Archer Skill Changes in "Dynasty" Expansion

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Comments

  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    While it's not that bad of an analogy, though you make the first knife (sage) seem very inferior to the second knife (demon). The second knife should have some flaw to is such as its tip was broken off but still has very sharp serrated edges to be fair.

    In either case the tool shouldn't be whats valued over the wielder of the tool and how successful they were at using it.

    My analogy had nothing to do with my opinions on the Sage vs. Demon comparison and everything to do with your logic and analysis of the two cultivations.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    You guys are both horrible, horrible people, talking about killing people with broken knife tips and serrated edges. What exactly is going through your mind when you mentioned serrated edges!?

    Why can't you people just use fishing poles?
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    My analogy had nothing to do with my opinions on the Sage vs. Demon comparison and everything to do with your logic and analysis of the two cultivations.

    Now I did say that playing the sage cultivation is a little harder yes, in the value of how much I did not portray and that was your interpretation of it, which seemed a bit harsh in comparison.

    I can't exactly give a good concrete example of how I view the differences between the two. But I feel there are more "crutches" so to speak to help out the demons then there are for sages.
    You guys are both horrible, horrible people, talking about killing people with broken knife tips and serrated edges. What exactly is going through your mind when you mentioned serrated edges!?

    Why can't you people just use fishing poles?

    I was just continuing the analogy given. :<

    And well.. I've had to deal with one of them cutco employees that explain the million reasons their knives are better and how many different kinds. (This reminded me of him lol)
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    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited August 2012

    you get 12% if you're using the natural elf wings in PvP then no comment.
    Quit putting up QS as if its a major factor. It's not. Time and time again this isnt 2009 when we did sht damage and needed qs to be able to kill sht. As for Barrage dont make me laugh. How often can you HONESTLY say your barrage lasted more then 18 seconds to get in that free attack over sage unless the other TW team are completely stupid or youre in their base using on the crystal.

    Use some brain power you're making demon archers look stupid.


    In TW(where majority of action is on ground) and ground open pvp you get 4% from passives +wings if demon. When you switch to air you get 2%, that's not a devastatingly huge difference.

    QS is still a factor, and unless you rely solely on outgearing everyone else, it will continue to be.

    It looks as if you do not understand how these -int add-ons work in practical usage. Maybe you should do some research.
  • Troll_demon - Harshlands
    Troll_demon - Harshlands Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    archer only should auto hit and demon spark, y do **** damage when u can hit harder and faster even if archer get skill buffs? -.-... and wtf is a qs?
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    baby baby baby ohhhh
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • l7mv7
    l7mv7 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    hi , i would like to ask if sage archer can become 5 aps with the right equipment.
    Can he or only demons can?? pls answer to me , thnx :D
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    l7mv7 wrote: »
    hi , i would like to ask if sage archer can become 5 aps with the right equipment.
    Can he or only demons can?? pls answer to me , thnx :D

    Yes both sage and demon can be 5 aps however demon can do it with better defensive gear, but sage spark is more defensive so theres a little balance
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • l7mv7
    l7mv7 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    witniss wrote: »
    Yes both sage and demon can be 5 aps however demon can do it with better defensive gear, but sage spark is more defensive so theres a little balance
    Thnx fot the reply but can u be a little more specific? When u say better Defensive gear u mean that sage dont get r9 for exaple? or something like that?
  • FaceRolI - Sanctuary
    FaceRolI - Sanctuary Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    y u guys still talking?

    archer is the real faceroll class, regardless of culti b:laugh
    full r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss

    Current build: pwcalc.com/bf1f46790766e26d
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  • shotwhointhewhat
    shotwhointhewhat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I say they should change demon quickshot so it also reduces channeling. Sage is too op this is not fair!
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    y u guys still talking?

    archer is the real faceroll class, regardless of culti b:laugh

    Jajajajaj genie spark
    Anywho tidal protection/sin
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FaceRolI - Sanctuary
    FaceRolI - Sanctuary Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    witniss wrote: »
    Jajajajaj genie spark
    Anywho tidal protection/sin

    which means I've done something to get close enough to use the skill. (fort + ds).

