Assassins: A Study in Debuffs

Olbaze - Sanctuary
Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
edited September 2012 in Assassin
Alright, now that I've got some responses from the moderators, I think it's time to get the voice of the community.

This was a project that started out right here due to rather good question. Due to the responses that thread got, I decided to start working to answer that problem.

However, I quickly realized two things. Firstly, if I just provided the case-by-case answers, I would end up having to do the same numbers over and over again and I might get flooded with such requests. Secondly, I had some difficulty with conceptualizing the problem.

So, with these two things in mind, I decided to take a different approach. I started working on a more generalized formula, with a few Assassin-specific cases to fit the original theme. My goal was to make the formulae understandable to other people in two ways. Firstly so that they would be able to use them on their own, thus reducing my workload. Secondly was showing the underlying mechanic.

Now that I've done all of the intellectual work, it's time for the work I can't do alone. Simply put, I would like comments on the following aspects:
1. The construction of the guide
2. The formulae
3. Potential additions to the guide
4. Questions

The aim would be to further hone the guide to be worthy of being stickied on the forum. So please, take it seriously.

With that kind of an introduction, I present to you Assassins: A Study in Debuffs, Draft Version!
I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
Post edited by Olbaze - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Tsyren - Archosaur
    Tsyren - Archosaur Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    The sin's forum mathematician, ty for responding!

    *reading*

    -Good job with the overarching formula, I'm very impressed. Might want to change ith to i(superscript th). Just a visual thing, I'm a ****, I know.

    -The formulas were a bit tedious to fully comprehend (took longer than actually just plugging them in). I suggest moving your examples to each corresponding section, though you may have left them alone due to formatting aesthetics. (EDIT responding to Olbaze's following post: Yes, this is quite easy to plug into both a graphing calculator/Excel. But I'm the type to want to know everything.)

    -Potential additions, I have a huge one. This is for PK only, btw, because it concerns unsparked aps.
    I'm a 3.33 sin. Windshielded, I'm 4.0. However, I believe you mentioned the aps nerf recalculation that forces a miss every 5 hits. Therefore, 4.0 x .8 = 3.2, which is less real "aps", and therefore damage, available. Am I missing something? Currently, I ignore my sinking feeling that I'm doing less aps, and simply am doing it for higher chi gains.

    Final suggestion: Google Excel? Or one of those online calculators - you could ask Asterelle, she's done the genie calc and refining calc, among others.

    I don't know about you, but I've had a lot of curios stocked up, and this might be a sticky that the sin community could add to.

    If this turns out well, I call for a sticky for a finalized version.
    The sentence below is true.
    The sentence above is false.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Tsyren - Archosaur wrote: »
    -Good job with the overarching formula, I'm very impressed. Might want to change ith to i(superscript th). Just a visual thing, I'm a ****, I know.

    You have no idea how many similar things I had to fix.
    -The formulas were a bit tedious to fully comprehend (took longer than actually just plugging them in). I suggest moving your examples to each corresponding section, though you may have left them alone due to formatting aesthetics.

    Well I wanted to write them in a way that you can just plug them into a decent calculator and get a result. Comprehension of what is actually going on is a secondary, though ideal, goal.
    -Potential additions, I have a huge one. This is for PK only, btw, because it concerns unsparked aps.
    I'm a 3.33 sin. Windshielded, I'm 4.0. However, I believe you mentioned the aps nerf recalculation that forces a miss every 5 hits. Therefore, 4.0 x .8 = 3.2, which is less real "aps", and therefore damage, available. Am I missing something? Currently, I ignore my sinking feeling that I'm doing less aps, and simply am doing it for higher chi gains.

    The missing 1 out of 5 hits should be there in PvP. And yes, that would mean that using Windshield to boost yourself from 3.33 to 4.0 would result in a lower amount of damage.
    Final suggestion: Google Excel? Or one of those online calculators - you could ask Asterelle, she's done the genie calc and refining calc, among others.

    I could easily do a spreadsheet for it, if deemed necessary. I have done a bunch of spreadsheets for private use.

