need advice from sages

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kamukaze
kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
edited July 2012 in Assassin
Hi.
I'm a demon sin and i get soon the magical 5 aps. I think sage sin would better for me, i choosed demon path becouse easier and faster farming, but at this point i think 3.33 with g13 dagger i can kill fast enough. I think i get same bp heal as 5aps demon+i get 25% dmg reduction. My gear is http://pwcalc.com/bc379f7e89e2bd30 . My question is: can i solo higher tt's than 2-2 if i switch to sage. I know i know it depends from my playing skills etcetc. I mean 25% dmg reduciton +sage focused mind can change anything? mean i never was in tt 3-1 or higher, as a sage sin can i be main tank in these squads? (ofc if i can hold agro).
Last question is what do you think what shall i improve after 3,33 aps? Tome or aim for g15 with 0,05+ss?
Ty for answers and sry for dumb questions :-)
Post edited by kamukaze on

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  • Slegtst - Dreamweaver
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    First off, im not a sage sin. :P

    But i run Nirvana with sins, alot. Demon sins. G15+10/12, R9+10/12. Love these guys, they hit hard and the run is very speedy with them. I always thought a demon sin was the ultimate aps dd.

    But then i ran a Nirvana with Trition...
    He's sage with *only* G13+12, but man o man, those runs where sickening fast. I assume he's still 5aps since i didnt have to alter any HF timing. Edit: what i was trying to say was, he sparked at the same interval as the rest of the squad [5aps demons].

    But what i understand is that becoming a 5aps sage sin is difficult, if not extremely costly.

    This is all just from personal experience, and only in Nirvana.
    Really looking forward to Trition himself posting here, or any other 5aps sage sin for that matter.
  • Night$aber - Dreamweaver
    Night$aber - Dreamweaver Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I know Trition but i'm preety sure he is full DoTs while most sins aren't.Tbh i don't see how a sage sin would out DD a demon one.Basically a sage sin has to use G13s to be 4 aps (5 with windshield,relentless courage or some low chance R8 recast) and even then,a demon could use G15,G16,R9 and end up out DDing the sage ones.
  • Slegtst - Dreamweaver
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Those runs with Trit also included Brivido. Demon 5aps R9+10.
    I think Trit still tanked most, but it was all so fast 'n blurry. D:

    Cant find Foccused Mind on ecatomb btw.. =/
  • PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    permaspark =/= 5aps, especially on sins....
    you only purge once #yopo
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    kamukaze wrote: »
    I think i get same bp heal as 5aps demon+i get 25% dmg reduction. My gear is http://pwcalc.com/bc379f7e89e2bd30
    Last question is what do you think what shall i improve after 3,33 aps? Tome or aim for g15 with 0,05+ss?
    Ty for answers and sry for dumb questions :-)

    Well, I'm a 4.0 base Sage sin.

    You are correct about the heals: 3.33 Sage BP heals as much as 5.0 Demon BP. But you have to note that Sages can still go up to 4.0 or even 5.0 and heal much better than a Demon with similar gear could ever hope to.

    As for your question: After 3.33, I personally went for Pan Gu, Creator to get 4.0 base. For a moment, I considered going with G15 Nirvana for the high damage numbers resulting from zerkcrits. However, I decided that the cost for that wasn't really worth it. Currently I am fully intending to stay with G13 Nirvana and refining that to the maximum.
    Night$aber - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I know Trition but i'm preety sure he is full DoTs while most sins aren't.Tbh i don't see how a sage sin would out DD a demon one.Basically a sage sin has to use G13s to be 4 aps (5 with windshield,relentless courage or some low chance R8 recast) and even then,a demon could use G15,G16,R9 and end up out DDing the sage ones.

    Silly people.

    R9 has lower attack speed than G15 or G13 and yet it's superior to both of them, regardless of your cultivation. For Demons, currently the best weapon in the game is Adversity, whereas for Sages a theoretical 3x -0.05 interval G16 Nirvana would be best.

    Also, everyone knows that a Demon sin with equal or better gear is going to have better DPS than a Sage sin, unless their attack speeds are equal. That's freaking obvious, so please stop using it as some kind of magic spell that makes Sage a useless choice.

    The thing is, a Sage sin can use DoTs to make the difference between the two cultivations smaller. Not to mention that in any situation not involving a Cleric, the Sage Sin will tank better assuming similar gear.
    Slegtst - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Those runs with Trit also included Brivido. Demon 5aps R9+10.
    I think Trit still tanked most, but it was all so fast 'n blurry. D:

    Cant find Foccused Mind on ecatomb btw.. =/

    Sage Focused Mind is a 33% chance to evade attacks, whereas level 10 is 25% and Demon is 25% chance to evade damage plus 20% chance to evade debuffs.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Ty Olbaze. I havent any experience at sages, but i usually solo things or play with friends. So with higher dps friends can kill safer thanks to 50% more bp and with lower dps friends i can tank bosses safer. Do i lose dmg reductiom effect under bb or somehow they multiplie? I dont know TT 3-x series, clerics do bb or ihspam? A sage sin can tank it or let tank bms or barbs? I thought under 2.86 base its pointless to switch to sage, couse lose permaspark, but at 3.33 i can kill fast as 2.86 r8 demon if not quicker, and it looks good for me. Maybe i will not get invite from randoms but who cares
  • Geshwur - Raging Tide
    Geshwur - Raging Tide Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    4.0 base would ofc be better...

    The thing is, I rolled a sage alt, and after playing demon I couldn't get used to the lower interval (though I have recently started adjusting how I play to accomodate T3 Nirvy on my sage b:cute)

    Anyway, When I was using my G13 on my sage for 4 base I was generally able to hold aggro from the demon sins in squad (Though I gave up the 25% reduction buff from sage spark for Wind Shield)

    The most important thing to remember on sage for DPS is Level 1 Wind Shield and there IS an effective method to use Crimson Soul powders without having to worry about the debuff, you just have to be smart with them.