    I've also done something to prevent you from getting out of range (hail/emberstorm) or that I will kill you before you can get out of range (sutra -2sparks)

    to which all you need to do is sof/ad/faith. and then after that what's my follow up?

    spark again? except its on CD and I've constantly had to use fort/badge on my slower regen dex genie.

    Tidal protection, asides from being powerful is "OP" due to not requiring the player to do anything besides applying the buff every 90 sec or w/e CD is. The real reason "sins are OP in 1v1" is because of their ridiculous chi gain and variety of CC, essentially they can use their "biggest combos" be completely nullified and then go "geee better try again!"

    in group pvp/TW archer has the same dynamic, you don't even need ANY skills offensively asides from 'otto attack' (of course being a skillful archer/getting extra crit/atk rate will help you perform better). If you get the kill great!! \o/ if you don't it doesnt matter as it hasn't cost you anything and its just "gee better try again!"

    auto atk ftw \o/ purge/IAS/+crit is just icing on the already pimped out noob cake. (This is again meant for group pvp/TW which I did not mention in my original statement).
    full r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss

    Current build: pwcalc.com/bf1f46790766e26d
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    How is wiz any harder in group PvP though...

    in 1v1, archer damage is still mediocre against other buffed R9s. It's simple to play because you kite around and poke until you purge, it's also effective because every opening you get can be dangerous...but archers can end up having to try a lot whereas other classes have these all-in combos.

    The only reason archers feel like gods on Sanct is because most well-geared people here are archers.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    which means I've done something to get close enough to use the skill. (fort + ds).

    I've also done something to prevent you from getting out of range (hail/emberstorm) or that I will kill you before you can get out of range (sutra -2sparks)

    to which all you need to do is sof/ad/faith. and then after that what's my follow up?

    spark again? except its on CD and I've constantly had to use fort/badge on my slower regen dex genie.

    Tidal protection, asides from being powerful is "OP" due to not requiring the player to do anything besides applying the buff every 90 sec or w/e CD is. The real reason "sins are OP in 1v1" is because of their ridiculous chi gain and variety of CC, essentially they can use their "biggest combos" be completely nullified and then go "geee better try again!"

    in group pvp/TW archer has the same dynamic, you don't even need ANY skills offensively asides from 'otto attack' (of course being a skillful archer/getting extra crit/atk rate will help you perform better). If you get the kill great!! \o/ if you don't it doesnt matter as it hasn't cost you anything and its just "gee better try again!"

    auto atk ftw \o/ purge/IAS/+crit is just icing on the already pimped out noob cake. (This is again meant for group pvp/TW which I did not mention in my original statement).

    I was joking :p I know it takes skill to play a wizard I've seen hordes fail miserably
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FaceRolI - Sanctuary
    FaceRolI - Sanctuary Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    How is wiz any harder in group PvP though...

    in 1v1, archer damage is still mediocre against other buffed R9s. It's simple to play because you kite around and poke until you purge, it's also effective because every opening you get can be dangerous...but archers can end up having to try a lot whereas other classes have these all-in combos.

    The only reason archers feel like gods on Sanct is because most well-geared people here are archers.