    Though for now that's secondary.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Some random nitpicking :
    - I don't really agree with your definition of "cycle". I would say in the case off pvp, the definition is correct as the time would probably be "till you killed your target" which is a strictly speaking a periode but with variable end. In case of pve, I would simply define the cycle as the time from the end of a spark till your next spark. This would make your life easier when it comes to below 4 aps and influence of channel/cast time.
    - Don't know for your country, but here e.g. should be italic. I know, very important b:avoid
    - A missing point in general, and also remark related to point 7.4 specifically, you forgot to mention aps increase buffs (and also left frenzy out in 7.4 odly). I think this is an important point, especially for a sage sin wanting to use your work. Those buffs influence your cycle and for sage sins also influence your genie capacities (see below). In case of low aps, you should even include cloud eruption as a cycle influence factor (going a bit far here, I agree).
    - I kinda miss a point on the genie capacity. For instance, a genie is limited to a certain number off skills (lp, affinity and other desired skills) and how many can be cast at the same time, which would influence on how to stack which skills (see suggestion below). Maybe I'm just missing the point that your guide is ment in a reverse logic of what to teach your genie ?
    - The point of channel time is a bit hard to understand imo. Maybe due to my vision of cycles ? I don't find it very logic in your approach. I actually had to read it 3 times.


    A general suggestion, coming fort from my main objective being always comprehension before "easy to type formula" (you know what I think of calculating by ppl that don't really understand what they are calculating), which you said to be the 1st objective of your guide :
    - I would rather go for an easier approach, but maybe longer to put down. At point 5 you start to use big formulae that become complexified with some of the points from 7. Tbh, with in mind my approach of a cycle is different, I would simply break down a cycle in different periodes. This may be more work, but with several collums you can also take into account more easily many cycle approaches (going over 1min would get a full cd reset). It would also show how some skills will delay your next spark and how to combine several genie skills (especially interesting for sage with wind shield and/or relentless courage).
    - In case you don't see what I mean, just an example : I like to cast PD with tangling mire and extreme poison. All genie skills have a shared cooldown of 1 sec. The cycle is shortened by PD cast time. So, after spark you have 2 sec (not sure about the cast time of pd here) of nothing, then 1sec of PD+TM sparked, then 7sec of PD+TM+EP sparked, then 2sec of TM sparked, then 3sec sparked, then unsparked damage till chi full or skill cast for chi.
    - An advantage of this approach would also be to make distinction of when you are looking for the best consistent damage (when soloing something) or when you want to concentrate damage on a specific periode.
    - Downside would be that it's longer, I agree. Making a timeline with amplification and chi progress is quite a hassle for not much, even though it's probably very clear and easy to do/understand by anyone.

    EDIT : overall, nice guide though. Got to say that too, not just point at what I consider the flaws b:laugh
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    - I don't really agree with your definition of "cycle". I would say in the case off pvp, the definition is correct as the time would probably be "till you killed your target" which is a strictly speaking a periode but with variable end. In case of pve, I would simply define the cycle as the time from the end of a spark till your next spark. This would make your life easier when it comes to below 4 aps and influence of channel/cast time.
    - A missing point in general, and also remark related to point 7.4 specifically, you forgot to mention aps increase buffs (and also left frenzy out in 7.4 odly). I think this is an important point, especially for a sage sin wanting to use your work. Those buffs influence your cycle and for sage sins also influence your genie capacities (see below). In case of low aps, you should even include cloud eruption as a cycle influence factor (going a bit far here, I agree).
    - I kinda miss a point on the genie capacity. For instance, a genie is limited to a certain number off skills (lp, affinity and other desired skills) and how many can be cast at the same time, which would influence on how to stack which skills (see suggestion below). Maybe I'm just missing the point that your guide is ment in a reverse logic of what to teach your genie ?
    - The point of channel time is a bit hard to understand imo. Maybe due to my vision of cycles ? I don't find it very logic in your approach. I actually had to read it 3 times.

    Well, when I was writing it up, I was thinking of a cycle as the time you spend auto-attacking in a spark. And really, the way it's put allows both of your aspects to exist, I just picked the spark one.

