Why nobody wants them?

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

I prefer a reliable hit vers "oh It may zerk crit" Currently my unrefined G16's hit as hard as the g15's +10 they use to be without zerk and are just a tad lower than my +11 R8's.

Oh KawaiiJen did you make a char on RT's? I keep seeing a KawaiiLen and figuring its you

No the name Kawaii is Japanese for cute or beloved, so people using that in their name is quite common. At one point there were like 6-7 Kawaiis running around our server. (A few claiming to be me -_-)

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not a serious 1 vs 1 PKer (only thing I find fun anymore is TW) but I've heard many claim that Sage CoD R9 Sins who know what they doing to be one of the most frightening classes to face one on one. And that class as you know is purely DPH. Anyway... non-zerk sins are little more than an annoyance to my R9 Seeker. They just can't wittle down my HP quick enough to beat my charm without demon sparking first. And I'm sure other HA classes such as Barbs and well geared BMs can say the same thing. And I can't imagine it being that much different with the G16 daggers whose extra attack levels will also be completely cancelled out... unless of course the Sin is lucky enough to roll 2 x int. on the daggers but even then... they can't kill me quick enough to stop me stomping their squishy butts. b:laugh

Zerk crit +12 damage on the other hand ?

Well to put it simply I can't afford to fool around when facing one of those. b:chuckle



Well yes I tend to agree about Sins being not really that needed in TW. But if a faction has enough of them they can suppress your Clerics to the point that it will leave your cata squad vulnerable to other casters.

On your first note. The G16 daggers not only give 10 more attack levels, but they refine 2 grades higher AND their base damage is increased. So the actual DPS increase can be as high as about 20% more then r9 before zerk crits and even higher compared to G15 Nirvana. Once your build is completely done, most sin pretty much can't kill you no matter your class by pure dps unless they triple spark as well. I've played around against a Full R9 Sage CoD sin. Yea he hits hard, but due to the lack of good combination skills they still fall short of getting a killing blow before your charm cooldown is up without getting at least 1-2 zerk crits in.


And if there are that many sins around trying to kill the clerics that means there is less support and DD classes around for the front lines / cata squad. And that just has doomed to fail written all over it.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No the name Kawaii is Japanese for cute or beloved, so people using that in their name is quite common. At one point there were like 6-7 Kawaiis running around our server. (A few claiming to be me -_-)



On your first note. The G16 daggers not only give 10 more attack levels, but they refine 2 grades higher AND their base damage is increased. So the actual DPS increase can be as high as about 20% more then r9 before zerk crits and even higher compared to G15 Nirvana. Once your build is completely done, most sin pretty much can't kill you no matter your class by pure dps unless they triple spark as well.

Which sort of comes back to my original point. At "end game" when everyone is R9 or more recently... full 3rd cast Nirvana armor with it's even higher Phys defense stats than R9... pure DPS will no longer cut it. Only thing that gives Sin a chance is zerk crit. And yes... one of those landing is a bit of a gamble but as I pointed out in my first post... Sins having high aps (and extremely high crit rate) increases the odds considerably compared to a melee skill spammer or axe BM trying to land a zerk crit.

Because of the above it's actually theoretically possible (and I suspect common enough) for a Sin to pull off a chain of 2-3 zerk crits in one attack.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In PVP many players are now so OP geared that Sins now find themselves fighting opponents whose defense levels nearly or (example, R9 Seekers and Psychics) completely cancels out their attack levels. If fighting someone like that, good luck with your G16 daggers then. b:bye

Hey look I said Wizzies archers and clerics, you could throw mystics in there too but they usually aren't towards the back. My sin 1 shots with a non crit out of stealth any of those with less than 8k hp give me a crit and I can take down stronger peeps and I only have g13 daggs lol. Give me r9 or g16 dags I'll have over 140 attack lvls (I'm at 105 now). So how about you read what I post next time.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bramble > sin Sorry :P

When 1 shotting bramble does nothing but tick my charm before i stealth. Only time bramble bothers me in tw on my sin is against barbs, bms and seekers since they tend to have high p def and high hp. But I'm usually not stupid enough to fight them lol. Most of the time my bow can purge them first anyway.

LOL i tought it was only me thinking they are a better choice

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I spoke about a belt ijs not a neck.... unless on your server you can make belt with neck. xD

But ye about the price i had something else in mind, yea R9 is cheapest.