    15s/30s anti stun w/ 30% reduced damage would help, or even 8s anti stun w/o movement speed. of course if wiz did have these abilities then what would be the difference to archer? classes are meant to have their differences/strengths/weaknesses. previously archer had to deal w. maintaining distance due to not wanting to die and reduced damage penalty, wiz had an advantage in this area w/ distance shrink, but now archers have 2x shorter range distance shrinks with again, NO COST asides from the CD of the skill themselves. (the only adv I can think of for wiz now is FoW, no cost easy spammable CC that is 'hard' to block, sounds like stunning arrow? atleast whisper shot apparently sucks)

    Wiz's DO have a higher damage potential, which leads people to make statements like...
    well overall wizards have more dmg output but less survivability so its a trade off and therefore there is balance. but thats not really issue. players are actually supposed to have to DO something to PLAY their class.

    p.s. I'm clearly not really adding anything to this thread and I'm honestly not exactly sure why I even bothered posting, so please feel free to ignore this post, though I doubt many will be able to as I am essentially saying that archer takes the least amount of skill to play asides from possibly barb/seeker. also this wasn't meant to be archer vs wiz, but archers in general i only used wiz b/c I understand it well. They should have buffed metal skills (stormrage doesn't count) (glad about BV) as archers shouldn't really die to a barb, but have aweful time trying to kill one, 5min awaken I like (as an archer) but now you should really not die.

    tl;dr the only point Im making is not really a point but QQQQQQQQQQQ too bad they didn't make changes where archer requires MORE THOUGHT in playing, some sort of trade off mechanic instead of hey I can be even more wasteful w/ chi due to lower CD on awaken. + its funny debating over 20% crit vs IAS as both are essentially bonus.
    full r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss

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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    That's because it's hard to make a ranged physical damage class balanced. Either you're too OP or you're too terrible. Archers can't really chain CC like BMs because they can't have too much CC from range or they'd be OP, archers can't be like wiz because giving them powerful nukes would take away from the caster classes. As for being a ranged physical nuker, well that's kind of what seekers are already so...

    Archers are generally still interesting to play against melees, and I don't think barb is very easy to play for that matter.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • shotwhointhewhat
    shotwhointhewhat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I don't think barb is very easy to play for that matter.

    In TW it can take a bit of skill to be a successful cata barb. However, in a 1v1 a highly geared demon barb can [email protected] just about anything. They possibly the easiest class in a 1v1 to play. I think archer is the opposite. It can take a bit of skill in 1v1 match ups, but in TW it is easy to play.
  • Sint - Harshlands
    Sint - Harshlands Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Giving sages 20% more crit and 5 seconds of stun just allows mediocre players to do better on sage archers. Personally, i find 20% crit guaranteed a bit much for someone with a 34m range. It's the best crit buff on any archer skill, which is why i'm rather annoyed at it going to sages.

    Considering the lenght of sage stun, the real oncequence of this in archer v archer, which was already skewed in favour of sages, is a greater need to increase one's surv/dmg ratio. (I don't trust my chances of tanking a 70% crit sage archer for 5 seconds (3-4 hits after qs). I also find the way this meshes with sage immobilise quite offensive, though i trust most sages to be stupid enough to overlook it.

    As for demons having more crutches, kawaiijen is failing to understand her class. Sages just have permanent crutches.

    On archers being the faceroll class: at 12k hp and 44 def lvls, (though, granted, using pdef orns) a full r9 wiz with decent refines can 1shot me with sandstorm as often as he crits (Simple math will show, as long as i don't raise my mdef, such a crit will always bypass me (50% hp+), even if i shard full jades). A wiz with the same refines/shards would have 9-10k hp, but twice the defenses (unless purged) Now, from skill timing alone, you can deduce a wiz can simply gamble for that crit as long as he doesn't mess up. All of this, however, is beside the point, since most wizzies and most archers are simply terrible.

    As a matter of fact, archers are rather gimpy, they just get played a lot, and therefore there are a lot more specimens with insane gear. The best class in endgame pvp (1 v 1) is a barb, a seeker, a psychic a sin or a cleric. In endgame group pvp, archers, bms and wizzies will tend to do better.
  • Roslol - Harshlands
    Roslol - Harshlands Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    5 seconds of ranged stun is friken ridiculous. It's like demon stone rain on 90% proc rate on a class with 0.87 APS plus ~100 attack levels.
    pwcalc.com/c7406c9082b547e7

    Let's play guess who.
  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    seems to me they are all very useful skills even the DoT.
    the DoT's are almost an gaurunteed cleric killer, put both on them (bleed/poison) stun them and thats the end of that. should also work very well on mystics.

    the stormrage sage version will GREAT for PvE bosses, especially in trials

    awaken with 5 minute cooldown is just insane. on an average 1.5 hour fight that 18 times an archer can triple spark and BoA. add that with being sage (33% added def)and using wings of grace, ironguard, and AD. thats just deadly.