    As for Frenzy and APS buffs, that's a valid point. I left out Frenzy from the Power Dash + Extreme Poison combination because I figured it'd get a bit too long. Plus you can easily see that it's not going to be sustainable over time and it'll most likely produce the highest output over 15 seconds. The APS buffs are a bit tricky. For one, there's the issue whether we're talking Relentless Courage or Windshield or Crimson Soul Powder. For two, the formulae would get rather silly due to the funky rounding: The only choice you really got it something like "1+(apsAfter/apsBefore)".
    A general suggestion, coming fort from my main objective being always comprehension before "easy to type formula" (you know what I think of calculating by ppl that don't really understand what they are calculating), which you said to be the 1st objective of your guide :
    - I would rather go for an easier approach, but maybe longer to put down. At point 5 you start to use big formulae that become complexified with some of the points from 7. Tbh, with in mind my approach of a cycle is different, I would simply break down a cycle in different periodes. This may be more work, but with several collums you can also take into account more easily many cycle approaches (going over 1min would get a full cd reset). It would also show how some skills will delay your next spark and how to combine several genie skills (especially interesting for sage with wind shield and/or relentless courage).
    - In case you don't see what I mean, just an example : I like to cast PD with tangling mire and extreme poison. All genie skills have a shared cooldown of 1 sec. The cycle is shortened by PD cast time. So, after spark you have 2 sec (not sure about the cast time of pd here) of nothing, then 1sec of PD+TM sparked, then 7sec of PD+TM+EP sparked, then 2sec of TM sparked, then 3sec sparked, then unsparked damage till chi full or skill cast for chi.
    - An advantage of this approach would also be to make distinction of when you are looking for the best consistent damage (when soloing something) or when you want to concentrate damage on a specific periode.
    - Downside would be that it's longer, I agree. Making a timeline with amplification and chi progress is quite a hassle for not much, even though it's probably very clear and easy to do/understand by anyone.

    Ah, this was something I was looking into.

    Obviously, each of the formulae can be split into multiple smaller ones based on the buff durations. In my view, that would make it a lot easier to understand and read, but it would make it a bit harder to use, as it would basically end with you having to calculate 2-4 different figures and then summing them up.

    After all, the only reference for usability that I had was my own calculator and what I saw in the formula. Considering that it was a massive headache to fine tune, I'm not surprised if it turned out a bit hard to read.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, when I was writing it up, I was thinking of a cycle as the time you spend auto-attacking in a spark. And really, the way it's put allows both of your aspects to exist, I just picked the spark one.

    That is kinda the remark. As I read it, your cycle is just a "periode" decided by the person and could as well be shorter or way longer then a spark. It could even take IH as reference. Ofc, this allows other approaches. But on the other hand, can become rather confusing.

    As I put this, I see the value and thought behind your definition also yeah.
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    As for Frenzy and APS buffs, that's a valid point. I left out Frenzy from the Power Dash + Extreme Poison combination because I figured it'd get a bit too long. Plus you can easily see that it's not going to be sustainable over time and it'll most likely produce the highest output over 15 seconds. The APS buffs are a bit tricky. For one, there's the issue whether we're talking Relentless Courage or Windshield or Crimson Soul Powder. For two, the formulae would get rather silly due to the funky rounding: The only choice you really got it something like "1+(apsAfter/apsBefore)".

    As I see it, a genie has a limited number of available options : lp, affinities, skills for other uses you want. Then there is the option of what you can cast all at once, which is influenced by the skills cost compared to the vit of the genie, but also their cooldown.

    I think the main point is, that I'm mainly looking on how to best spend the 1xx energy my genie has, incombination with my own skill. And ultimately, what energy I would need and how vit stands to other stats like regen and dex/str. Just 1 own skill with 1 genie skill seems a bit obvious to me, and is way to often determined by other aspects then pure damage efficiency on solo terms.

    As for that, you simply can't leave out the use of windshield/relentless courage or not. Crimson powder is a non-factor, since we're looking genie skill effect on damage. I agree it's a bit funky to put it in.
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Ah, this was something I was looking into.

    Obviously, each of the formulae can be split into multiple smaller ones based on the buff durations. In my view, that would make it a lot easier to understand and read, but it would make it a bit harder to use, as it would basically end with you having to calculate 2-4 different figures and then summing them up.

