Barb Or Bm :o

Tcatalin - Dreamweaver · June 2012

Hey guys ... i wish u could answer fast...i want to know what would u choose between
aps bm or aps barb?
can u tell me what is an aps barb good at and a aps bm good at? ...would rlly help me
to decide..ty b:shocked

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2012

I tend to use my barb for soloing, my bm for squad things like nirvana or 3-3 runs.

Barbs have a larger hp pool so you can tank things earlier. They have the ability to "stall" in ohsht situations by invoking, standing and 5 apsing, to recover full hp and sparks, and then continue on. Barbs are also nice when soloing instances because they run through instances quicker and can do large pulls easier, invoke, kill the magic mobs while invoke is still active and then trip spark and tank the phys mobs. If demon, a barb can easily give himself a 1min 5% crit increase, or a short 15% crit increase from BO. They also have an easy time accuracy glitching by devouring in tiger form, standing and triple sparking, then apsing with 50% pdef reduction on the boss and 100% accuracy. After each spark for only 20 chi they can reduce the pdef 35% and it lasts most their spark. So the big hp pool, the constant pdef reduction on bosses for more paint heals, the run speed and ease of clearing mobs make barbs my preferred soloer.

BMs have great support skills and honestly get about 5% more damage raw before debuffs than barbs. They really shine in squad because they can trip spark + HF for the squad, making some difficult bosses gone before they can cause troubles. If they don't have great gear they can HF + GS for a squad. I'm a G15 Revenge BM and out DD most sins, and come roughly close to some R9 sins in DD, but if I have 3 good DDs in a squad I'm not gonna bother with my trip spark I'll just be support for their dd.

Night$aber - Dreamweaver · June 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I tend to use my barb for soloing, my bm for squad things like nirvana or 3-3 runs.

Barbs have a larger hp pool so you can tank things earlier. They have the ability to "stall" in ohsht situations by invoking, standing and 5 apsing, to recover full hp and sparks, and then continue on. Barbs are also nice when soloing instances because they run through instances quicker and can do large pulls easier, invoke, kill the magic mobs while invoke is still active and then trip spark and tank the phys mobs. If demon, a barb can easily give himself a 1min 5% crit increase, or a short 15% crit increase from BO. They also have an easy time accuracy glitching by devouring in tiger form, standing and triple sparking, then apsing with 50% pdef reduction on the boss and 100% accuracy. After each spark for only 20 chi they can reduce the pdef 35% and it lasts most their spark. So the big hp pool, the constant pdef reduction on bosses for more paint heals, the run speed and ease of clearing mobs make barbs my preferred soloer.

BMs have great support skills and honestly get about 5% more damage raw before debuffs than barbs. They really shine in squad because they can trip spark + HF for the squad, making some difficult bosses gone before they can cause troubles. If they don't have great gear they can HF + GS for a squad. I'm a G15 Revenge BM and out DD most sins, and come roughly close to some R9 sins in DD, but if I have 3 good DDs in a squad I'm not gonna bother with my trip spark I'll just be support for their dd.

Well,firstly it's indeed true that barbs have higher hp,but bms also have higher defense because of their own buff and marrows.For instance,with same gear and cleric+own buffs,(an example) a bm would have 18k pdef,while a barb would have about 9-10k.
The invoke idea is true but usually when ur in ohsht situations you have to go tiger and invoke anyway,while being sure you have enough chi for it so might not work all the time.For pulling mobs invoke is good yeah,but using AD and stunning then hf and killing would work too,tho it's more risky than barb's invoke so i agree on that one.
The constant pdef reduction is also nice,but bms have hf,gs and also dragonbane at the beginning of the boss,so i'd say that kinda makes up ,also thinking at the 5% more raw dmg.
Also,given barb can get bm buff and vice versa,bm gets just about 500 hp less than a barb with same gear,while maintaing their 5% raw dmg+the dmg from barb's buff and still having like 5k more pdef (using that 18k vs 9-10k pdef example),so fully buffed bm since to have the edge.
Anyway i like both xD.