    BV ofcourse is great for the aps archer in nirvy or pesky barbs/seekers/BMs in TW with the added metal combo

    quickshot might be extra nice if the galvantic aura/charge skill stacks with it. that would boost many archers over 100% crit and stay at 40 meters.

    archers have always been excellent in TW. this will just make them that much better and have more options.
  • AshenSkies - Heavens Tear
    AshenSkies - Heavens Tear Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    50m for something I'd use twice or thrice during TW? You know that I still don't have full R9, right? And I'm still using Sky Demon's Pearl?

    I want to see you in TW again! <3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    _Surreal_
    Thank you Silvychar for my siggy :)
  • MissTwice - Harshlands
    MissTwice - Harshlands Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    "...Sage Quickshot: Changed from "50% chance to give 20 additional chi" to "10 additional chi and 10s of 20% more crit"

    Sage Stun Arrow: Changed from 1 additional second of stun to 1.5 additional seconds of stun..."

    That's so good, really necessary.
  • Astraelys - Raging Tide
    Astraelys - Raging Tide Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    It was time to update the archer. I like the changes on Sage thats add more possibilities for create new combos and strategies.

    b:laughb:pleased
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I want to see you in TW again! <3

    I left Liberate. Going to find a new home...
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Giving sages 20% more crit and 5 seconds of stun just allows mediocre players to do better on sage archers. Personally, i find 20% crit guaranteed a bit much for someone with a 34m range. It's the best crit buff on any archer skill, which is why i'm rather annoyed at it going to sages.

    Considering the lenght of sage stun, the real oncequence of this in archer v archer, which was already skewed in favour of sages, is a greater need to increase one's surv/dmg ratio. (I don't trust my chances of tanking a 70% crit sage archer for 5 seconds (3-4 hits after qs). I also find the way this meshes with sage immobilise quite offensive, though i trust most sages to be stupid enough to overlook it.

    As for demons having more crutches, kawaiijen is failing to understand her class. Sages just have permanent crutches.

    On archers being the faceroll class: at 12k hp and 44 def lvls, (though, granted, using pdef orns) a full r9 wiz with decent refines can 1shot me with sandstorm as often as he crits (Simple math will show, as long as i don't raise my mdef, such a crit will always bypass me (50% hp+), even if i shard full jades). A wiz with the same refines/shards would have 9-10k hp, but twice the defenses (unless purged) Now, from skill timing alone, you can deduce a wiz can simply gamble for that crit as long as he doesn't mess up. All of this, however, is beside the point, since most wizzies and most archers are simply terrible.

    As a matter of fact, archers are rather gimpy, they just get played a lot, and therefore there are a lot more specimens with insane gear. The best class in endgame pvp (1 v 1) is a barb, a seeker, a psychic a sin or a cleric. In endgame group pvp, archers, bms and wizzies will tend to do better.

    You really make it sound easier than it is for wizzies. Sandstorm takes a full 3-4 seconds to cast, and if it doesn't crit (4/5 times it won't crit), we still need at least another 4 seconds to kill you. That's almost a full 8 seconds. Also the majority of the time we're coming off a 3.5 sec stun, and under the threat of purge on EVERY single auto. We really can't "gamble" vs an archer like that, or we'll basically get a win rate equivalent to our crit rate.

