Dealing with sins

Geshwur - Raging Tide
Geshwur - Raging Tide Posts: 570 Arc User
edited October 2012 in Archer
I've got decent gears and can deal with most classes fairly well, but being relatively new to pvp aside from TW and the occasional open pvp on my sin, I'm always open to advice for my archer.

The biggest problem I'm encountering is sins 2sparking from stealth and stunning, aside from stun-break and putting distance between me and them what other advice do you guys have?

Also, what genie skills do y'all like for general pvp purposes?
Post edited by Geshwur - Raging Tide on
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Comments

  • kawaiijen
    kawaiijen Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I've got decent gears and can deal with most classes fairly well, but being relatively new to pvp aside from TW and the occasional open pvp on my sin, I'm always open to advice for my archer.

    The biggest problem I'm encountering is sins 2sparking from stealth and stunning, aside from stun-break and putting distance between me and them what other advice do you guys have?

    Also, what genie skills do y'all like for general pvp purposes?


    To answer your question about genies.

    There have already been threads about them.

    Like this one.

    As for the sins. It's pretty much survive the initial attack from stealth tactic they use and then retaliate with your skills.

    The one genie skill I say not use use from personal experience is expel. At first thought you think hey up to 8-9 seconds (depending on if dex genie) of no physical damage is great. But if the sin is intelligent they know you're still vulnerable to CC skills. So they could just lock you with tackling slash deep sting etc and now you're in a worse off position because you just used your genie energy on a skill that just became useless.

    But hey what do I know? I'm just a Sage archer b:chuckle
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I do something hilariously inefficient:

    - When I get stunned by an Assassin or Blademaster, I cast Expel on myself immediately, which lasts 6 seconds, I believe.
    - During those 6 seconds, I consume a potion to heal myself.
    - During those 6 seconds, I hold down a hotbar key that is tied to one of my Leaps.
    - Usually during these 6 seconds, the Assassin is futilely wailing on me.
    - When the 6 seconds is up, the Leap will "instant-cast" b/c I'm holding down the key on my keyboard.
    - When the Leap finishes, I cast Wings of Grace.
    - While Wings of Grace is casting, the Assassin will reach me, but I'm immune to stun at this point.
    - After WoG finishes, I use my other Leap to put some distance between us and begin attacking.

    It's amusing watching an Assassin attacking me for 6 seconds and seeing all those Resists. It's almost as funny watching my health go down from Wizards after I get stunned and cast Expel on myself.
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I do something hilariously inefficient:

    - When I get stunned by an Assassin or Blademaster, I cast Expel on myself immediately, which lasts 6 seconds, I believe.
    - During those 6 seconds, I consume a potion to heal myself.
    - During those 6 seconds, I hold down a hotbar key that is tied to one of my Leaps.
    - Usually during these 6 seconds, the Assassin is futilely wailing on me.
    - When the 6 seconds is up, the Leap will "instant-cast" b/c I'm holding down the key on my keyboard.
    - When the Leap finishes, I cast Wings of Grace.
    - While Wings of Grace is casting, the Assassin will reach me, but I'm immune to stun at this point.
    - After WoG finishes, I use my other Leap to put some distance between us and begin attacking.

    It's amusing watching an Assassin attacking me for 6 seconds and seeing all those Resists. It's almost as funny watching my health go down from Wizards after I get stunned and cast Expel on myself.

    I do the exact same thing
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    the only time i use expel is 2-3 sec after sin uses tc and even then not vs players who are any good...

    best defense is to get tanky (lol sry) enough to be able to live through a 'normal' hh auto attack... make them waste their teleports (since its not like they have any increase run speed skills...) by casting moving casting moving or changing elevations is also great.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Expelled targets are generally immune to attack disables, but is vulnerable if sins use Condensed Thorn. Also fairly sure you can get stunned by Telestun and Roar.

    Although if you expelled something like Head Hunt, then the sin may not be much of a threat as they would somehow have to use Condensed Thorn, Tackling, and Throatcut before stun wears off. Deep Sting is not an option because they would not be able to follow up before you leap or jump away. All in all, Leap has given archers much more survivability than before. AD is of course better, but it has long cooldown. You can have both on the same genie anyway.

    Do not panic and watch your attacker carefully, because sin skills have relatively long cast times and you don't want to cast your genie protections too early.

    I don't use Badge or Faith only because I TW and a high vit/mag genie with AD proves better, and because most sins I deal with are fairly easy to deal with. If I wanted to deal with 20k hp sins in full JOSD I'd make a barb or psy...
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  • kawaiijen
    kawaiijen Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Expelled targets are generally immune to attack disables, but is vulnerable if sins use Condensed Thorn. Also fairly sure you can get stunned by Telestun and Roar.