Edit:Solid Shield is also a nice thing to mention about aps barbs.

thumbs · June 2012

Night$aber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well,firstly it's indeed true that barbs have higher hp,but bms also have higher defense because of their own buff and marrows.

True Form, Shape Shifting Intensity. Marrows come at a sacrifice to alternate defenses and that aint gonna help much on bosses like Snakefist.

The invoke idea is true but usually when ur in ohsht situations you have to go tiger and invoke anyway,while being sure you have enough chi for it so might not work all the time.

Frighten, Sage Roar for reducing matk, Alacrity to cancel matk, Devour to reduce atk level.

So far for me; barb is funner to play.

Night$aber - Dreamweaver · June 2012

Those are basically only in tiger form and as an aps barb i doubt you'll go to tiger form and spam those skills every 15 seconds,though yeah i agree that on bosses like snakefist marrows wont help that much,unless u spark resist magic attacks.
PS:I actually find barb kind of funner to play,but regular barb not the aps one.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City · June 2012

Night$aber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Those are basically only in tiger form and as an aps barb i doubt you'll go to tiger form and spam those skills every 15 seconds,though yeah i agree that on bosses like snakefist marrows wont help that much,unless u spark resist magic attacks.
PS:I actually find barb kind of funner to play,but regular barb not the aps one.

then maybe you should play STR barb as we do not need claw ****

Shield - Raging Tide · June 2012

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

then maybe you should play STR barb as we do not need claw ****

wuts ur base str/vit? and whats your phy dmg? oh n r u a r9? nivry barb?

Night$aber - Dreamweaver · June 2012

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

then maybe you should play STR barb as we do not need claw ****

Besides i have no plan on playing a barb at the moment:
Fact 1:Isn't a STR barb's basic idea damage?If so,a claw barb can highly out DD that STR barb with exactly same hp if you go with a non vit build.
Fact 2:STR barb is basically worse than a vit barb in pve (really,a bit higher damage wont heal enough from bloodpaint and hp would do better,also a bit higher damage won't help in keeping aggro) and in pvp too (armageddon+charms ftw ;o).

Oh and as a matter of fact,maybe you should try that 'claw ****' and see how well it works,unless of course,you're a R9 barb as Shield said.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2012

Night$aber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Besides i have no plan on playing a barb at the moment:
Fact 1:Isn't a STR barb's basic idea damage?If so,a claw barb can highly out DD that STR barb with exactly same hp if you go with a non vit build.
Fact 2:STR barb is basically worse than a vit barb in pve (really,a bit higher damage wont heal enough from bloodpaint and hp would do better,also a bit higher damage won't help in keeping aggro) and in pvp too (armageddon+charms ftw ;o).

Oh and as a matter of fact,maybe you should try that 'claw ****' and see how well it works,unless of course,you're a R9 barb as Shield said.

I actually support the strength barb build for 1v1 pvp. For group pvp I support vit build. For PvE I think claw build is the best. In pvp even blademaster's don't use claws for much more than chi building and neither should barbs, however pulling out claws after a stun/OI is a mean trick and effective way to kill your opponents. The basic idea of endgame barb pk is still get your opponent to about 60% hp and try to jump their charm with big hits and strength barbs are the best build for that, where as vit builds lack finishing power for 1v1 pk and the same can almost be said about claw barbs against +10-+12 builds, though they're much more likely to crit/zerk/crit+zerk when using axes.

And Ghoul is the barb forum jester. He is in fact R9 and brags about how much money he's spent power leveling his barb but comes to forums to show how little he knows about the class or actually playing the game. Most of us are waiting for him to finally update his build and try claws, swallow his words and ignorance, and become an avatar for clawbarbs.

Deago - Lost City · June 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I actually support the strength barb build for 1v1 pvp. For group pvp I support vit build. For PvE I think claw build is the best. In pvp even blademaster's don't use claws for much more than chi building and neither should barbs, however pulling out claws after a stun/OI is a mean trick and effective way to kill your opponents. The basic idea of endgame barb pk is still get your opponent to about 60% hp and try to jump their charm with big hits and strength barbs are the best build for that, where as vit builds lack finishing power for 1v1 pk and the same can almost be said about claw barbs against +10-+12 builds, though they're much more likely to crit/zerk/crit+zerk when using axes.