You know how much the 5 def lvl give more on survivability vs the 23 attack lvl on attack?

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=700&u=15458938

The red arrow are the damage index and the green arrows are survival index.

Sorry but as cleric i'll take the 91.9k survival more than the 6k attack, but ye i must be a fail cleric to think to my survivability before my attack. :S


Edit: i forgot to say that the Ss is the exact same gears (R9) just changed the belt.

Eh I'd g16 a JR belt for cheaper than a warsong belt, but then you do lose the lovely extra hp :<

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eh I'd g16 a JR belt for cheaper than a warsong belt, but then you do lose the lovely extra hp :<

Possible i don't know the exact stats of JR belt, i just wanted to show that people doesn't use the best for their class, as i show a 91.9k survival more is better than 6k attack for a cleric.

I'm too lazy to make a pwcalc with JR belt to see if it's better, but i think JR just give attack not def right? So in that way i think R9 belt would be better than JR for a cleric.

Bah, about time an actual assassin chips in on this forum post.

5aps vs 5aps.
g15+gof vs g16+40attack lvl

Analysis:

-Average dps of g16 should be 20% more.
-pve, g16 is superior; no loss of hp, and more dps
-pvp, g16 is superior: consider that those who get one shot from zerk crits are easy to kill even if you don't get the zerk crit. The people who actually are difficult for an assassin to kill, namely, the r9 +12 jades characters, will very very very rarely die from a zerk crit, even if its a triple sparked one. Exception might be a sage sin, but most are demons with an aps build, and this is what I am interested in. With gear this good, dps is far more important than dph. Instead of the typical hit-hit-hit-hit dead person, its more like stun-hit 4 seconds-tackling slash-throatcut-hit 3 seconds-(whatever). A stun lock. Dps >>> dph, thus g16 > g15

4aps vs 5aps.
r9+30attack lvl+gof vs g16+40 attack lvl

Analysis:

-The increase from 4aps to 5aps is 25% increase in damage
-gof is 20% proc rate, thus 20% more dps
-Taken together then; 40-30 attack lvls = 10% to g16; 25% - 20% = 5% to g16; thus g16 should do 15% more dps on average than r9
-pve, g16 is superior on bosses that don't move for dps and lack of a hp loss due to zerks. For non-moving mobs, g16 is superior; for mobs that move, r9 has the +2 range that can make it far easier and swifter to kill mobs, since you can teleport to a mob, and even if it moves, it'll be inside your attack range
-pvp, g16 wins for dps, but r9 still has the all-important +2 range. With this add on a weapon, a sin can teleport to somebody and hit them several times before they move out of range, a move impossible for a g15 or g16 assassin. Furthermore, skills such as rib strike and deep sting and throatcut are increased to 4.5 meter range; if two sins run at each other with comparable lag, the r9 sin gets his spell off just a little bit sooner. If a sin ports to a target and tries using deep sting, the g15/g16 sin will usually not get it off, because the target only has to run more than 2.5 meters to be out of range, instead of 4.5 meter range for r9. Furthermore, r9 has nearly as many attack lvls as g16, thus the dph potential is far greater than either g15 or g16. In conclusion, r9 probably still holds an edge in pk, though both are quite a bit better than g15.

Cheers,

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bah, about time an actual assassin chips in on this forum post.

stuff

but r9 still has the all-important +2 range.

Waits for one to post, since you don't seem to know the possible adds on T3 daggers and want to talk about range

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34779

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I spoke about a belt ijs not a neck.... unless on your server you can make belt with neck. xD

But ye about the price i had something else in mind, yea R9 is cheapest.

You know how much the 5 def lvl give more on survivability vs the 23 attack lvl on attack?

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=700&u=15458938

The red arrow are the damage index and the green arrows are survival index.

Sorry but as cleric i'll take the 91.9k survival more than the 6k attack, but ye i must be a fail cleric to think to my survivability before my attack. :S


Edit: i forgot to say that the Ss is the exact same gears (R9) just changed the belt.

