Why nobody wants them?

xvokcx
xvokcx Posts: 64 Arc User
edited August 2012 in General Discussion
How come all Sins , specially in this last 2x drop event, been saying that g16 daggers suck compared to g15-zerk+(-int) , from all the people I squaded with for vana , nobody would destroy their current daggers to make a g16 ones. HOWEVER here in the forums g16 daggers Rule even over r9 ''apparently'' so what the hellz going on? b:cryb:cry

Every sin that had g15(sacri and -int) +10 + 11 or +12 , i asked them and nobody is willing to go g16 cuz of no zerk addon So why is this happenin!!!!!!
Post edited by xvokcx on
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Comments

  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Because they're stupid.

    It's the same reason so many praise G13 Barrier Thorns when the only good thing about those daggers (compared to the alternatives, mind you) is the -int that allows 5.0/4.0.
  • OontzOontz - Dreamweaver
    OontzOontz - Dreamweaver Posts: 782 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    GoF is better for pvp. You don't see pvp wizzes using all channeling gear now do you? And who the hell would throw away good adds?
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  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Many praise +12 a lot, regardless of what weapon it's on. b:shutup
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  • Pytharia - Lost City
    Pytharia - Lost City Posts: 757 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    If they have GoF with -int then fair enough, they might choose to keep that but +40 attack is more reliable and G16 have better refines. G16 is better, you'll just have to give up your the cash you spent for high refines if you made dark death thorns.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Firstly, because most people in this game have no absolutely no clue how Attack Levels work.

    Secondly, because most people in this game would see a zerk crit and go "**** yeah, *******!"

    Thirdly, because some of the people do PvP.

    Fourthly, because some of them wouldn't be willing to transfer over the +10-12 refine, which would mean their damage would in fact be lower until they refined to the same or nearly equal point.
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  • MagicEmpress - Lost City
    MagicEmpress - Lost City Posts: 795 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Firstly, because most people in this game have no absolutely no clue how Attack Levels work.

    Secondly, because most people in this game would see a zerk crit and go "**** yeah, *******!"

    Thirdly, because some of the people do PvP.

    Fourthly, because some of them wouldn't be willing to transfer over the +10-12 refine, which would mean their damage would in fact be lower until they refined to the same or nearly equal point.

    ^^^ This.

    If someone spent a lot of time and /or money to forge +10 - +12 NV 2nd cast Daggers and rerolled forever to get both -int and GOF then they are probably gonna stay with them. Since it would cost a ton to transfer +12 refine over with great shards too. Then you got to reroll again unless you get lucky and get -int 1st try.
  • Dragoneast - Sanctuary
    Dragoneast - Sanctuary Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Firstly, because most people in this game have no absolutely no clue how Attack Levels work.

    Secondly, because most people in this game would see a zerk crit and go "**** yeah, *******!"

    Thirdly, because some of the people do PvP.

    Fourthly, because some of them wouldn't be willing to transfer over the +10-12 refine, which would mean their damage would in fact be lower until they refined to the same or nearly equal point.

    then can u explain how atk lvl's work?
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  • Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary
    Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary Posts: 3,034 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Because I DON`T want to invest my precious time for this game anymore, I`m doing slowly what I can to upgrade my current gears, which already are decent, and I`m sure many do the same, what`s the point if something takes 4 seconds faster or slower to kill.

    Gear below r8 is already way advanced over any content this game offers and pvp is a joke anyway, getting the best equipment available is only to stretch your e-peen mostly, "Oh look I got a new shiny thing and I can kill something several seconds faster."
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  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Like usually, it takes time before ppl start to appreciate something new. When nirvana was just out, most considered G13 as the ultimate dagger as it has -0.1 int, and G15 was for the stupid. When R9 became doable, it was considered bad as it has no -int. Now it's "zerk" procs that are hip, even when ppl don't know why. I see many wc now asking for "zerk sins" and hear many drool over GoF. It's to soon to say much about G16 yet. Here on forums they love theoretic figure throwing for the heck of it. Ingame, nobody cares really. It will take some epic sin with G16 weapon (and preferably making vids) to get popular. That is how it always goes.