    After all, the only reference for usability that I had was my own calculator and what I saw in the formula. Considering that it was a massive headache to fine tune, I'm not surprised if it turned out a bit hard to read.

    Exactly my point, and my priority goes to the understanding before easy to calculate. I also think the merit of breaking down is important in some situations. Seeing on which periodes you amp your damage by how much is a factor in squads, as you usually want the best spike of damage at the start. This goes a bit to the sage vs demon (veno) amp.

    The way I put it and would present it, along with chi gain, is simply the effect of my liking of graphic representations.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That is kinda the remark. As I read it, your cycle is just a "periode" decided by the person and could as well be shorter or way longer then a spark. It could even take IH as reference. Ofc, this allows other approaches. But on the other hand, can become rather confusing.

    As I put this, I see the value and thought behind your definition also yeah.

    Well, the definition for the cycle as it is mostly came from the generalized formula. That thing, monster as it might be, can be used with any number of any buffs. You want to do Subsea + HF + Amplify Damage + Frenzy + Power Dash? Got you covered.
    As I see it, a genie has a limited number of available options : lp, affinities, skills for other uses you want. Then there is the option of what you can cast all at once, which is influenced by the skills cost compared to the vit of the genie, but also their cooldown.

    I think the main point is, that I'm mainly looking on how to best spend the 1xx energy my genie has, incombination with my own skill. And ultimately, what energy I would need and how vit stands to other stats like regen and dex/str. Just 1 own skill with 1 genie skill seems a bit obvious to me, and is way to often determined by other aspects then pure damage efficiency on solo terms.

    Well, when I started building the whole thing, the first thing I did was classify all the skills involved. I quickly concluded that most of the Genie skills are not very sustainable. Frenzy would require 5 energy/second recovery, Tangling Mire is capped due to its cooldown, leaves you with just Extreme Poison as something maintainable. However, Extreme Poison is capped by Subsea Strike's cooldown. Thus, I decided to leave that part out.

    As for figuring out optimal genie builds and their energy, that's a bit too far off the tangent.
    As for that, you simply can't leave out the use of windshield/relentless courage or not. Crimson powder is a non-factor, since we're looking genie skill effect on damage. I agree it's a bit funky to put it in.

    I know I can't do that, but I also feel silly including them. As I said, due to the way attack speeds are rounded, the best way to do attack speed buffs would be something like 1+(oldAttackSpeed/newAttackSpeed). I can include those in the guide, if so desired.

    Thing is, that's only really relevant for Sages, which covers less than half the Assassin population.
    Exactly my point, and my priority goes to the understanding before easy to calculate. I also think the merit of breaking down is important in some situations. Seeing on which periodes you amp your damage by how much is a factor in squads, as you usually want the best spike of damage at the start. This goes a bit to the sage vs demon (veno) amp.

    I'll see about this. The thing is, you're asking for a lot more than most people. About 99% of people would only be interested in either the best genie skill combination or the amount of damage they can dish within a single spark.

    But yes, due to the nature of the formulae it is very easy to break it down by the buff duration.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, the definition for the cycle as it is mostly came from the generalized formula. That thing, monster as it might be, can be used with any number of any buffs. You want to do Subsea + HF + Amplify Damage + Frenzy + Power Dash? Got you covered.

    Even you will admit the formula will be come extremely dense in that situation lol

    Anyway, the more debuffs, the more the time also get's involved if you ask me.
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'll see about this. The thing is, you're asking for a lot more than most people. About 99% of people would only be interested in either the best genie skill combination or the amount of damage they can dish within a single spark.

    But yes, due to the nature of the formulae it is very easy to break it down by the buff duration.

    Idk if I ask more then the rest or if I simply see more potential use of a formula...

    Anyway, I base on 2 different points :
    - For one, I consider the duration as a major point. The duration makes that more then 2 is often not efficient even if possible. Also, the cost of some allows the use of 2 genie skills, while the cost of others doesn't.
    - For second, time of the "kill" is also a major point. Even without doing fancy math, many adapt their debuff/genie usage according to how long they think the fight will last. Short fight means you throw everything out, long fights mean you go for a more sustainable amp.

