a little love for clerics

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  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »
    Than why you quote me saying i don't understand bearish, you are probably more troll than him finally. b:bye
    I tend to only troll people who are acting stupid more often than not.

    That said, I'm guessing you didn't read or understand my post at all, so allow me to draw some attention to the key points.
    truekossy wrote: »
    Either you missed the sarcasm or don't seem to realize Bearish is a troll and that reply was along the same lines.
    Do think a bit first next time. b:bye
  • aensidhe
    aensidhe Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    It's amazing how many players say "No to upgrades for cleric", "You're just a support class; shut up", when clerics can be critical in instances and TWs.

    From my experience playing PvP-centric MMOs, these are usually made by players who have never tried playing a healing class and just mashed a few buttons for dps and think they are veterans. b:bye

    You don't get an objective balanced perspective until you play the different classes. I agree with the OP - sure a cleric can be good with gear and experience, but the learning curve is significantly higher, and advantages from top gear aren't as great as for other classes with the same level. Unfortunately, that is much the same with most MMOs. That is why clerics - especially those that stick with them - have my respect. b:cute
  • Safeng - Sanctuary
    Safeng - Sanctuary Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    aensidhe wrote: »
    From my experience playing PvP-centric MMOs, these are usually made by players who have never tried playing a healing class and just mashed a few buttons for dps and think they are veterans. b:bye

    My very first char was a cleric and now I got pretty much every class at endgame/decent level. So your statement is pretty much void. lol

    Or maybe this isn't a PVP-centric MMO. b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • scarfaceclaw
    scarfaceclaw Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    redthewitch wrote: »
    firstly, the new cleric skills are well..... a joke???

    This can be said of all the new skills IMO sure they are unique and fun and there will always be people who "gota catch 'em all".

    But none ive seen are really "must have" like a heavens flame or Ironheart heal.

    Although clerics get one of the best in the no exp loss when dying skill.
    What kind of fool pays for a free game.
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    scarfaceclaw wrote: »
    But none ive seen are really "must have" like a heavens flame or Ironheart heal.

    Stealth for archers, a +20% skill damage buff for mystics, a beefed up Deaden Nerves for barbarians, automatic purify + shrink for wizards upon hit?

    These all seem like major game changers to me.
    scarfaceclaw wrote: »
    Although clerics get one of the best in the no exp loss when dying skill.

    The best? It's a slight money saver in PvE for roughly 6 levels, after which most people couldn't care less about losing xp.

    And you only need to do several weeks worth of daily quests in order to get it. How useful.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Beleni - Dreamweaver
    Beleni - Dreamweaver Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    i dont understand the big QQ about the new cleric skills.
    it added a new layer to the class.
    why complain about not being able to use heals in VD mode, PW doesn't give something for free.
    take barbarians for example,
    Tiger mode lowers P .attack and makes all Human form skills unavailable.
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    take barbarians for example,
    Tiger mode lowers P .attack and makes all Human form skills unavailable.

    Yet does True Form lower your HP and defenses and cause mobs to run away from you?

    Same principle, really. Tiger form adds to the core function of barbarians, VD takes it away from clerics while giving something that is a novelty at best in return.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ponyduck
    ponyduck Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    truekossy wrote: »
    Only if you're in crappy gear or suck at the class. Clerics (especially the demon vtariey) are still deadly in PK with equal gear/skill as other classes (excluding OP fish as always) when played right.

    lol, "excluding OP fish as always" . . . .

    Your qualifiers tend to make my point.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    ponyduck wrote: »
    Your qualifiers tend to make my point.
    ... Not really? Demon clerics do tend to hurt a lot more than sage ones due to the nature of their skills. That's nothing new. It's not saying sages don't hurt. Just demons on average hurt more.