    On top of that, I also think that in general the sin community being bad players with (at the best) mediocre armor/ornies that only solo so as not to share and refuse to squad with anyone that could slow them down while complaining they can't find bh delta squads, affects their ability to actually get a mold. Remember most have the TT G15 version cause they had G13 before, so will either have to start from scratch to make new and have a worthless weap in bank, or farm the mold themself.
  • MyMate - Dreamweaver
    MyMate - Dreamweaver Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    < Want them xD
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Firstly, because most people in this game have no absolutely no clue how Attack Levels work.

    Secondly, because most people in this game would see a zerk crit and go "**** yeah, *******!"

    ^ These 2 points. And because most sins are stupid. (No offense to the few intelligent ones I know)

    And on that note, Unless the Sin is going to CoD and skill spam I rarely notice much overal damage difference taken from a sin getting a zerk crit vs a g16 regular crits from a PvP standpoint.
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  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Dragoneast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    then can u explain how atk lvl's work?

    Like this:
    wiki wrote:
    if ( attack level > defense level ) then:
    damage taken = damage delivered * ( 1 + ( attack level - defense level ) / 100 )

    if ( attack level < defense level ) then:
    damage taken = damage delivered / ( 1 + ( 1.2 * ( defense level - attack level ) / 100 ) )

    Damage results are rounded down. For example, a damage result of 367.9 becomes 367.
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  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    People are stupid and doesn't use what is better for their class.

    Ex: Clerics R9 all use the R9 belt while the warsong barrier: naught give a better survivability and it's even cheapest, but all people see is the the +20 att.lvl bonus with R9 belt, a cleric is not a DD and should prioritize survivability before the attack, but majority of clerics getting R9 become metal mage...
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  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Dragoneast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    then can u explain how atk lvl's work?
    This site has a very good wiki for stuff like that.

    http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Damage#Attack_and_Defense_Levels
  • Hot_pho - Heavens Tear
    Hot_pho - Heavens Tear Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    what server are you on? idk about other servers but on ht many of the sins and bms been upgrading to g16 daggers/claws/fist.
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Ex: Clerics R9 all use the R9 belt while the warsong barrier: naught give a better survivability and it's even cheapest...

    JR Belt is cheaper :P
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »
    People are stupid and doesn't use what is better for their class.

    Ex: Clerics R9 all use the R9 belt while the warsong barrier: naught give a better survivability and it's even cheapest, but all people see is the the +20 att.lvl bonus with R9 belt, a cleric is not a DD and should prioritize survivability before the attack, but majority of clerics getting R9 become metal mage...

    how much do you pay for warsong neck? considering it take 9 to make a g16 neck... and are you going to leave it at stock without refines? The break even point for p.def is at +6 while at +12 there is a 1.3k p.def advantage. Throw everything in... and g16 belt will cost more then r9. I should probably also point out the 5 def level vs r9's 23 (include bonus) atk level trade off. Guess warsong gives 150 more hp, vs r9's 10 extra mag points. I would much prefer my cleric to have some teeth on her... instead being a meat shield that never step outside of the kitchen.
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  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »
    People are stupid and doesn't use what is better for their class.

    Yup. Kinda scary how many r9's with billions of coin worth of equips are still proudly linking their +12 weapons with DoT's for squads.

    Zerk is one of those things that a lot of people seem to read as "double damage". Never mind proc rate... double damage! Even in PvP I'd rather use something that can definitely kill an opponent, instead of hoping to win 20% of my fights with lucky zerks.
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I was wondering

    g15 sac strike, 5 aps, demon sin, 63 attack lvls total, +10 weapon, 1 garnet gem

    vs

    g16, 5 aps, demon sin 103 attack lvls, +10 weapon, 1 garnet gem

    Of the two, which would be doing more damage in a PVE setting?

    Assuming same amout of dex, str, other atrributes, which of the two builds will hit harder, have better survivability?

    I put gof, because i could find sac strike. I know that sac strike is 15% proc rate, but i can't seem to figure out why g16 would hit harder?

    I know from my bm, that g16 claws +10 with jones bless, 70 attack lvls > g15 +8 zerk sins at 5 aps, +9~+10 are touch and go, depends on who attacks first, sparks first, if i hf on bm or not. G13 sins +10 can not hold agro at allb:shocked.