    Although if you expelled something like Head Hunt, then the sin may not be much of a threat as they would somehow have to use Condensed Thorn, Tackling, and Throatcut before stun wears off. Deep Sting is not an option because they would not be able to follow up before you leap or jump away. All in all, Leap has given archers much more survivability than before. AD is of course better, but it has long cooldown. You can have both on the same genie anyway.

    Do not panic and watch your attacker carefully, because sin skills have relatively long cast times and you don't want to cast your genie protections too early.

    I don't use Badge or Faith only because I TW and a high vit/mag genie with AD proves better, and because most sins I deal with are fairly easy to deal with. If I wanted to deal with 20k hp sins in full JOSD I'd make a barb or psy...

    Wait. You can only be affected from CC if they have some kind of elemental damage to go with it when someone is expelled?

    I agree Leap is an amazing skill for us for survivability. Though I'd say deep sting is viable if timed right because if they follow it up with a tackling slash and RDS they have enough chi to at least double spark again and can then just occult you.

    I dunno I've had a few sins show me why expel can work in the sins favor. The exception is if they TC and you expel because you can freely move and still be immune to damage shortly after the seal wears off, though I don't recommend this approach.

    And I agree with everything else.
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  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    KawaiiJen wrote: »
    Wait. You can only be affected from CC if they have some kind of elemental damage to go with it when someone is expelled?

    You didn't know that?
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    If they are the same level as you just stealth and watch them QQ.
    When they try to stealth back use a revelation pot (unusable by sins).
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  • kawaiijen
    kawaiijen Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    witniss wrote: »
    You didn't know that?
    Never really payed attention to the sin buffs when I was playing against them, but I could swear they were getting "resist" hits but CC affects were still being applied even though I took no damage. Unless you're trying to troll me.
    If they are the same level as you just stealth and watch them QQ.
    When they try to stealth back use a revelation pot (unusable by sins).

    ^ Love doing that.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    After Tackling Slash wakes you up you can certainly leap away or use a stun immune skill. If they chain Occult Ice to any of this after you've used your own genie skill then anyone would be understandably screwed.

    Good sins with good gear are hard to deal with because they will wear out your pill and genie until you have nothing left...then you would need to hopefully get away, drop kite to safe and huddle in a corner.
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  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Timing is always important to any character, but moreso for LA users, like sins and archers.

    The best advice I can give to an archer is to time your genie skills right. For Kawaii, even with Condensed Thorn on, the Resist will still show up, but the skill effect would go through due to the elemental damage. Most sins like to TS after a Deep Sting, but when I'm fighting archers I like to get into the archer's space (basically on top of them), and Throatcut after a Deep Sting and then TS. R9 dagger's +2 range benefits the sin a lot here. I have been adapting this strategy more over than TS to TC, even before Leaps were implemented. Mainly because archers who know how I play are mashing down the WoG hotkey when Deep Stung, so when I TS, sometimes I don't cancel my TC quickly enough, and am vulnerable to attacks for at least 8 seconds.
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  • kawaiijen
    kawaiijen Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Timing is always important to any character, but moreso for LA users, like sins and archers.

    The best advice I can give to an archer is to time your genie skills right. For Kawaii, even with Condensed Thorn on, the Resist will still show up, but the skill effect would go through due to the elemental damage. Most sins like to TS after a Deep Sting, but when I'm fighting archers I like to get into the archer's space (basically on top of them), and Throatcut after a Deep Sting and then TS. R9 dagger's +2 range benefits the sin a lot here. I have been adapting this strategy more over than TS to TC, even before Leaps were implemented. Mainly because archers who know how I play are mashing down the WoG hotkey when Deep Stung, so when I TS, sometimes I don't cancel my TC quickly enough, and am vulnerable to attacks for at least 8 seconds.

    They never used CT, however they could've had frostblade buff on which eliminates the need for it. I never had good enough experience with expel to play around with it enough in PVP to notice I guess.

    I'll thinker around with it when I get home. I may start using expel again after all for some of the simpler minded sins.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    My primary use of Expel is to protect Qui when she is getting ganked
    Mean people always go for her first b:angry
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    In the end, it's important to remain calm and react, and that comes from simply fighting more and more. No set formula or combination of skills work in every situation against every opponent. Sometimes stuff works simply because people are not expecting it and waste a few seconds with auto attacks, other times you do something to catch people out of position and they waste their abilities.

    Moving around in 3 dimensions also help a lot, though more so against BMs than sins.
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  • uncleblademaster
    uncleblademaster Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I'd recommend Genie Skills like Expel and Fortify or Badge to block from physical damage and stuns.