    OTOH, purge is almost guaranteed to proc in almost every fight, and at that point most caster classes have to deal with 6k crits every 1.2 seconds. If we try to sutra or use an ult, you guys just Wings of Grace, and, barring that, still have Absolute domain, because you really don't need to genie for anything else when fighting a caster.

    Quickshot, Stunshot, then watching yourself autoattack with fingers ready to press Wings of Grace or AD is really all you need to kill almost every caster class besides a highly refined + buffed psychic.

    Ofc archers need far more strategy to beat HA classes, but for your primary role - killing cloth - you excel at that role far more than any other classes role.
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  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    5 second stun and 20% crit from quickshot? Holy **** did the devs ever think sage was bad.
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    5 second stun and 20% crit from quickshot? Holy **** did the devs ever think sage was bad.

    As if our resident full R9 3rd cast +12 sage archer on Harshlands really needed to get any more overpowered than she already is...

    After the skill changes and crit bonuses R9 s3 gives I might as well just assume every single one of her autos will be crits.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Perception of class balance is kind of being distorted here because of gear. This is because refines and shards on armor can differ so much, while offensive power associated with gear is pretty much similar.

    This is what I mean:
    "R9 archer" can differ in that some have 10k hp, 25 def lv, while some have 20k hp, 100 def lv, yet both of these archers can be wielding the same +12 bow, and ranged DDs do commonly slap on a +10-12 weapon while their armor is a project-in-progress. The not-so-optimally geared R9 archer will feel like R9 wizards two shot them, but such wizards simply would not 2 shot the optimally-geared archer unless they are getting a spark off or something. Same goes for the wizards...you pretty much can't strafe down a +12 triple buffed wizard with JoSD until you purge, but you can do it to a lesser geared R9 wizard.

    In general, with less than top end refines and shards, R9s of every class one-two shot each other because of the massive attack level bonus R9 provides, only when each class is assumed to have top upgrades on every piece of their equipment can their survivability be reasonably high enough to discuss balance.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Perception of class balance is kind of being distorted here because of gear. This is because refines and shards on armor can differ so much, while offensive power associated with gear is pretty much similar.

    This is what I mean:
    "R9 archer" can differ in that some have 10k hp, 25 def lv, while some have 20k hp, 100 def lv, yet both of these archers can be wielding the same +12 bow, and ranged DDs do commonly slap on a +10-12 weapon while their armor is a project-in-progress. The not-so-optimally geared R9 archer will feel like R9 wizards two shot them, but such wizards simply would not 2 shot the optimally-geared archer unless they are getting a spark off or something. Same goes for the wizards...you pretty much can't strafe down a +12 triple buffed wizard with JoSD until you purge, but you can do it to a lesser geared R9 wizard.

    In general, with less than top end refines and shards, R9s of every class one-two shot each other because of the massive attack level bonus R9 provides, only when each class is assumed to have top upgrades on every piece of their equipment can their survivability be reasonably high enough to discuss balance.

    Buffs are OP for all classes at endgame though - a full buffed archer with JOSD has almost 20k hp and 7-10k m. def. Gush is only gonna do ~3-5k on an archer like that, which means a wizard is basically forced to blow Sutra or get multiple crits to take out an archer before charm tick. This is assuming the archer is completely derp and doesn't know what Wings of grace is.

    The kicker here is if wizards can't take away at least 25% of someone's health with a gush, we're in real trouble, because a lot of classes won't give you enough time to sit there and cast 4 spells. That's why taking 30-50% of someone's hp w/ a nuke isn't OP.

    The real test in a duel is fighting unbuffed...where the game is actually balanced. In a duel vs a full buffed +12 archer and +12 wiz, the archer will win >90% of the time. Even with just self buffs though, it's not uncommon for an archer to be hitting a wiz w/ 12k hp for 3-4k per auto. If the archer isn't CC'ed, that's basically a 4-5 second timeline for a wizard to do something "effective" before being forced to kite or die. Eating a stunning shot just makes it that much worse.
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