question about DPS

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pureeee
pureeee Posts: 8 Arc User
edited August 2012 in General Discussion
i did really hard work to make my barb 5 aps for dps and soloing bosses and farm after being tiered of tanking ! and made this :
http://pwcalc.com/9bad6b0f00b8e785

but seems i totally waste my time and money and have to make sin !

i saw sin with gear around my range :
http://pwcalc.com/3be81e174db55480

during 1 demon spark for 5aps barb making 170-180k and sin made around 350k b:cry

i checked and noticed BM sux at DPS on bosses compare to sin with same range of gear too!

as i noticed if sin make +10 G13 weapon even with +10 G16 5 aps barb and BM can't reach sin !

am i right ?

why Sin make so much more dps ? just becuz of dex ?

what i must do with my barb that can hit atleast like weak 5 aps sin ?
Post edited by pureeee on

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  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    It is a combination of higher dex which gives a higher crit rate at endgame 30%+, and the main difference is the min stat requirements for gear. This allows a sin to get 450+ into dex which gives a 3x multiplier on damage. Add a higher crit rate and low stat requirements you get alot more damage
    Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz
  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    pureeee wrote: »
    as i noticed if sin make +10 G13 weapon even with +10 G16 5 aps barb and BM can't reach sin !

    am i right ?


    No I doubt very seriously a g13 sin can out dd a g16 aps barb/bm if the build is proper
    Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    2 words: Weapon Mastery. Not only is this a huge difference between an APS barb and an ASP sin, but forgot to apply this to the sin's calc.
    Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »
    No I doubt very seriously a g13 sin can out dd a g16 aps barb/bm if the build is proper
    You're comparing apples and oranges there. If you spend the same amount of money to make a g16/r9 sin, the barb wouldn't stand a chance.
    Even when comparing average g13 5aps sin to g16 fist barb, sin wins by a mile.
    Barb, unsparked DPS: 30,573
    Sin, unsparked DPS: 39,044 and that's not counting Wolf Emblem or Power Dash. Plus, the sin can spark more often.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    2 words: Weapon Mastery. Not only is this a huge difference between an APS barb and an ASP sin, but forgot to apply this to the sin's calc.

    You're comparing apples and oranges there. If you spend the same amount of money to make a g16/r9 sin, the barb wouldn't stand a chance.
    Even when comparing average g13 5aps sin to g16 fist barb, sin wins by a mile.
    Barb, unsparked DPS: 30,573
    Sin, unsparked DPS: 39,044 and that's not counting Wolf Emblem or Power Dash. Plus, the sin can spark more often.

    Typh, I am disappointed. Why would you commit such idiocies in such a short period of time?

    1. You used a very crappy G16 fist.
    2. You used a very favorable setup for the sin
    3. You compared unsparked DPS on builds that have different base attack rates
    4. Your barb build is ****ed up

    Not only that, but you also ****ed the sin DPS. I actually have no ****ing clue how you got that kind of number, as I'm getting 31,090 without Wolf Emblem.

    Also, even mentioning Power Dash while referencing exact numbers is one of the most **** things you could do.

    Please do me a favor and stop posting DPS figures and pwcalc links as basis for your claims if you're going to **** them up that badly. You know, you could just go "Yeah, not true" and wait for me to be bored enough to post the accurate stuff. Everyone knows I'll eventually do it.

    But to answer the question:
    1. Daggers have better weapon damage
    2. Daggers get their primary damage from Dexterity, which means they get higher crit
    3. Heavy Armor requires 2.5 str per level, claws require 2 dex per level, while claws only get damage from str. So you only get to use like 60-70% of your stats, whereas daggers get to use 80-90%.

    So it's actually not the class that is different, but the weapon.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Haila - Sanctuary
    Haila - Sanctuary Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Typh, I am disappointed. Why would you commit such idiocies in such a short period of time?

    So is it true a G13 +10 daggers wins from G16 +10 fists ? b:nosebleed
  • shotwhointhewhat
    shotwhointhewhat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So it's actually not the class that is different, but the weapon.

    So if daggers required 1.5 str per level would it balance dps out better? Or would it just mess things up?
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    shotwhointhewhat wrote: »
    So if daggers required 1.5 str per level would it balance dps out better? Or would it just mess things up?

    no it wouldnt, but they dont, so discussion is pointless.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So is it true a G13 +10 daggers wins from G16 +10 fists ? b:nosebleed

    Lol, no.

    Regular G16 +10 barb: 172,719 dps
    Standard G13 +10 sin: 157,220 dps

    Obvious notes for dummies:
    1. Sharding DoTs will favor the sin
    2. Removing Jones will favor the barb
    3. Refining higher than +10 will favor the barb
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Slegtst - Dreamweaver
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So is it true a G13 +10 daggers wins from G16 +10 fists ? b:nosebleed
    No, thats not true.
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    In evenly matched gear the sin will win purely for 2 reasons.

    Weapon mastery. Extra 75~90% weapon damage barb won't have for using fists.

    Stat points. Sins will have more points to put into Dex for higher damage and crit rate which boosts the dps range even higher for the sin in favor of the barb.

    Now in the case of the BM the dps variance is quite small.