And Ghoul is the barb forum jester. He is in fact R9 and brags about how much money he's spent power leveling his barb but comes to forums to show how little he knows about the class or actually playing the game. Most of us are waiting for him to finally update his build and try claws, swallow his words and ignorance, and become an avatar for clawbarbs.

I would rather have Ghoul stay with his ugly hammers then become a fail claw barb. It takes one to learn and know the class not because you have R9 or power leveled, but its the fact that leveling the hard way figuring out the best combo, how to hold and sustain aggro on ourselves. If he became claw he wouldnt be an avatar but merely a joke, seeing as hes on LC and talks so much smack but never seems to back it up. That and I believe that someone should know their class before trying to acquire a whole new way of playing it.

Blood_Panda - Raging Tide · June 2012

Claw barb has always been more useful because of the damage/health buff we bring to the table.

The only complain i have as a claw barb is that we cannot utilize our sexy skills in tiger form or using a claw as a human form.

If that doesn't bother you.. claw barb is good.
Else bm are better.

Dragoneast - Sanctuary · June 2012

Im a pure hp barb non aps, and i think its fun, cause i can actually use all my skills whenever i want, and pas barbs will end up with less hp and more likely LA, so u gonan have a hard time in delta sometimes.

Empu - Sanctuary · June 2012

Tcatalin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hey guys ... i wish u could answer fast...i want to know what would u choose between
aps bm or aps barb?
can u tell me what is an aps barb good at and a aps bm good at? ...would rlly help me
to decide..ty b:shocked

Probably biaised opinion, but after trying aps barb I was really dissapointed. I also got a bm, and restatted my barb back to vit. I would choose the aps bm over the aps barb anytime, wether it would be in my squad or to play myself. I found that :
- Self-buffed, the bm does way better soloing. Bell + mag (or sometimes phys) marrow is better then hp buff from my experience.
- Unless you got amazing fists while squadding with ppl who have more average gear, you won't be main DD in either case. Bm with hf is more usefull then a barb that only has a phys def debuff that is rather common (venos and clerics have phys def debuff also, and sometimes run into ppl with that proc on weapon).
- Mag marrow is very important soloing imo.
- The fact you got to change weapon and sometimes even form for skills was very annoying. All bms fast-reaction skills are useable with any weapon.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm a G15 Revenge BM and out DD most sins, and come roughly close to some R9 sins in DD, but if I have 3 good DDs in a squad I'm not gonna bother with my trip spark I'll just be support for their dd.

Must be very roughly b:chuckle My +11 G15 fists sparked (5 aps) don't even get aggro of my sin just poking unsparked.

Seriously, fists/claws don't outdamage daggers unless the gear quality of the bm/barb is way higher then that of the sin. I know there are bm/barbs who like to believe so, but I would like to see it for real on a boss like 99 key boss (1 that can't be killed in a few sec).

Unless "most sins" = r8 +3~5 and "some r9 sins" = just got r9, but didn't have a chance to get over +3~5 yet ?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2012

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unless "most sins" = r8 +3~5 and "some r9 sins" = just got r9, but didn't have a chance to get over +3~5 yet ?

Nah, 5 aps +10 G13 or 4 aps R8+10. Once you throw R9 or G15 in the mix they definitely win. By my calcs I do about 169k dps, R8 sin does 162k and G13 (2 soc with G11 garnets) does 170k. That's similar damage before the sin's are using wolf emblem and the BM is using Dragon's Bane or demon Diamond Sutra.

It does take better gear for BM's/Barbs to compete with Sins. For instance I'm comparing a sin with R8 or first cast Nirvana to a BM with G15 Nirvana. If the Sin has G16/R9 it'll take a BM/Barb with G16 to be compete with them, and if the sin has G16/R9r2/R9t3 then there is very little a barb or bm can do to compete with them. Not to mention the tendency for sins to shard DoT and Barbs to shard defensively.

Empu - Sanctuary · June 2012

@ Saku : You know my aversion for theoretical figures. My bm is tanking a lot more in excel then I've ever seen him do in game. It's just not realistic. I got +11 G15 fists (5 aps and max str), and I don't out-damage G13+10 sins. I've done enough 99 key bosses to be 100% sure about that even if you come up with figures that show otherwise.