    And excluding the OP fish should come naturally. Pretty much every PK discussion involving balance either excludes them, or devolves into being about how they aren't balanced compared to EVERY OTHER CLASS (hint: That means that clerics aren't alone in being at a disadvantage against them)
  • anascarlet
    anascarlet Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    of all the classes, i fear clerics the most

    b:chuckle
  • Selak - Dreamweaver
    Selak - Dreamweaver Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Married to 94 cleric ingame and all I will say is if she lays into me as hard as she does now at 102 I and going to have a tough fight. b:chuckle

    She loves the new Morie skill books I got her and has even found times and places to use them.

    Many times I have watched a cleric save a party wipe.
    I trust clerics, a fish married to a bird I have to trust them b:chuckleb:laugh
    There are old Warriors, and bold Warriors,
    but there are very few old bold Warriors. b:chuckle
  • SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver
    SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I tend to disagree and believe the new cleric skills are a good addition to a clerics arsenal in pk. It sounds to me that a lot of you have either never pked on a cleric or do not know when and how to use the new skills to best effect.

    Clerics are now able to take down high HP targets a lot easier than before - sleep/seal target, reduce charm to nothing with absorbing array, increase crit damage buff to said target and then nuke away. Not to mention magic shackles, that on a good geared cleric is enough to keep most people from apsing you to death.

    Yes I would have loved to have been given an anti stun or a leap or some sort and I agree our deaden nerve buff is largely useless but to say all the skills are useless just seems to me that people are looking for an insta win skill...
  • VoItaire - Harshlands
    VoItaire - Harshlands Posts: 1,033 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Completely agree with the OP. Clerics are one of the few classes that aren't worth r9ing when consider how much more the other classes get from it and how well they scale into late game. Besides that, in PvP clerics for the most part are one trick ponies and really need a larger arsenal to play with. Sleep chains got boring and predictable fast. Everyone serious PvPer knows how to react to them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Just like how everyone who is serious know how to react to stun locks already right....

    Anyways, if you people haven't tried the Morai skills, then you shouldn't be complaining at all. I don't know if you actually PK with cleric, because it's been months since the Morai skills came out, and its application should have been very obvious the minute it's out. The Morai skills were added specifically for 1v1 PK, which is the one department clerics lacked and PW tried to improve.

    In group PvP, a cleric's undeniable effectiveness is obvious already.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver
    SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    VoItaire - Harshlands wrote: »
    Completely agree with the OP. Clerics are one of the few classes that aren't worth r9ing when consider how much more the other classes get from it and how well they scale into late game. Besides that, in PvP clerics for the most part are one trick ponies and really need a larger arsenal to play with. Sleep chains got boring and predictable fast. Everyone serious PvPer knows how to react to them.

    I think you missed the point of the new skills pwi introduced to clerics. Prior to the update we were as you state one trick ponies that could only really sleep-debuff-spark-attack. The new skills do add a new dimension to clerics when it comes to pk - it may not be as huge as other classes but don't underestimate what can be done
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    In TW cleric doesn't have more advantage with the morai skill ijs.

    Ye for pk 1 vs 1, but normally it's more in group people do that and still expect the pretty cleric to heal etc.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • CheetahWoods - Raging Tide
    CheetahWoods - Raging Tide Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I believe Mrs Mav on RT is an R9 cleric and just kicks the **** out of most everyone. fearsome pker.
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    CheetahWoods - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I believe Mrs Mav on RT is an R9 cleric and just kicks the **** out of most everyone. fearsome pker.

    You mean the cleric posting video where he pk AFK people and say he's pro?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • CheetahWoods - Raging Tide
    CheetahWoods - Raging Tide Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »
    You mean the cleric posting video where he pk AFK people and say he's pro?

    ya that one lol.

    edit: i actually want to talk to mav about their movie making skills. i have an idea for a pwi music video that would require "scenes" to be set up and shot in the pwi world. i have an entire "weird al" version of "pretty fly for a white guy" by offspring cooked up, called "pretty lame for a wiz dame" heh. it could be awesome if directed correctly and im clueless.
  • Prophete - Dreamweaver
    Prophete - Dreamweaver Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Hmm honestly, a full JOSD r9 cleric is one of the most scary opponent to face in pk.
    And with the new morai skill, they are even scarrier.
  • Beleni - Dreamweaver
    Beleni - Dreamweaver Posts: 383 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yet does True Form lower your HP and defenses and cause mobs to run away from you?