    But i have beaten Sins without those. The only way i have done that on my Archer is using Winged Shell or Wings Of Grace for temporary damage shield. Then using Aim Low or Stunning Arrow, then Metal Skills. Doing this, i usually 1-3 shot the Sin. (Of course, i also got refined gear/weapon, so i got loads of extra hp) So by beating sins, i also manage to tank their hits long enough to kill them. lol


    There's not many smart sins, and usually the ones who choose to randomly duel you are the same ones who will do the old stealth-pop out-stun-APS kill- startegy which is definitely counterable. Way more dumb sins then smart i think.
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Most everything useful has already been covered but heres my 2 cents.

    Ataraxia is fun to use against ones of similar level because they won't be able to see you without pots. A taste of their own medicine.

    Leaps work great. Before leaps I would AD and either EA or Holy Path to range and stun/kill.

    Sins become one of the easier classes for archers to handle because we have 2 antistuns and Assassins are heavily reliant on CCs to win quickly.

    They are also at a disadvantage in aerial combat, where our leaps and range (combined with dropping) can be used to greater effect.

    If you are having trouble with them killing you before getting a chance to react, trying to keep an antistun active and Winged Shell up before they pop out is helpful. Like others have said, the key is surviving their initial assault.

    On Expel: it works better for other classes, but it can let you survive a gank from a Sin/BM/Archer that isn't thoughtful enough to recognize the animation.

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  • Tsyren - Archosaur
    Tsyren - Archosaur Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Yay for writing advice for an archer currently playing as a sin (archer was my first char :/)

    1. Yeah, always keep calm. In the most skilled PK fights, it's not really luck as a war of attrition. Don't panic and use everything you've got; a sin has almost unlimited CC and you need to be able to stop them all. Count what a sin's used. If they use telestun, don't worry about it for the next 180 seconds. Tidal lasts 60, followed by a 30 second non-tidal'd duration (Spam your own cc skills at this time). I even count the amount of chi people use and regenerate via skills (If a sin's out of chi, sucks for them).

    2. Flight is pretty much a large part of killing a sin, because sin's are melees, and need time to reposition themselves in a 3D fight - while you're ranged. Keep on going between flight and ground in a fight until tidal wears out: Then hope. I usually use poke skills as archer when fighting a tidal'd sin (Quickshot, Take Aim for chi, Sharpened Tooth arrow). I save all my chi for antistuns, unless tidal's off and I have a sure kill combo.

    3. Kill combos.... just make sure a sin doesn't have any sort of defensives left (AD, mainly. Expel is useless against a metal dmg attack. Faith MIGHT **** you over if you're relying on CC). If a sin is squish, I just auto to death. If not, I auto till charmtick, then magically nuke them with metal.

    4. Genies: Priority skills is either Faith or AD; choose one. Badge of Courage and Fortify are also especially effective if you're tanky as heck and have your leaps (they can only kill you through stun if you're tanky, and you can leap away like a wiz). Will surge is a meh skill, but may suprise a sin if they try to throatcut you. Same with Remove Paralysis. Fortify I spam when I'm changing from air/ground, etc, to avoid telestun. Holy Path is recommended, as is Wind Force if you like flying... About expel. Pop a vac through it, or just leave them CC you through it if you can tank them. Chances are you expeled because you were CCed, and now they have to use all their other CCs to keep you in one place. I SOMETIMES Expel+Fortify, with fortify near the end, but it doesn't work if you don't get out of range fast enough of CT+Sting+Tackling.
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  • Roslol - Harshlands
    Roslol - Harshlands Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I go away for 6 weeks and see this **** on the forums with people still advising to use expel/AD, is this still 2009?

    Follow the below flow chart.


    Can you survive the first 3 seconds of a sin attack double spark from stealth?
    Yes -> go to 2
    No -> Go blue name/stay in SZ.


    2: Do you have BoC/Faith on your genie?
    Yes -> go to step 3
    No -> get it or RQ or stick to self expelling pointlessly.


    3: When fighting sins you need to to survive their first onslaught, that means breaking out of their OI/HH double spark auto if you can't survive the duration of the stun. If you can survive the duration of the stun then you should fortify towards the end of the stun (l2count). After surviving the initial onslaught it's just plain sailing unless the sin restealth or you just plain suck. If you do use BoC/Faith to break out then you should probably go defensive with WoG/leap straight away, don't even bother trying to stun them because the chance of stun failing is too high (tidal, chance to miss and 10% chance to just fail).

    If you're fighting DPH sins then you better have R9 +10 JoSD and buffs. There's nothing that can stop a 15k zerk crit rift.
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  • DarkMarch - Lost City
    DarkMarch - Lost City Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Expel still works mainly because most sins' attack patterns are still simple and weak. So few sins I have ever met had the sense to use thorn when they see a expel.


    I'm surprised at the number of sins I can cast expel on. Basically gives me all the time in the world to get out of any stun, cast lightning combo and finally WoG.


    Generally, I find it best to cast off WoG b4 going on to attack a sin since the anti-stun, damage reduction is what u really need. And yes, avoid casting stunning arrows first since it rarely hits and even if they do, sins usually counter with AD and go for landing another stun.


