New archer and claws

Pure dex for maximun bow dmg and enough STR gear to wear fists/claws

Kossy and boogie's posts are it. +1000

soundslegit wrote: »

If you can't permaspark then fists won't do more damage.

Not entirely true. On any boss that is melee only or is better fought at close range, you'll do a bit more with fists than trying the same with a bow (I'm assuming with triple spark) prior to major endgame stuff like T3 Nirvana, R9, etc. Using a friend's archer as an example, this is her sparked with fists (which she is 2/3 of the time and this is her sparked with bow which she can manage about twice in a row without apoth before needing to spend more time than she spent sparked recovering chi.

Granted, you are right about that in general and she's not exactly the fairest example to use since very few people at that level will be running around with stuff like that, but the point that you don't always need permaspark for fists to out-DPS bow still stands.

chase1435 wrote: »

I was not raging at aps archers. It's their toon and their choice. All I was saying was that from a more cleric viewed place in pwi, personally I find them less helpfully for some reasons

Never said you were raging at them. Merely used you as an example of someone with a bias against them that... truly wouldn't be there if there were more decent ones or people who understood the whole thing better. Considering I also have a cleric, I know that side of view as well but having played for so long, I didn't really find some of your reasons as any real deterrent as long as the player knows what they're doing.

That said, since you're listing new reasons now that aren't so obviously misinformed even to the casual observer I'll go over them anyways.

*1. No bp
* *This is something to consider since in all actuality u can not denie that aps archer is a light armored person using claws with no bp. *In no way am I saying if an aps archer on a clerics watch its their fault (unless they do something rather stupid I.e. charge a group of mobs and not aggro all of them or something of that sort. What I'm getting at is that most clerics rely on bp to heal along with their heals and do I need to mention archer are rare these days in lvls blow 100. My cleric didn't heal many in FC when she healed FC for 15 lvls. Yes I have learned to heal archers now that I'm doing more 100+ bh's and tws but most under 90 clerics really don't heal many archer and may not be thinking that they don't get bp.*

No... no it's not. Any squad without a sin will not have BP. I've healed full spawn point deltas without BP, so BP or lack of it isn't a major issue. Relying on BP is, frankly, a sign of the times nowadays that in my opinion allows more clerics to be lazy. I didn't rely on BP before 2010 and I certainly will not start now. The fact that the current generation DOES rely on it is their business and problem, IMO. The rarity of archers is a moot point that has nothing to do with this since a good cleric can and will simply... check the buff icons. On top of that, just because an archer has the str to use good fists/claws doesn't mean they'll always be the most DPS in the squad and have to tank. And even in those cases there's nothing stopping the archer from switching to their bow if they aren't comfortable tanking at melee or find range tanking easier. And let's not forget that at range NOBODY gets BP, yet range tanking was a common practice prior to the APS craze.

Basically, BP should not be a factor when a cleric is in the squad if the cleric knows what they're doing. If your argument were based on the solo aspect, it would have VASTLY more merit. However, it has no place as something brought up in a squad setting as a cleric.

2. I'm not saying they are pointless or aren't a good way build an archer. I was discussing my view as it applies to my archer and my more biased view as a cleric.
With that being said from my perspective as a cleric I rate aps archer as a higher chance of dieing for many reason which I will explain. When an archer using a bow attacks a mob I generally I have atleast 3 seconds to heal the archer b4 the mobs closes in if the mobs makes it that far. That 3 seconds I cast 2 ih's on him easily without any problem. But an aps archer posses a higher risks of dieing the contributing factor being no bp for self heals on mobs when 3 to 4 ppl are attacking a mob group in a squad. Compared to a sin who I rarely ih I put atleast two ih's on an archer to insure that he lives thro the mobs attack since he isn't gaining any back unless he pots which I hate to see happen makes me feel like a fail.*

I find your very first statement here as ridiculous considering you were the one saying,

Christona - Raging Tide wrote: »

To me (cleric as a main and archer for an alt)
I have saw a claws archer rather stupid.

*snip with poor reasoning that I explained what happens when done RIGHT already*

It doesn't make sence. All it is people who want to say I'm 5 aps and I spent the xxx money to do. it's stupid plain and simple.

and trying to backpedal after I tried to downplay what you said and write it off as bad experience is kinda sad.

Anyways, going on to your point, you're making one huge flaw in judgement here. You're acting like just because the archer HAS the option of claws means that they'll never touch a bow ever again. Your healing reasoning is also flawed because an archer with equal gear is in the same situation as the sin you're describing. Either the mobs will do barely any damage to them... or you'd have to heal them anyways. BP doesn't make as big of a difference as you're acting like it does until dealing with stronger weapons and refines combined with permaspark. However, any archer stupid enough to simply run into a group of mobs with fists and NOT pot or use a genie heal when the mob deals real damage to them and they can't survive unhealed deserves to die anyways.

