They may equip to use fists/claws to adapt, sacrificing very few dex for a versatile result. We are DD's, if you expect me to stand back and use my bow when I have much more DPS potential to bring to the table and the situation is appropriate, then I don't know what to tell you. Many of us want to play our archers to maximum potential as the DD's they are, we can't be blamed for that.

But I'll agree, The op's idea is horrible(imo anyway). Dagger damage is broken as it is and I feel it needs a nerf rather than to be unlocked for use by all classes.

Lesthar - Heavens Tear · September 2012

To _blood_rain: Oh no worries, I did witness a lot of major QQ during my few returns on these very forums but also in-game, while never being connected to such complaining people (gladly, I may add).

You know, I do believe that PWE wished for Assassins to be real ninjas. Extremely squishy, yet having some unique talents including stealth, crippling (bloodletting), sleep-inducing attacks and sheer speed/agility. They are also must have some vampire parentage, since they suck lifeforce away (or in case of undead mobs, some zombie essence... How does that not hurt them, go figure).

Now I guess that the fatal flaw hurting PWI in general is much there again. I think that the developers (yes, them again) did not test the class enough, as in comparing skills, builds, equipment to older classes and during fights with bosses*
This obviously has not been corrected after the complaints, probably never will be. In fact, the game needs a real giant tweak.

I read another source of major QQ, as in Archers lovingly sacrificing themselves...
You know, as in the extremely classic 'leave me there, I'll deal with the monsters. Don't look back, don't mourn my death' thing from the movies and other overly melodramatic pieces of art/sheer representations of cheesiness at its finest)**.

PWI needs some serious balancing. Dual classes never were the point and I still wonder how some can believe that an Archer becoming a Mike Tyson wannabe*** ('Punch, punch, puuuuuuunch, Falconnnnnnnnn Punchhhhhhhhhh!!!') can be effective. If so, just be a fist/claw-wearing Blademaster.

*Bosses whom I believe are too predictable and generally not so intimidating anymore -especially when people abuse glitches to defeat them; just despicable and pitiful. The game is too straighforward, dare I say, much mindless gameplay-providing already-.

** A trait infamously shared with Clerics (Oh, Winged Elves, you need to include tanks in your ranks. what are your barracks for?). It also was called... Aggro stealing, I presume.

*** If Mike Tyson is not your boxing model (which I could understand, though he was really good at boxing -and boxing alone-), you can make-believe you are Muhammad Ali, Manny Pacquiao, George Foreman, Marcel Cerdan, Lennox Lewis, Joe Frazier, Butterbean, Wladimir/Vitali Klitschko, etc.

Dragoneast - Sanctuary · September 2012

Fate/Soul - Lost City wrote: »

This is why i think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Yea I know archer has the option to use fists/claws, but that gimps their dmg. b:surrender

Listen Girl, you're a ranged class. NOT a close combat class... u got a knockback for a reason...
Don't try to mix classes and ruin your game fun... if you're a picky person that only wants FAST dmg, go play a bm or sin >.> This game has something called "differences between classes". Get used to it and try not to be after fast dmg but enjoy this game...

Lesthar - Heavens Tear · September 2012

Dragoneast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Listen Girl, you're a ranged class. NOT a close combat class... u got a knockback for a reason...
Don't try to mix classes and ruin your game fun... if you're a picky person that only wants FAST dmg, go play a bm or sin >.> This game has something called "differences between classes". Get used to it and try not to be after fast dmg but enjoy this game...

I couldn't have said it any better.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · September 2012

I'm a bit tired of people pretending that the fact archer was meant for ranged attack is a valid argument to the point they are trying to prove.

Let's apply that sort of thought to another class. BMs, for example, were not even intended to be a major DD class. If the same kind of "logic" applies, then people should not be creating BMs to DD should they?

Archers were intended for range and they should stay that way right? so OBVIOUSLY since Bms were not supposed to be top DD's, they all need to stop wearing LA gear or ornies for 5.0 and be HA CCers like they were intended to be, right? Also, lets forbid sins from using bows while we are it, because obviously it wasn't intended for them to be able to have constant range attack and outDD archers while they are at it.

You can not apply a process of thinking to one matter when it suits your tastes and ignore it when it inconveniences you.

What's your opinion on this.

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