    After casting off wog, straight away leap to keep a distance...



    Anyway...the hardest part to me is still trying to do something about a sin that double spark in stealth before going for a headhunt.b:shocked
  • Geshwur - Raging Tide
    Geshwur - Raging Tide Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Thank you all, I'm definitely figuring a lot out on my own, once I get Atraxia my leaps are next. I've been pking the past couple of days, managed to **** a BM off so bad he went out and bought a charm (which I enjoyed ticking half to death this morming) and feel like I'm getting the hang of the hang of things
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    uses *badge*

    *badge fails*

    its super effective! b:bye

    Dex genies are great, only problem is if you are using boc you are (normally) using it because you are going to die if you don't get out of stun, aka failure = death. 10-20% chance of auto lose doesnt sound that great to me...

    a good sin wouldn't be flustered by a dex genie, plenty of non stun based CC. Faith is the superior option despite its high energy cost but necessitates high vit/mag genie along w/ the gears to survive in between.

    1 of my 3 dex genies is 120, randomly...
  • U_Sasuke - Sanctuary
    U_Sasuke - Sanctuary Posts: 643 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    ruvil can't argue with kawaiijen no more, she's the mod man u-mad brah?b:laugh
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    uses *badge*

    *badge fails*

    its super effective! b:bye

    Dex genies are great, only problem is if you are using boc you are (normally) using it because you are going to die if you don't get out of stun, aka failure = death. 10-20% chance of auto lose doesnt sound that great to me...

    a good sin wouldn't be flustered by a dex genie, plenty of non stun based CC. Faith is the superior option despite its high energy cost but necessitates high vit/mag genie along w/ the gears to survive in between.

    1 of my 3 dex genies is 120, randomly...

    QFT, faith really is just the best option for sins. BoC is awesome when fighting BM's, because they NEED the stun chains to kill you and if it fails once death isn't guaranteed... (fist dps really sucks when you compare it to sins) but sins have so many different types of CC's, ways to open, and insta-CC's that BoC really doesn't do anything vs a good sin.

    Taking AD isn't really an option either because all the sin has to do is shadow escape, and now you're caught with no AD for the next 3 minutes.
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  • Ruvil - Sanctuary
    Ruvil - Sanctuary Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Taking AD isn't really an option either because all the sin has to do is shadow escape, and now you're caught with no AD for the next 3 minutes.

    or... you could have both faith AND AD yeaaaaaa b:cute

    o wait no u couldnt b:shutupb:cry
    ruvil can't argue with kawaiijen no more, she's the mod man u-mad brah?b:laugh

    haven't you noticed a decrease in rage filled postings? (that no one reads u.u)
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    or... you could have both faith AND AD yeaaaaaa b:cute

    o wait no u couldnt b:shutupb:cry



    haven't you noticed a decrease in rage filled postings? (that no one reads u.u)

    Fairly certain you need a 105 genie for it
    I'll post my genie tomorrow
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  • shotwhointhewhat
    shotwhointhewhat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Annoying sins try to silence when I use wog. Totally messes up my flow. I keep telling them to not do that, but they don't listen.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    or... you could have both faith AND AD yeaaaaaa b:cute

    o wait no u couldnt b:shutupb:cry



    Actually, since you're lvl 105, you actually can. It's possible to have a 105 genie with AD, faith, holy path, extreme poison, fortify/will surge/leaf thingy, and tree of protection.

    I already have a 88 LP genie like that prepared for my mystic, with 171 energy and 3.33 energy regen. W/ the mystic's heals and anti-stuns I can almost always draw the fights out long enough to use both (this actually happens often since there's a couple sins on my server who love to come out with full barb/cleric and 56k soulforce psy buffs).

    Only prob is I'm only 103 b:cry.
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  • Tsyren - Archosaur
    Tsyren - Archosaur Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I would be extremely cautious about using Faith as an archer against sins.
    Granted, it is THE anti-CC skill of the game, but it has a 1 minute CD and uses 160 energy. For that one minutes, you're pretty vulnerable, esp. if you don't have chi to antistun, apoth, etc....
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  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I would be extremely cautious about using Faith as an archer against sins.
    Granted, it is THE anti-CC skill of the game, but it has a 1 minute CD and uses 160 energy. For that one minutes, you're pretty vulnerable, esp. if you don't have chi to antistun, apoth, etc....

    Actually, this is kinda true for archers I guess. There really isn't anything an archer can do immediately to totally **** over a sin, while as a mystic I usually faith then either pop a crit gale force or even a thicket to seal them for 8 s, then sac my pet for a 260% total boost to armor.

    It does let you leap away and gives you time to think about your next course of action though. You have 5 whole seconds of anti-stun/seal/immobilize/sleep to take advantage of.
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