    I very often prefer the maximum damage at the start of a spark rather then the maximum damage over the duration of my spark. It's a bit the same debate as sage and demon amp for venos...
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Even you will admit the formula will be come extremely dense in that situation lol

    Anyway, the more debuffs, the more the time also get's involved if you ask me.

    Well yes, it will be. At that point, it'd be way easier to just break it down by duration.
    Anyway, I base on 3 different points :
    - For one, I consider the duration as a major point. The duration makes that more then 2 is often not efficient even if possible. Also, the cost of some allows the use of 2 genie skills, while the cost of others doesn't.
    - For second, time of the "kill" is also a major point. Even without doing fancy math, many adapt their debuff/genie usage according to how long they think the fight will last. Short fight means you throw everything out, long fights mean you go for a more sustainable amp.

    I very often prefer the maximum damage at the start of a spark rather then the maximum damage over the duration of my spark. It's a bit the same debate as sage and demon amp for venos...

    Well, that was where we got started at.

    And obviously, the more debuffs you stack, the more damage you get. The question would pretty much boil down to Subsea + Frenzy against Power Dash + EP. After all, it's obviously that if you put Subsea + Frenzy against Power Dash + EP + Frenzy, the latter is going to win.

    And it's not that the duration isn't a major point. That's exactly why I put 12s and 15s as the most common used durations. And really, you can use the formula, with some sense, to figure out the best way to split your debuffs over multiple sparks. And there's really no answer in math for the details. The best you can do is find out which combination gives out the best damage, then you put them in order based on your damage and your genie's recovery.

    And obviously, the scenario changes if we're talking an R9+12 smacking some boss they can kill in 1 spark to a G13+5 doing something that takes 5 sparks.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Reyi - Heavens Tear
    Reyi - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And obviously, the scenario changes if we're talking an R9+12 smacking some boss they can kill in 1 spark to a G13+5 doing something that takes 5 sparks.

    What are the bosses bosses that can die within 1 spark from r9 +12? Please don't include BH19, 29, 39 etc bosses XD

    Off the top of my head. First 5 bosses and Phoenix of FFC
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    @Olbaze : Well, I just put it as a suggestion. My approach is aimed to easy understanding, while yours is aimed to easy calculating. It's not really a fundamental difference. The aspects I like to see, because, as you know, I find just averages not so interesting, can al be calculated with your formula indeed. However, if everyone on these forums will be able to adjust your formula to their needs... that's something I'm not so sure about. When I see the mistakes and lack of insight with the dps formula, I would rather go for understanding then a ready to use fill-in formula. I also think you actually should break it down. Intermediate results are interesting. Those are the ones that make the real difference between very similar effects over 1 cycle.

    In the end, the lack of aps buffs from genies is the only real flaw. The rest is more a difference in approach and objectives.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    @Olbaze : Well, I just put it as a suggestion. My approach is aimed to easy understanding, while yours is aimed to easy calculating. It's not really a fundamental difference. The aspects I like to see, because, as you know, I find just averages not so interesting, can al be calculated with your formula indeed. However, if everyone on these forums will be able to adjust your formula to their needs... that's something I'm not so sure about. When I see the mistakes and lack of insight with the dps formula, I would rather go for understanding then a ready to use fill-in formula.

    Well, the aim of the formula itself was to aid with deciding the best combination for any specific setup. That here would mostly refer to Attack Levels when it comes to Frenzy and your genie's Dexterity when it comes to Extreme Poison.
    I also think you actually should break it down. Intermediate results are interesting. Those are the ones that make the real difference between very similar effects over 1 cycle.

    Well, the thing with breaking it down is that in my opinion that kinda makes it silly. Because the formula is basically a sum of the products of the multipliers of the debuffs. Take away the average-over-time aspect and you're just left with a declining sequence of the products of the multipliers. Which is more of a curiosity than helpful.
    In the end, the lack of aps buffs from genies is the only real flaw. The rest is more a difference in approach and objectives.