From what I've seen, bm with G16 claws is close in damage output to a 5 aps sin with G13 daggers (bot +10 and sharded defensively). Without grabbing my calculator, it was really obvious in nirvana on 99 key boss. If just spark+attack, the bm was tanking. If he cast GS, the sin was tanking.

I really don't get why so many fist/claw users try to convince themselves they will outdamage a sin with roughly comparable gear. I've yet to see it happen.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2012

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

@ Saku : You know my aversion for theoretical figures. My bm is tanking a lot more in excel then I've ever seen him do in game. It's just not realistic. I got +11 G15 fists (5 aps and max str), and I don't out-damage G13+10 sins. I've done enough 99 key bosses to be 100% sure about that even if you come up with figures that show otherwise.

From what I've seen, bm with G16 claws is close in damage output to a 5 aps sin with G13 daggers (bot +10 and sharded defensively). Without grabbing my calculator, it was really obvious in nirvana on 99 key boss. If just spark+attack, the bm was tanking. If he cast GS, the sin was tanking.

I really don't get why so many fist/claw users try to convince themselves they will outdamage a sin with roughly comparable gear. I've yet to see it happen.

You're arguing a completely different issue of whether a bm should be amping or spark spamming. They should be amping.

And I'm not stating comparable gear, I'm stating the BM can out DD a sin if the BM has better gear. Most sins don't have great gear, just R8 or G13. I'm also talking in a damage race like spark spam or comparing solo times on a boss. But in a squad the sin is usually using EP and frenzy on their spark I'm usually combining Tangling Mire and HF for the sins spark, or Mire and GS on a non ampable boss. The sin is getting 2 seconds more attack than my BM while frenzied, mired, and HF or GS'd so of course in actual squadwork he'll get aggro because I'm not attacking as much as I can and I'm amping his damage. Alot of times I'm even stopping to use demon bell to give him more pdef to heal up.

But in the situations were a Sin can't tank or shouldn't tank (say the 6k sins in BH Metal) I don't HF. I spark spam and Mire my own spark so I keep aggro and they don't die.

Deago - Lost City · June 2012

Dragoneast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Im a pure hp barb non aps, and i think its fun, cause i can actually use all my skills whenever i want, and pas barbs will end up with less hp and more likely LA, so u gonan have a hard time in delta sometimes.

Most barbs that turn aps realize that they have to make up in the hp they lost with better refines and shards other wise they will be squishy. And yet i have to see a claw barb that went LA, I do believe that we have enough str/dex to wear HA

Subtraction - Harshlands · June 2012

barbs are sexier. b:cute

Empu - Sanctuary · June 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I'm not stating comparable gear, I'm stating the BM can out DD a sin if the BM has better gear. Most sins don't have great gear, just R8 or G13. I'm also talking in a damage race like spark spam or comparing solo times on a boss.

Well, those "most sins" outdamage my bm (again, +11 G15 fists and 5 aps even using demon sutra for the crit). What else is a non-ample boss when you have a cleric/veno/barb in squad for physical debuff, then a damage race ?

But w/e. Either G15 claws massively outdamage G15 fists, or you're a way more pro bm then me when it comes to spark>poke b:laugh

Off-topic, but I actually got to the point where I'm considering giving up 5 aps for more aoe DD power since I'm just a HF ho anyway and 2 aps'ish is more then enough for that. I simply never ever tank bosses as bm even with high-end fists.

enlil · July 2012

Dragoneast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Im a pure hp barb non aps, and i think its fun, cause i can actually use all my skills whenever i want, and pas barbs will end up with less hp and more likely LA, so u gonan have a hard time in delta sometimes.

The question is not barb, ,but rather 5aps barb or 5aps bm.. I have vit barb and 5aps barb.. and 5 aps bm 2 of them..

Now in reality for solo play.. just vit barb is lame. 5aps its nothing to switch weapons and activate skills.. You can't use all your skills all the time anyway. When you stand use your poleaxe for BO then fist,, rinse and repeat.. 60% crit and things dissapear fast.