    Same principle, really. Tiger form adds to the core function of barbarians, VD takes it away from clerics while giving something that is a novelty at best in return.

    take true form out of the equation for a second.
    barbarians would be high HP DD and aoe characters.
    True Form is changes the roll completely. turning them into Meatshields.

    it doesnt add to the core funcations of a barbarian, it changes it.
  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Beleni - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    take true form out of the equation for a second.
    barbarians would be high HP DD and aoe characters.
    True Form is changes the roll completely. turning them into Meatshields.

    it doesnt add to the core funcations of a barbarian, it changes it.

    What do you think all that HP is supposed to be used for, picking daisies? Barbs have always been meant for tanking. The high hp is so that you can tank. And anyway it enhances your place in squad. Do you think anyone gets very angry with a barb for going into true form? No, of course not. But go in violet dance as the only cleric and watch how quickly you get the boot. Violet Dance added nothing to write home about to the cleric while taking away the clerics primary responsibility in squad, which is to support.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks Silvy for the superb sig <3

    VenusArmani's word of the moment: Expand your Vocabulary, Expand your horizons!
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=17992481&postcount=189
    Pusillanimous:
    1) lacking courage or resolution; cowardly; faint-hearted
    2) Proceeding from or indicating a cowardly spirit
  • aensidhe
    aensidhe Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Safeng - Sanctuary wrote: »

    My very first char was a cleric and now I got pretty much every class at endgame/decent level. So your statement is pretty much void. lol

    Or maybe this isn't a PVP-centric MMO. b:chuckle

    My argument was based around demanding pressure tests for a cleric outside of a BB = win situation. TW where PvP is a lot more hectic and demanding than 1v1 is one illustration of this.

    I think you misunderstand my argument. Having played a class means nothing. In today's PWI, FCC can get anyone a toon for each class into 'endgame' within a month, and still have next to no experience playing that class. Heck, even prior to FCC there were clerics with 3k HP who did not know which skills/build to use to avoid getting one-hit by bosses. More that didn't know when/how to heal, purify, debuff, revive etc..

    If I use your logic, I can also claim that within 30 minutes on a private server, I will have 'played' 10 toons to level 110+. Having played a class, and having experience playing a class through months if not years of pressure tests, is significantly different.

    My argument isn't whether a cleric is useless as is or not. Mine is that on the same gear - R9 as a top end example - clerics do not get as much incremental benefit relative to the other classes others have mentioned. Add to that the higher learning curve and responsibilities makes devoted clerics all the more admirable (not those who tried and dumped in favour of FOTM classes).

    As for morai skills - sure they look great on paper; I was totally b:dirty on the skill descriptions when I first saw them. But having got the skills, you then truly understand how limited their application is. For dps? Please, there are classes better suited to pure dps and more efficient at it. In a single cleric squad and you use VD - you are lucky you don't get blacklisted on the server...The animation for VD - seemingly short - can be the difference between a couple of heals/purify that keeps teammates alive in a critical situation. VD alone adds little in terms of magical dmg improvement (pure absolute increases mind you - % descriptions are so misleading). As others have also mentioned, VD nullifies the key role of a cleric also - healing.

    Sorry for the rant, but again, these are my arguments based off 2+ yrs on a cleric and more in other games as either healer or dps (manual leveling). b:pleased
  • NecroTwist - Sanctuary
    NecroTwist - Sanctuary Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    didnt see anyone who actually did the math about violet dance. i have a cleric and she is badass and rips agro constantly. -58% channeling will do that. but violet dance..... it is supposed to add 40-80% magic attack, not sure about ultraviolet dance bc i cant ever get even i skill book from AEU. i did some math and various gear arrangements. violet dance only ever give 5.58% magic attack!!!! That is why it feels useless. it DOESNT WORK.
    I tried to add a signature here thats not even as big as some. but it kept resizing to make it illegible, so **** it
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    NecroTwist - Sanctuary wrote: »
    it DOESNT WORK.