    As I said, I can easily add the attack speed buffs to it, but that'll have to be in a form that's pretty much a 1+(newAPS/oldAPS), simply because the rounding with -interval is funky. Plus it's rather impractical if you first need to figure out your interval, then convert that to a multiple of 1/20 and then multiply with that and round it. That would just make it into a huge mess. And the 1+(newAPS/oldAPS) type of formula is also going to be a bit messy since I'll have to add the x0.95 for 4-5 aps.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well, the thing with breaking it down is that in my opinion that kinda makes it silly. Because the formula is basically a sum of the products of the multipliers of the debuffs. Take away the average-over-time aspect and you're just left with a declining sequence of the products of the multipliers. Which is more of a curiosity than helpful.

    Yes, but it would be interesting to make the sum of specific time intervals appear before the cycle average. It's not a curiosity, it's even a main difference in several sage/demon skills. It's a general debate on spike or consistancy. That is why I assimilated it to the sage/demon veno amp debate. For instance, you can consider a bigger amp in the 1 to 6 sec periode more important because of HF even if total amp is bigger over the whole spark in another combination.

    Anyway, it only really matters when taking in a 2nd+ genie skill or chaining skills. It's only in the case of a 2nd+ genie skill that taking in aps buffs would take it's sense. For instance, is EP > TM > EP right when previous runs out, more efficient or less efficient then TM > Frenzy > EP (that order is pretty much imposed as frenzy needs 75 energy to cast even if it doesn't always use 75 energy). With the 1 sec shared cooldowns and all the possible combinations with a certain vit genie, given cooldowns, and possible own skills in mind ofc. That is the kind of information I'd be looking for (well, I already "know" from practical experience in the case of my genie and build).

    Afterall, those are things you could do with your work. I just think it's a pitty you didn't go till there. But as said, your goal is different then mine. It's a suggestion more then a critisizm.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    hi
    I dont really understand this topic couse:
    if we speak about soloing, then pointless to max your dmg for 15 sec and for another 15 sec you dont do any dmg. We should speak about sustainable highest dps combos. I mean sustainable for at least 3-4 sparks... EP is absolut sustainable, but not so popular invest into genie gears. If you gave dex or magic genie and if you put 64 to dex 74 to mag and put all +4mag +4 dex gear then you vill have 80dex+90 mag at 61 LP. It grants for you 14sec EP + 2,8 regen. Ok not 15 sec couse you cannot time perfectly so you use ep when you start to hit. It lasts almost till spark lasts. Till 18 sec (3sec spark+15 sec hit) your genie regen 50 points.
    (ofc higher LP genie dont need max gears). So if you solo then you can use TM 2 times too.
    Here comes my second point. If you have a friend with this genie, then you can use high str genie for better TM and frenzy. If you are out from energy then he can use 2 times TM till you recover some energy. If you have another class in squad too (not only 2-3 sins), then things changed a little, couse they have debuffs that multiplies with yours. If they debuffs are sustainable till boss dies then anything changed. If he is a bm for example, then during hf the person with highstr genie must use TM.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kamukaze wrote: »
    I dont really understand this topic couse:
    if we speak about soloing, then pointless to max your dmg for 15 sec and for another 15 sec you dont do any extra dmg. We should speak about sustainable highest dps combos. I mean sustainable for at least 3-4 sparks...

    I agree that there are situations where you would search for sustainable amping. However, wanting to amplify your damage to the max on a short periode followed by just normal damage (that is why I added "extra" in your post, not doing any damage would make no sense) over sustainable damage is very common even when soloing.

    1st, sins are the only class that can make a combo with a 3spark and a 2spark big amping skill : powerdash or subsea (not counting apo use, nobody sane in mind would use apo that often). It can only be done every 60sec, so it can be way more beneficial to amp your subsea or powerdash a lot, at the cost of nearly using genie for the rest of the cooldown of inner harmony. Actually, this is part of the point I suggested to add. Your point about sustainable debuff/amp is very valid and might be preferable in some situations.

    2nd, most bosses are made to start doing " tricks". So you will aim to do most damage between those special attacks. On top of that, the start till 1st special attack is usually the longest periode. A sustainable amp will be wasted when running from circles, big aoe, being sealed/stunned, etc.