Allow me to chip in. The problem with always going for defense is as others have stated; you are a meat shield with fangs made of paper. Even the least sin won't be afraid to attack you. I don't know how the heck that attack # is formulated, but a cleric that hits 20% harder is rather more fearsome to a potential attacker; 40k, 20% more aught to be at least 48k. Whatever. When a sin attacks my cleric in pk, they know darn well that if they mess up, my cleric can one shot their *** with relative ease. Instead of a warsong belt, I'm rather more in favor of spending the money instead on a physical ring in place of a 2nd magic one. Same reasoning as to why not ditch the r9 ring: it adds a huge amount of damage, thus making cleric more dangerous to attack. Maybe a cleric with physical ornaments takes a few seconds longer to kill, but unless you think you can convert those extra seconds of survivability into ensuring your attacker dies, then its for naught. There is a heavy armor cleric on DW, and he's decidedly more difficult to kill than a regular cleric, but without serious damage, I can take many risks attacking this cleric and expect to survive quite well, thus I have far more opportunities to kill.

In TW, I used to be the cleric who only ever healed, and that was well and good till the enemy realized I was the toughest cleric to kill in my faction, and more ppl targeted me. I realized that often the best way to ensure that a sin attacking me doesn't stealth and come back a moment later to finish the job, is to make sure that particular sin is dead. This I can actually accomplish when I hit hard, which the r9 belt is necessary for.

Ha, if you really want to survive, do what I did long ago and get a purify r8 reforge weapon, or if your *** is made of gold, get r9 3rd cast, its so very worth it.

Cheers,

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah, why not, the odds are exactly, 0.05*0.09*0.09, or 0.00405; aka 1/250 chance of getting this set of stats. At roughly, lets say we are very frugal, 5mil a roll, you could spend as much as r9 daggers to get this exact set of ads. Not particularly convinced its worth the effort.

Dude, it's 0.000405, not 0.00405, so it's actually 1:2,470.

Of course, the range is going to be a convenient thing, but it's less relevant to Assassins, considering that we got two teles and two running skills. And you can still start your attack with a normal attack, which would cause your character to move into range for those, then activate a skill before your character starts normal attacking.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And I highly disagree with you, having used both daggers extensively in pk and pve; the range is of the utmost importance. The time lag having to run a bit closer can make all the difference in the world.

Not to mention being able to attack most melee classes/mobs outside of their own melee range when they are immobilized with Tackling Slash.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Sorry but as cleric i'll take the 91.9k survival more than the 6k attack, but ye i must be a fail cleric to think to my survivability before my attack. :S

LOL. 91k survival index or even your 123k survival buffed index might sound like a lot. But lets face it... at +12 (do you have it at +12) that is about 10% extra p.def buffed. To buy and combine 9 warsong and refine it to +12 you are probably looking at around 2x the cost of r9. And lets face it... that extra p.def at +12 is not going to save you from an archer in TW.

It is your right to op for defense over offense... but to call people stupid because they did not go your route just show that yourself is an idiot.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Which mean still only 6k attack difference for 123k survival and it's only self buffed, fully buffed the survival go higher while the magic attack doesn't move and if you can kill a sin with 51k attack i can do it with 44k attack too ijs.

By your own words... you can kill a sin with 44k atk index just like a cleric with 51k can. By same logic... you'll die just the same with 454k survival index that a cleric with 331k will.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If you think i use the warsong belt for the p.def you are wrong, it's for the 5 defense lvl.

against phy damage... the 1k+ p.def that you can get is going to matter more then 5 def levels... that is of course if you can get them. and regarding you 5 def levels... against me (for example) your precious def level is going to take off a whopping 2.5% damage.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If you think 123k+ survival doesn't make any difference on the survivability it's your choice.

of course its my choice... and if you are using it for the 5 def level... your 123k+ survival index is the equivalent of taking 250 pvp damage less...

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

against phy damage... the 1k+ p.def that you can get is going to matter more then 5 def levels... .

If p.def was so much better people would not bother to shard in JosD and would shard in Drakeflame ijs...

Anyway i'm done arguing with you.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

If p.def was so much better people would not bother to shard in JosD and would shard in Drakeflame ijs...

Anyway i'm done arguing with you.

Good thing you are done arguing... cause your jade argument is the most **** to date. People put jades because it give better benefit vs (even) drakeflames. With drakeflame's p.def you are going to get 1% additional p.def at best and it is a diminishing return. So its a comparison between 2 def levels vs. 1% p.def. And yet you are trying to compare that to additional 1.3k p.def on a ROBE (which would easily equip to probably greater then 10% p.def) to 5 def levels.