    The problem i have with proc rates in pwi, average is one thing, in game is different. Bosses in vana die in 1~2 spark cycles, that is 15~30 seconds.

    I haven't done tt yet, but i want to ascertain which of the two builds will deal more damage and live longer in tt? TT bosses are 2~8 (or more) spark deals, they take longer to fight. I am guessing the OP has similar thoughts when they asked the question.

    I have the option of going g16 daggers, or keeping my g15 daggers and refining them to +10. I will be farming alone, or with friends (g16 weapons all around on the bms), so will be multiclienting on sin with a bm.

    There is also the added problem of losing hp every time sac strike procs, as i play a bm mostly, big numbers is not my concern, the ability for sin to survive is. Guessing how sins drops in vana if they take agro from me, that worries me (but those sins are worse geared :P), but any decent refined weapon sin can tank vana bosses.

    I hope in asking these questions, i can help answer the OP's question as well.

    If these topics have already been discussed with technical details, would be appreciated if someone could link them, i could not find them easily with search options.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I was wondering

    g15 sac strike, 5 aps, demon sin, 63 attack lvls total, +10 weapon, 1 garnet gem

    vs

    g16, 5 aps, demon sin 103 attack lvls, +10 weapon, 1 garnet gem

    Of the two, which would be doing more damage in a PVE setting?

    Assuming same amout of dex, str, other atrributes, which of the two builds will hit harder, have better survivability?

    The G16 setup would be superior in terms of average DPS at 266,321 dps against the 241,767 of the G15.
    I put gof, because i could find sac strike. I know that sac strike is 15% proc rate, but i can't seem to figure out why g16 would hit harder?

    Wrong. It's not that G16 "hits harder", it's that the +40 Attack Levels is much, much more consistent that Sacrificial Strike or God of Frenzy. However, since Attack Levels are just a straight multiplier to your damage, the weapon with Sacrificial Strike or God of Frenzy will still have higher potential DPH via zerk critting, which is obviously not possible on the G16.
    The problem i have with proc rates in pwi, average is one thing, in game is different. Bosses in vana die in 1~2 spark cycles, that is 15~30 seconds.

    Even at 1 spark per boss, that's still 75 hits, which isn't too shabby for a proc based weapon.
    I haven't done tt yet, but i want to ascertain which of the two builds will deal more damage and live longer in tt? TT bosses are 2~8 (or more) spark deals, they take longer to fight. I am guessing the OP has similar thoughts when they asked the question.

    Well the G16 would be better. It'd deal more average DPS, which is the big deal in PvE at longer fights, plus it won't sap your HP due to the proc.
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  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Zerk is one of those things that a lot of people seem to read as "double damage". Never mind proc rate... double damage! Even in PvP I'd rather use something that can definitely kill an opponent, instead of hoping to win 20% of my fights with lucky zerks.

    Sounds like you don't PVP much then. Sure, the superior consistent DPS from G16 daggers makes them better than zerk daggers when you're looking at long PVE boss fights and so on. However the big thing about PK and PVP in general is damage per hit... particularly when you have to race a charm tick or kill within a stun lock (which is damn short nowadays with all the genie anti-stun skills knocking around) and that's where zerk daggers tend to have G16 beat. I've seen R9 Mystics in the sub-forums brag about how their healing from plants, etc overwhelms the damage from 5 aps +12 non-zerk G13 & G15 Sins. But they all admit that their healing can't handle R9 Sin zerk crit damage.

    Also and for your information... 20% proc rate is extremely high when the toon is hitting at 4/5 attacks per second. Maybe not so high when you're a skill spamming R9 Seeker or slow hitting axe BM.
  • unceuncerave
    unceuncerave Posts: 471 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Who cares? Sins are an OP class and are useless for TW. And you think they aren't name ONE situation in tw where you'd rather have a sin then ANY other class. I can't think of one.
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    unceuncerave wrote: »
    Who cares? Sins are an OP class and are useless for TW. And you think they aren't name ONE situation in tw where you'd rather have a sin then ANY other class. I can't think of one.

    They are good for scouting. b:cute
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  • ZoracGallant - Raging Tide
    ZoracGallant - Raging Tide Posts: 1,624 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The reason they can't handle r9 damage is not because of zerk but because of the attack lvls. Prooving the point that the g16 nirvanas are better lol.
    unceuncerave wrote: »
    Who cares? Sins are an OP class and are useless for TW. And you think they aren't name ONE situation in tw where you'd rather have a sin then ANY other class. I can't think of one.