    On top of that is the very sin related issue of ep being the same kind of amp as subsea.

    In the end, there are a lot of other factors that come into account also. A 14 sec sustainable ep can turn into an important gain in bloodsuck for some, while for others or on other bosses that gain isn't an issue. Can't calculate everything, just got to leave space for common sense and personal preferences.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Yes i missed extra from my post sry for that but i hope you understood my point. I would say if you solo then it fight doesnt end in 2-3 spark unless if you are +12 r9 or something like that. Thats why i preferred sustainable options. If you are in squad then others can debuff and you can use frenzy for highest dmg, or i missed something?
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    kamukaze wrote: »
    Yes i missed extra from my post sry for that but i hope you understood my point. I would say if you solo then it fight doesnt end in 2-3 spark unless if you are +12 r9 or something like that. Thats why i preferred sustainable options. If you are in squad then others can debuff and you can use frenzy for highest dmg, or i missed something?

    You can't really expect other people to carry around genies with Tangling Mire and Extreme Poison on them. That, if anything, isn't a very sustainable way of thinking.

    And in reality, the most damage you do is going to happen in your first spark. That's because the first spark is when you'll most likely be using your Inner Harmony. Unlike Rising Dragon Strike, Inner Harmony has no channel, so no damage is lost there. Thus, regardless of whether you choose Subsea or Power Dash, your first spark is going to deal the most damage, followed by your second spark. Now, the third spark is where you damage goes down again, because both of your chi skills are on cooldown, so you can't re-use whichever skill you used on your first spark.

    And exactly because of that reality, there is actual importance in choosing what debuffs you use on your first spark. If your boss takes longer than 2 sparks, then you need to choose something that'll preferably allow you to use some debuff on the third spark. If your boss takes 1-2 sparks, then you can go all out.

    And there will obviously be people who have tons of debuffs. For example Skai has Frenzy, Tangling Mire and Extreme Poison, that's totally not something you can do more than once. As a Sage, I got Tangling Mire, Extreme Poison and Windshield. Some Sage sins probably have Tangling Mire, Extreme Poison, Windshield and Frenzy, too.

    The point is that when you have more debuffs than you can use, you want to know which combinations provide the best output, so you can choose the ones that can be rotated. For example, my genie has a 3.0 recovery with 165 energy, so I can do a rotation of Tangling Mire + Windshield, Extreme Poison+Windshield, Extreme Poison+Windshield.

    And as Empu said, some bosses start doing some really nasty stuff once their HP drops down. One example that comes to mind is Diabolic Shocktrooper, who starts debuffing with the bubble much more frequently after he drops below 50% hp. And that's where maximizing your damage output over a short period of time can make a world of difference.

    And as a side note, I did actually provide the tools for sustainable debuffing:
    1. I pointed out that Subsea and Power Dash have a 30s cooldown, so you have to rotate them
    2. I provided the formulae for counting damage for Frenzy, Subsea, Power Dash and Extreme Poison as standalone
    3. I provided the formulae for counting any of the pairs that do not overwrite each other

    Frenzy has a 75 energy cost, so with 2 skills, you'll need 2.5/s or more recovery to keep it in the loop, whereas Extreme Poison can be done 1.67/s. Tangling Mire is capped by its cooldown, which puts it at 1.6/s.

    @Empu: I'll have to see whether I can write up something about attack speed buffs, damage declination (how the multipliers diminish as your buffs run out) and possibly do something with the partitions.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Ok, now i got it. I farmed only in TT in 1-x and 2-x areas and dont have experience in 3-x (as solo)... so yes maybe a spike dmg for short time can help you more than constant lower. In FF if you dont get purge then shouldnt be problem, and if you have endgameish weapon it doesnt matter if boss dies under 25 (if you choose best amp combinations) or 30 sec (oviously not the best combo but still good enough) , maybe if you summary it then you lose about 1-2 min/round. At this point you can lose this time by not using shadow teleport like in Skai in his video.

    Maybe i'm wrong but i'm a team oriented person, so if i see i have lower dmg output than my teammate i offer him that doesnt waste genie energy to debuffs, i do that. Better focus to make his dmg higher and higher.