3. The mastery agruement is valid still. Yes it's old but my point was that it's less damage. The justification being that archer r made for ranged just like a cleric is for healing and barbs for tanking. Call me old fashioned but classes should stay with they are made to do. Just like a sin should use dagger on a boss fight. Noone would ever make a claw sin or a heavy armor cleric its insane. I was stating that to me archers using a bow makes a bit more sence and prolly could out dd an aps archer easily. I don't know if I'm right or not I'm just guessing.*

And the mastery argument isn't as valid as you seem to think. A self-buffed claw barb and self-buffed claw BM with identical stats and gears will give the result of the Barb out-damaging the BM as a base. Yet Barbs do not have fist/claw mastery. Yes once HF is taken into account and the BM is given barb buffs, he'll pull ahead, but the point remains. As I said before, blazing arrow and the higher crit rate of archers compensates for fist mastery. It's the gap in str that makes the bigger difference in a squad setting. As for your things that are insane? They've already been done and very effectively. Or shall we start to argue about why is it that claws have a dex requirement higher than their str requirement when they're meant for HA classes alone? While I can understand and respect your opinion on class division, trying to present your misguided opinion and guesses as a truth is something that's going to get shot down in these forums. If not by me, then by someone else.

Don't become all butthurt because I said my position on a subject and it doesn't agree with ur position. No point in attacking a person when clearly this is an opinionated answer.*

The only one appearing butthurt here is you. After all, you're the one who made this entire post as a response to a perceived insult in my post where I was merely stating facts. At no point in time did anyone attack you. Merely myself and... everyone else here with major experience as an archer posted something contradictory to your opinion due to the fact that... well... we're right.

It comes down to play style and how you want ur archer to be played. If u want an claws archer go claw. Want to be a ranged nuke go ranged.*

But saying I'm ignorant because I think aps archer isn't the best way to play an archer isn't right. It's my play style n opinion on the subject because of what I have saw and experienced with my cleric and archer.*

Except you are ignorant because you don't understand what claws mean for an archer. Yes, play style is a good part of it but at the end of the day, when you have the versatility provided for damn near free with minimal drawbacks, then advising against it is, frankly, ridiculous. As I've already said, you can equip claws with a pure dex build and just because you DO have the equipment doesn't mean you have to use it all the time. My assassin carries a bow around but I don't use it on every single monster over her daggers. My cleric has a pair of level 1 claws when I wanna **** around but that doesn't mean I use them over her glaive. Yes, you can always choose to simply not use fists at all and use merchanting for your bow... which is something I already pointed out. However there's really no reason NOT to do them if you want a factual analysis... and the archer forums is about facts first and foremost.

And if you are going say that ignorance of a lot of poeple is causing my personal view, then perhaps you should revaluate most of the pwi mind set towards safe archer. From what I have seen and heard sage archer are treated badly and are made to be like **** when really they are awesome consider that they stay true to what an ARCHER is really suppose to do and meander on such pitifully indolence such as aps because they know they are beasts without claws.

This just shows how little you really know. Sage is horrible at lower gears which is something we all acknowledge... and with the higher-end gears required to make sage shine, cultivation doesn't mean a thing... which is something else we've also all acknowledged and recognized. Yet at the same time talking about how they're beasts without claws? Really? Funny thing is there's so many 5.0 sage archers and people talk about the differences between 5.0 sage and 5.0 demon so often that saying sages don't use claws just shows how ignorant and blinded you are.

And plus saying it was first isn't justification for the rest. Does it make it ok for everyone else to drink a pint of gas in my town to do it cuz I was the first in the world to do it? No it's doesn't being the first doesn't make it justifiable for the rest to follow suite now does it?*

Now you're just making a strawman and being stupid. So since a SAGE ARCHER SO BEASTLY THEY DON'T NEED CLAWS was the first to be a public and well known 5.0 that means nobody else in the game should have followed suit and got 5.0 according to your logic regardless of class. You say you learned things old-school, yet you're sounding and acting exactly like an ignorant player of the newer generation would.

Your arguments are basically boiling down to "FISTS R BAD CUZ I SAY SO AND I DON'T LIKE THEM,". Meanwhile, those of us here with experience can say the exact opposite is true due to having experience and knowledge. On top of that raging against a post filled with facts simply because you take offense to what's true is... well... sad. You could have had some legitimate arguments and reasoning in there, something I've already said and pointed out where it may have existed, but instead you have... well... what you currently have.

Think maybe I was too honest? She went and deleted both her original post and the one I replied to for some reason when.... I've already quoted them so it's not like deleting them means people won't see.....

I'm scared. b:shocked




To keep this post on topic, though. Pure claw as an archer makes zero sense unless you're using your archer as a farming alt that's getting gears from your HA main account stashed to it so that you don't have to spend any coin on it aside from whatever you spent for hypering. The reason being that going pure str and not using your bow at all kills off the versatility that makes using fists a good option in the first place. If you were to build the character like a BM you'd lose out on the ability to equip a bow for your level which is going to leave you screwed over in PK and make your abilities kind of redundant in PvE to the point where odds are the character will have problems getting into squads that aren't by close friends will be... near impossible for you.

If you're going to go for fists/claws, stay as close to pure dex as possible and get just enough str for your fists. That way you'll get most of the damage and versatility it provides without nuking your bow capabilities.

Just stay pure dex and use +str ornas/engraving to use claws. Going demon would probably make claws a better option since you can invest less on gears and still obtain 5.0 easily.

Archers hit like a truck though and you should have little to no problem out DDing most things before level 99, including sins (unless you come across something with considerably better refines than you or you neglect upgrading your gear).

Another tip:

Put frenzy on your genie. It is epic.