should i switch to demon?

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands wrote: »

everyone will tell you to switch to demon

Actually there is a BM on HT that will slap you if you say you went demon for aps.

Switching to demon is an excellent idea.

~ RotP not missing
~ HF lasting 9 seconds
~ Drake bash stunning for 7.5 seconds
~ You can magic marrow and Bell to keep a nice magic defence and not gimp your P.def way too much

Oh, and that demon build you posted, its pretty good.
I would say go for it ASAPb:victory

akosireann wrote: »

If you even have the slightest plan of entering aps nirvy go demon. Even if you are low aps they will take you if you have demon hf

There's also the option of rolling an alt caster for caster Nirv. Nirvana really isn't the only way to fast easy coin, and yeah; 5.0 BMs aren't the greatest dds. HF is their main ticket to Nirvana.

dxzero05 wrote: »

What i'll be missing should i switch to demon is my TW dive set. I usually sage spark > CE > will for anti stun/paralyze > 2 chi pill > dive then roar, HF, and sweep. Should the zerk proc along with crit, this is sure to ohko the squishy arcanes. Sage spark is really important in this scenario because of the damage reduction. This is not the ideal way to dive but i love seeing multiple squishy arcanes drop dead at the same time..:D

Just replace sage spark with an apoth. Chi conservation this way :P

dxzero05 wrote: »

the reason why i picked sage initially was because of:
- sage 3 spark eruption
- sage bell
- sage marrows
- chi conservation and gain from skills

but now that archers can deal heavy physical dmg as well and after partying up with many demon BM's, i started thinking if i should switch cultivation. below are the reasons for switching:
- demon HF
- demon marrows
- demon drake bash
- demon roar

Since this is purely TW...

I know, have fought, have TWed with, have TWed against, a bunch of Sage BMs.

They do fine tbh. Remove sage marrows from your list, Demon marrows are better, even some of the sage ones admit to that.

To your list you need to consider:
Sage damage consistency through mastery
Sage Oceans Edge
Sage 3 Spark damage reduction (unless thats what you meant)

Demon crit % through mastery (better for tw)
Demon CD on Tiger Maw and Aeolian
Demon Range of Drake Ray
Demon Fan of Flames Range
Demon Fissure slow

(Sutra kinda sucks period given it costs a spark, but thats my opinion)

It's mostly a style thing dude. Sage is a bit beefier and Tanky...but not by a whole lot unless you're blowing three sparks. Demon is more reliable in terms of stuns, which is a good section of the picture.

HF wise you could swing either way at times. That extra damage from sage IS worth something, and well...ideally those people are down by that 6 seconds. However 9 seconds is a big deal for catabarbs depending on the power of your team so...kinda Demon HF eeks out as the winner.

I wouldn't redo your stats for fists unless you're trying to intentionally up your crit chance and chance to hit (which does play a factor for sure).

Overall opinions and analysis says go demon really. But plenty of Sage BMs do really well.

dxzero05 wrote: »

Thanks for that very thorough input. For the build, would you agree that the sage build is better than the demon one even if i switch cultivation?

Eh...kinda. Thing is there is a lot to be said for crit %.

15919 av with the str build.
14862 av with the dex build.

6.7% difference, but an uptake of 4% crit. Saku would be better for saying where the conversion is. Id prefer the crit % personally.

Really, I think the best advice for you right now is to upgrade all of that to N3, or go R9. You're gonna be blowing, off the top of my head, at least 200, if not 250m to get all those demon skills again. That is a good chunk of cash you could be investing into merching to go for N3 or R9. Upgrading would be a better option in terms of changing up your game/efficiency in TW.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Eh...kinda. Thing is there is a lot to be said for crit %.

15919 av with the str build.
14862 av with the dex build.

6.7% difference, but an uptake of 4% crit. Saku would be better for saying where the conversion is. Id prefer the crit % personally.

You'd lose a bit of dph going demon. I bumped his dex up to 200 before I did my calcs since stopping at 180 didn't make sense to me. May as well move 20 more strength over and have the ability to use fists and get the extra crit. In TW you can always hit a pillar with level 1 fists to chi up, but I thought you might like option of using lvl 100 fists. Also, there are moments in pk where you're just setting up your next few attacks by conserving and building chi and fists are useful then. Anyways...

15920 ave with str build, 14270 ave with 200 dex build. It's an inital attack difference of 11.6%, but any axe skill use brings that difference down (adds direct damage that applies to both builds and favors crit. Your crit % would go from 19 to 23%, that a 3.4% dps gain but a larger difference when applied to skills. Overall you're looking at about a 6% loss in overall damage still.

But, I find in pk crits to be more valuable than direct damage for jumping charms. Also you go from 2400 accuracy to 4000 accuracy for what that's worth to you, and go from 1500 evasion to 2300. I didn't add in accuracy to the 6% difference stated above and it could even things out. My opinion is it's all about even. The dex build offers less dph, but more crit, evasion, and accuracy.

If it matters, with -.1 claws and a cape switch with 200 dex you could be 4.0 for pve.

I've stayed out of this conversation so far because TW really isn't my area of expertise, although I know my BM cultis. Demon marrows really are much safer for the bm. A trained squad (emphasis on trained) sticks close together but not too close and the demon bell becomes better. A squad that spreads out either forces the bm into a running buff **** or they're stuck at +75% boost from bell. Either way, typically a demon bm has more survivability than a sage bm.

I saw your notes on how you apo, could erupt, chi skill... all for a run, stun, and HF combo using a trip spark as your defense shield. Now your genie is empty, your apos are in cd, and you're chiless. If this works for you, great. For me I find myself constantly short on chi prefering to use it for stuns and HFs, rather than my own triple sparking. My apos are usually IGs, rather than teas. Triple sparking for 25% more defense is just not something I would use 3 sparks on personally, which is why demon bell and magic marrow work really well for me.

Two more positive of demon. Maelael wrote of Diamond Sutra and it's a pretty impossible skill to find, but if you stick around to launch a few attacks after HFing sometimes you'll use it for the heal. Now you have 34% crit rate and GoF +12 Axes. ijs.

Lastly, chi suppression. Sages can gain 50 chi per minute, Demon's can remove 50 chi every 30 seconds, so 100 chi per minute. Keeping the archers and wizzies on the hills suppressed is huge defensively. Yes, having 50 chi is nice but so is not being hit by multiple 2 spark ranged attacks.

Demon for sure.

But from what I'm seeing of of what you're doing in TW then I really wouldn't know how to put it into words.

Anyway, I'm just a demon bm that constantly stuns and runs around my enemies asking them to poke at me so my DDs can make protected actions when fighting.

Demon RoTP is good so your stun won't miss. Always good to have a certain target or group pinned down for 6 seconds.

Demon Marrows are good because of it's balance it gives.
Alongside with Marrows is Demon Bell as you want to take priority to bell every 15 seconds (or 3 seconds to gain chi) for your team.

Demon Drake Bash good for pinning down targets.

Eh what am I saying... everyone is saying this or you already know it :P

Do it. You'll find yourself living against archers more in TW.

Yes

/thread