    It does work, but it's still useless.

    Let's have a look at the description:

    Increases Magic Attack gained by equipment by 40% to 80%

    What this means is that if your weapon has a damage range of 500-1000 and you have max soulforce, you will have 80% of your weapon's damage range added to your magic attack. This means VD would add roughly 400-800 to your damage range instead of increasing it by 80%.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ogunernile
    ogunernile Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I have waited a while to hear other perspectives before adding my two cents....so here goes:

    The violet dances are not useful. not only does it lower your already squishy hp, the damage increase for the first level is 1/3 of, and the second level is equal to, the same damage buff you'd get from a demon buff. So no great advantage there. Also you remove one of the central tactics for survival a cleric has, namely the ability to heal.

    If you wanted to show a switch from heal to DD, then sensibly you could have disallowed the heal over time spells in violet mode, making the other useless heals have a purpose again. This would allow clerics [the best healers in the game] to have a heal or two while in DD mode. Seriously every other class, including wizards, has a heal and clerics in their metal mage mode can't?

    Next the deaden nerves buff requires you to pay attention and guess when your opponent will score a crit or land that OP skill of theirs while fending for your life, and then it lasts 8 seconds. Really? I wont even bother with this since this skill is so useless might as well trash it for a whole concept or just extend the duration. God forbid we get a minute or two, since such leniency is reserved only for fishes but 40 seconds for a skill with a 3 minute cooldown would not be too much to ask.

    On Vendetta i played with the other skills, including the ever-unattainable magic shackles and aside from making the fights last longer, it does not make a fair representation of the psy version of SoV, on which it is obviously based. The crit enhancing skill does as work as advertised so that is the only skill that has any real effect [though i would say adding 50% to the rage damage, would really help in the DD department without being too OP]

    In general an anti-stun skill like an auto purge or something would not be crazy to get in place of one of these other useless abilities. No anti-stun in tw/pvp is the clerics main Achilles heal and is exploited with ferocious frequency in any tw/pvp match.

    In closing, I seriously believe the developers did not think about these things, just slapped skills together to create a facade of balance and give people something to do. I have played a cleric as my main since the inception of my account and am one of the best pvp clerics on my server, clerics has no chance vs a barb a wiz or the fish, but still I eek out wins vs evenly geared opponents with my own mega mage combo [not barbs though they have just too much hp in r9 +12], so I have tried using these skills in inventive ways. bottom line? they need adjusting to make clerics competitive even if having them be balanced was not your aim. b:surrender
  • SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver
    SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    ogunernile wrote: »
    The violet dances are not useful. not only does it lower your already squishy hp, the damage increase for the first level is 1/3 of, and the second level is equal to, the same damage buff you'd get from a demon buff. So no great advantage there. Also you remove one of the central tactics for survival a cleric has, namely the ability to heal.

    Just like to point out they changed Violet Dance to no longer reduce your HP and Ultra Violet actually gives HP depending on your level. Yes the damage increase is not much but still better than nothing
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    For those of you who say Violet Dance is useless, then why bother buffing yourselves with mattack buff? That's only 70% weapon damage right? Stop buffing yourselves with Spirit's Gift! It's useless! See if other people will see how much sense you have.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For those of you who say Violet Dance is useless, then why bother buffing yourselves with mattack buff? That's only 70% weapon damage right? Stop buffing yourselves with Spirit's Gift! It's useless! See if other people will see how much sense you have.

    Cause people can still heal with those? Demon spirit gift give 150% ijs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For those of you who say Violet Dance is useless, then why bother buffing yourselves with mattack buff? That's only 70% weapon damage right? Stop buffing yourselves with Spirit's Gift! It's useless! See if other people will see how much sense you have.

    Comparing a cost of 1000 mp per hour with being stripped of your heals?

    Makes total sense.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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