Also the new skills with claw barbs make them rip. Between all my aps toons the funnest to play for me is the claw barb. mine has 260 dex 342 str and only has about 2000hp less than my vit build. its all in the gear and paly style.. they play different.

if you only have a barb .. then don't comment cause you really don't know. If you have both and you gear them both.. you will find yourself with a different opinion.

now for the BM. Lots of stuff it could not do solo without barb buff.. same for the sin. So for just tooling around and having fun aps barb is funnest.. my sin is very close second.. my bm is third.

cost wise.. sin is most expensive to build, bm and barb the same and less.

blood rush new skill.. triggers when hit hard. very nice and i don't want more pdef as i want it to trigger. omfg.. i hit 20k - 50k per swing with it. very nice.

check out that AA barb.. that looks fun.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City · August 2012

Shield - Raging Tide wrote: »

wuts ur base str/vit? and whats your phy dmg? oh n r u a r9? nivry barb?

its un idea that can be used in kitty mode while tanking and why fat much better in pvp
cos claw barb aps is just plain dumb.

i removed my r9 and right now have sht gear slowly rebuilding myself as a true str barb
no i am not worse then a vit barb as vit barb cant kill sht i cant when i serk crith

at 581 str and soon will have 690 working to get the 600+ str

in a p server my bro tell me we can reach 1000 str point i dont know in pwi as i yet to reach 600

i have two skill in demon form in human who never miss in pk so acc is no issue

your idead of claw is ur own not mine

if dev wanted kitty in claw they give us claw skill or at the least claw mastery

_Ghoul_ - Lost City · August 2012

diego what have my build to do with being able to play as a barb in pve

go show ur own conviction elsewhere or e-pen elsewhere

i alredy removed my r9 so take away the statement of being a r9 barb as i am playing
my own way of barb with axes and axes alone.

even with my current sht gear i can do all thing in pve and i dont need ur missguided convictions of how you want UR own barb to be played

now bb and talk to me when ur matured a bit or have all the r9 gear u said you was working on i would care less.

AssVioIator - Harshlands · August 2012

Just go barb

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · August 2012

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

some monkey language

Double-post and off topic necro to trash talk someone about their e-peen while bragging about your own e-peen in a post no one can understand.

On the brightside you +1'd your post count and you being on forums probably meant a squad in game was saved from your "services".

_Ghoul_ - Lost City · August 2012

from my service ur funy

ooh look need tank>barb bh abba pm me last spot

lf barb bh ws last spot pm me

lf full gv need tank>barb pm me last spot

ya lol ooh and look non cares for bm they have bm alredy on the dd department bb troll bm not my foult your class is not wanted as much i have fun with mineb:bye

Deago - Lost City · August 2012

nero

And to be honest i would rather a bm in my squad then an egotistic barb who really has no idea on what hes talking about

LaYsDiL - Harshlands · August 2012

Well here in harshlands aps barbs are fail..roll a bm or sin for aps bms have fist misery and sins have dagger misery..if u make a barb aps ur going to lose like 3k pdef and like 3-5k hp barbs are good for pvp and meatshields/aoes so in my option leave barbs for what they are ment for and if u think its all about aps then ur wrong this game doesnt depend on aps as much as it used to

Mr_Buffs - Dreamweaver · September 2012

just my thoughts...

APS barb is for those whom already have a lvl100+ barb to restat and don't feel like lvling a BM

no lvl100+ barb and want an APS character?...roll sin or BM

BM vs sin:

A BM takes hits way better than a sin, but does less damage. A BM is also more fun for things like Delta/FC/etc with mass mobs since they have more aoe skills than any other class...and weapon versatility. A BM is the easiest character to find a squad for as well.

The downfall is you need BP from another sin.

A sin has the ability to stealth farm instances for drops (not talking about Nirvy...more like FB51/89/99 caves), thus faster farming runs. They also don't need to get BP from another character...ofc.

Now lets HOPE the agro skills on a barb are increased so barbs can be better barbs, like the old days, once again!!

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · September 2012

edit: made a thread.

Barb Or Bm :o

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