    Sneaking behind enemy lines and killing archers/wizzies/clerics and stealthing away before anyone knows what happened.
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »
    The reason they can't handle r9 damage is not because of zerk but because of the attack lvls. Prooving the point that the g16 nirvanas are better lol.
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And on that note, Unless the Sin is going to CoD and skill spam I rarely notice much overal damage difference taken from a sin getting a zerk crit vs a g16 regular crits from a PvP standpoint.

    ^ >.>


    Sneaking behind enemy lines and killing archers/wizzies/clerics and stealthing away before anyone knows what happened.

    Bramble > sin Sorry :P

    And the classes about to be "assassinated" should be prepared for that anyways. I can't recall a time a sin was successful in tw against me with that. :P
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  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    ZoracGallant - Raging Tide wrote: »
    The reason they can't handle r9 damage is not because of zerk but because of the attack lvls. Prooving the point that the g16 nirvanas are better lol.

    In PVP many players are now so OP geared that Sins now find themselves fighting opponents whose defense levels nearly or (example, R9 Seekers and Psychics) completely cancels out their attack levels. If fighting someone like that, good luck with your G16 daggers then. b:bye
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    In PVP many players are now so OP geared that Sins now find themselves fighting opponents whose defense levels nearly or (example, R9 Seekers and Psychics) completely cancels out their attack levels. If fighting someone like that, good luck with your G16 daggers then. b:bye

    Sins only get 2 things. Ring (because they have to) and daggers.

    That's 30 attack levels. You're typical average R9 only has 25 defense levels(Archers get 28 because of the chest piece).

    20 from the full set and 5 from the ring.

    some may get 1~5 from things like Wings of Cloudcharger /Matchless Cape/Cube Necklace but that's about it. Very few will have JoSD in their gear.

    So let's make it a flat 30 defense levels to make it even matching that of the r9 daggers, where G16 gets 40 attack levels putting their base damage 10% higher not forgetting the fact you can get 5.0 aps with them to have an increased amount of DPS.

    Yes they can have higher spike damage with zerks but overall the DPS for G16 wins out in PvP.

    Oh, to add to that since the sins can get interval on the daggers that means they can drop the crappy t99 pieces and put better defensive gear on to help them survive longer in pvp, where as they are forced to use garbage gear to keep their precious aps with r9 daggers.
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  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sins only get 2 things. Ring (because they have to) and daggers.

    That's 30 attack levels. You're typical average R9 only has 25 (Archers get 28 because of the chest piece).

    20 from the full set and 5 from the ring.

    some may get 1~5 from things like Wings of Cloudcharger /Matchless Cape/Cube Necklace but that's about it. Very few will have JoSD in their gear.

    So let's make it a flat 30 to make it even matching that of the r9 daggers, where G16 gets 40 attack levels putting their base damage 10% higher not forgetting the fact you can get 5.0 aps with them to have an increased amount of DPS.

    Yes they can have higher spike damage with zerks but overall the DPS for G16 wins out in PvP.

    G16 wins over R9 daggers in the DPS department full stop, no one is disputing that. But... question for you. Which is more important in PVP/TW... DPS or DPH ?
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    G16 wins over R9 daggers in the DPS department full stop, no one is disputing that. But... question for you. Which is more important in PVP/TW... DPS or DPH ?

    Both? It depends on your class. Sins are based on DPS not DPH otherwise they would be decked out in Full R9 and using Chill of the Deep, not garbage gear to keep interval as high as possible for aps.

    And I can't take a sin as a serious TW class at all. And most major TW factions will agree. Sure 1 or 2 to sneak around and attempt to kill the end end DDs/clerics is fine but not 20+. At one point TW factions were declining sins at application regardless of their gear on my server.
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  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I prefer a reliable hit vers "oh It may zerk crit" Currently my unrefined G16's hit as hard as the g15's +10 they use to be without zerk and are just a tad lower than my +11 R8's.

    Oh KawaiiJen did you make a char on RT's? I keep seeing a KawaiiLen and figuring its you
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