    PS/edit: i like numbers too and like to find the best methods in game, and i like to read your posts, but i thought it will be more significant result and thats why i suggested a second alternative in "different way" of amping. And sorry if you find my posts arrogant or stupid :D
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    I love your explanations Olbaze.
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I love your explanations Olbaze.

    Oh, half the time it takes me a good 20 seconds after I press the "Reply" button to go from "I know this stuff" to "WAIT DOES THAT EVEN MAKE ANY SENSE WTF DUDE!?b:angry"

    And let's be honest, this hasn't been much different.

    I recently took a quick peek at the mechanics in a certain Blizzard MMORPG and that had me going "Ok, these guys obviously did not want people pulling theories in their stuff."
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    @Kamukaze : Your point about sustainable amping wasn't stupid at all (and I didn't find it arrogant or something). These days, building up many debuffs to spike at start is more popular, wether it's in squad or solo, because targets die rather fast. Condensing as much damage as possible at start became popular for many reasons. It even took the head over the whole aps hype, which was initially a way to get sustainable higher damage.

    The math and formulae are just a tool. The way it's presented, Olbaze's formula is writen to get the best damage over 1 spark because that is the most popular. It can be used also to either be more precise to match all debuff/amp timings or to look for more sustainable damage increase. And there are also many factors that simply can't be put into figurized information. Math shouldn't be an excuse to leave those considerations of common sense out (unfortunately, it's what many do). Like you mentioned, in squads you will have someone with extreme poison and tangling mire in squad 95% of the time. You can't really put this in a formula, but it's a fact that will matter a lot for those who mainly squad while it won't matter at all for those who mainly solo. It's also an advantage of frenzy, which is on a mathematical point of view the least effective amplification of your damage due to it's cost and low gain in case of a jones blessing. All points that matter depending on each person, but that can't be included in a global formula designed to calculate a specific aspect.

    In the end, it's not really about gaining a few seconds on a boss. Except for nirvana, the portion of time from the global run used for boss killing has been majorly reduced already. The gain there has become rather insignificant. If we were after optimizing the time to run, for instance of a solo fcc/TT, we would be discussing vit vs mag on a holy path genie and how to most efficiently alternate holy path with own sprint buffs.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Great explanation as well Empu. There's also the enjoyment of seeing what combination of debuffs works best on a boss, and just having fun experimenting.

    Messing with mechanics is fun.
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!
  • zhenya004
    zhenya004 Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    lol this will take a while to digest but it does look good.. from the little i do understandb:surrender
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    @Olbaze : I'm surprised there are not more giving their critizism, corrections, suggestions, elaborations and/or additions. Math and figures are said to be a sin's joy after all. Maybe you should ask Skai's feedback on which ponies to add and for nice cuddly inviting collors ?

    @Skai : Well, induction or deduction are both good ways to find something out. It's often seen as "less scientific", but in both cases practical observations (as long as they can be done) prevail over the theory. But funnily, it's usually the observations that are put in doubt and not the theory.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    @Olbaze : I'm surprised there are not more giving their critizism, corrections, suggestions, elaborations and/or additions. Math and figures are said to be a sin's joy after all. Maybe you should ask Skai's feedback on which ponies to add and for nice cuddly inviting collors

    But since that's multiplication and EP is zero, we have Best Pony = 0. That's definitely not Scootaloo, no matter how you slice it.

    But honestly, there's quite a few things that I need to rework here. And if frankie ever fixes the LaTeX support for the wiki, I'll have to pretty much rewrite the whole thing.
    @Skai : Well, induction or deduction are both good ways to find something out. It's often seen as "less scientific", but in both cases practical observations (as long as they can be done) prevail over the theory. But funnily, it's usually the observations that are put in doubt and not the theory.

    Personally, I would prefer both. Practical observations tend to have a ****ton of biases, such as having either too good or too bad gear.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited September 2012
    Best pony is Octavia D:
    [SIGPIC]Octavia is best pony[/SIGPIC]
    Vicious's Brony. Brohoof!
    youtube.com/user/SkaiPW - Assassin PvE/PvP Videos!

Categories