    The BM will have the weapon mastery going for them and the weapons are the same, however, the sin still has the crit advantage in their court so to speak and can still out DPS the BM.
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    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In evenly matched gear the sin will win purely for 2 reasons.

    Weapon mastery. Extra 75~90% weapon damage barb won't have for using fists.

    Stat points. Sins will have more points to put into Dex for higher damage and crit rate which boosts the dps range even higher for the sin in favor of the barb.

    Now in the case of the BM the dps variance is quite small.

    The BM will have the weapon mastery going for them and the weapons are the same, however, the sin still has the crit advantage in their court so to speak and can still out DPS the BM.

    If we're being fair and comparing unbuffed stats, then the weapon mastery argument is actually moot due to barbs having Poison Fang and Strength of Titans. At Demon, those add to +90%.

    But yes, BMs and Barbs get the disadvantage of needing 2 dex/level for claws.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If we're being fair and comparing unbuffed stats, then the weapon mastery argument is actually moot due to barbs having Poison Fang and Strength of Titans. At Demon, those add to +90%.

    But yes, BMs and Barbs get the disadvantage of needing 2 dex/level for claws.

    I'll say using unbuffed stats isn't exactly a realistic "fairness" because no one runs instances requiring large amounts of DPS unbuffed if they can help it. But otherwise yes the weapon mastery doesn't matter if both are using self buffs.

    Sin still wins though on damage and crit favors due to the having dex as their output damage factor instead of str. Followed by BM's and then Barbs and then lastly Archers.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'll say using unbuffed stats isn't exactly a realistic "fairness" because no one runs instances requiring large amounts of DPS unbuffed if they can help it. But otherwise yes the weapon mastery doesn't matter if both are using self buffs.

    I dunno, I just pop a Blinking Poultice or get a faction base buff.

    If I'm in a squad, even that is often meaningless.

    And really, a barb would have like 300 str, sin would have 400 dex. Add to those the respective buffs and you're looking at 3.9 for barb and 4.82 for sin.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver
    _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 753 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »
    No I doubt very seriously a g13 sin can out dd a g16 aps barb/bm if the build is proper

    No he wont, TESTED.

    Pure Dex Sin:
    Barrier Thorn - Nirvana +10.(G13)
    Interval Between Hits -0.1 seconds
    HP: +245
    Critical Hit Rate +1%
    1x Garnet gem

    VS

    BM (With Demon Fist Mastery)
    Dance of Goddess - Reality.+10(G15)
    Interval Between Hits -0.05 seconds
    Vitality +19
    Atk. Level +20
    1x Garnet Gem

    Sin could not take agro at any point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I Miss the old days of PWIb:surrender
  • supertroyman1
    supertroyman1 Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    equally geared daggers do out damage claws on both barbs and fists for the reason of dex, crit rate, and base weapon dmg. sin can very easily be called the highest single target dd in the game. that one perspective is why most ppl have one. bms and especially barbs win in the catagory of hp and aoe capailitys.

    a claw barb dosnt need to be able to out dd sins. the main reason for being a claw barb is to increase soloing capability and contribute more to the total squad dmg
  • Slegtst - Dreamweaver
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    No he wont, TESTED.

    Pure Dex Sin:
    Barrier Thorn - Nirvana +10.(G13)
    Interval Between Hits -0.1 seconds
    HP: +245
    Critical Hit Rate +1%
    1x Garnet gem

    VS

    BM (With Demon Fist Mastery)
    Dance of Goddess - Reality.+10(G15)
    Interval Between Hits -0.05 seconds
    Vitality +19
    Atk. Level +20
    1x Garnet Gem

    Sin could not take agro at any point.
    How are you [and the sin] on DOT's or attack level in general?
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Like already said, main reason is that daggers are a dex related weapon. A sin puts all in dex, increasing their weapon multiplier and their crit rate and accuracy (often left out but does have an impact). Bm/barb has to devide over str for multiplier and dex for crit/accuracy, to match all their gear requirements.

    With that, there are some other reasons like wolf emblem and daggers having higher base damage (the aps difference being pretty insignificant, since both can reach the max aps).
    _Nerox_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    No he wont, TESTED.

    I tested the contrary with G15 fists actually. But I guess things like att lvl and wolf emblem/power dash also come into the picture there.
  • purewis
    purewis Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    Slegtst - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    No, thats not true.

    u counting dmg like 5xmax dmg ?

    difrrence between min and max atk-power not making any diffrent ?
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    If you're going to compare DPS of classes, at least cut out common factors like shards and rings. "Was the sin DoT build"...well that makes as much sense as asking "was so and so wearing Jone's Bless." Nothing to stop any class from using DoT shards or certain rings.

    On the other hand, if a class' APS build allows certain equipment to be equipped while still being able to achieve 5.0, that could be placed into consideration.

    Like this. (not for Sages...you mad? :3)

    Although if another class is willing to roll recast R8 for -int, they might be able to have some combination that give them an advantage in DPS as well...but that's soooo much work for faster farming...b:bored
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  • Slegtst - Dreamweaver
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited August 2012
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    purewis wrote: »
    u counting dmg like 5xmax dmg ?

    difrrence between min and max atk-power not making any diffrent ?
    I based it on duo nirvy with a G13+10 sin and ending up being the tank.

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