    I personally don't recommend 3.33 base sage sin (with G13) however 4.0 with G13 is great. T3 at 3.33 base is also very nice. The jury is still out (for me anyway) on whether T2 with zerk at 3.33 base is still better than G13, perhaps Olba can bring us the numbers on DPS With and Without wind shield?
    Current Gears
    pwcalc.com/90f636550cbd5beb
  • eduardshaman
    eduardshaman Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I never said sages are useless.
    The thing is, a Sage sin can use DoTs to make the difference between the two cultivations smaller
    Demon sins can use hp/def shards instead of the DoTs to make the difference of defense smaller too.
    Not to mention that in any situation not involving a Cleric, the Sage Sin will tank better assuming similar gear.]
    Assuming similar gear,a sage sin will have 3.33 aps while a demon would have 5.0 which means the demon sin will be able to perma spark,while the sage won't thus meaning more immunity/hp healed if needed.If it's 4.0 vs 5.0 though,the sage one will have around 20% more heal i believe and the 25% reduction so that way it is indeed true that the sage one will tank better (demon one still can spark every 12 seconds instead of 15 but that shouldnt make that much of a difference at this rate).
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    eduardshaman wrote: »
    Assuming similar gear,a sage sin will have 3.33 aps while a demon would have 5.0 which means the demon sin will be able to perma spark,while the sage won't
    See :
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    permaspark =/= 5aps, especially on sins....
  • Haila - Sanctuary
    Haila - Sanctuary Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Unlike Geshwur who rolled a sage sin, I rolled a demon XD.
    Sage BP does make a big difference when soloing stuff for sins with lower refined gear.
    My gears are not top refined, ornaments +5, Nirvana hat and pants +10 and rest of hp gear +7/8. And where my 4.0 sage sin can tank with ease, my demon 5.0 has some kinda troubles XD, using same gears btw.

    Altho i like my sage sin more, i think my main sin will be the demon one in the future, since i got T3 nirvana daggers with 1x interval. Unless i change my mind and try to roll for 2x -int b:chuckle

    In your case, I see u have some low refined gears, i dont think u can solo higher TT's even if u switched to sage. U might be a better tank than the demon one tho in squad.

    Point of my story: at mid/low refine levels sage are better tanks and at the highest refine levels it doesn't matter but demons will have higher damage.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    in higher tt i used my cleric to bb, but i thought as a sage i can just buff myself and go on... clearing mobs till bosses is a timewaste but it seems i will do this until i get higher refines and pangu tome...
    so it takes a long time, but i dont wanna regret that i switched to sage to early. ( lose killing speed and cannot kill stronger bosses)

    i will switch to sage when i get end gamish gear, couse it seems 100x better for me, but if i can farm same gear 1,2-1,5x faster as demon then i will do it as demon :)

    ty, for answers... b:victory
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Unlike Geshwur who rolled a sage sin, I rolled a demon XD.
    Sage BP does make a big difference when soloing stuff for sins with lower refined gear.

    Sage Eruption as much.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Sage BP does make a big difference when soloing stuff for sins with lower refined gear.
    My gears are not top refined, ornaments +5, Nirvana hat and pants +10 and rest of hp gear +7/8. And where my 4.0 sage sin can tank with ease, my demon 5.0 has some kinda troubles XD, using same gears btw.

    It's not just Sage BP. It's the combination of Sage BP, Sage spark and Sage Focused Mind.

    After all, if it was just Sage BP, there's no way a 5 aps +10 Demon couldn't solo something that a +6 3.33 Sage can. The former obviously gets more heals/time.
    Point of my story: at mid/low refine levels sage are better tanks and at the highest refine levels it doesn't matter but demons will have higher damage.

    At "super-endgame", Demons get better defensive ability due to sharding JoSD, plus better native DPS. Though at that point, the DPS difference isn't really going to make either choice "bad".
    i will switch to sage when i get end gamish gear, couse it seems 100x better for me, but if i can farm same gear 1,2-1,5x faster as demon then i will do it as demon :)

    Well have fun getting the Celestial cultivation.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Haila - Sanctuary
    Haila - Sanctuary Posts: 467 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    After all, if it was just Sage BP, there's no way a 5 aps +10 Demon couldn't solo something that a +6 3.33 Sage can. The former obviously gets more heals/time.

    At "super-endgame", Demons get better defensive ability due to sharding JoSD, plus better native DPS. Though at that point, the DPS difference isn't really going to make either choice "bad".

    I use windshield almost in every spark so eruption reduction bonus doesn't count much on me. Also i only use sage focused mind occasionaly at the harder bosses.
    So mainly sage bp has most effect on me.
    I can see the sage bp effect the most at warsong, while my sage sin has no problem killing mobs without sparking, my demon one can die at sacrificial ones. At metal boss in BB i can tank with current gear on sage sin, but demon sin needs a hp charm and apo's.

    Same at some solo cardbosses sage no problem and demon hardly making it.
    I use windshield on sage sin, maybe has a few % damage reduction, but i dont think that makes the difference.

    So i can say the biggest difference at my gear level is sage bp vs demon bp.
    I'm almost certain my demon sin will perform the same with sage bp.
    My point is when demon sins are getting the refine levels where bp heals are covering almost every hit there is not much difference between demon vs sage, but no doubt they are able to do more damage.


    Your other points:
    I think every 5.0 demon +10 is able to solo everything a sage 3.33 can solo.

    Plus there is no rule that at "super endgame" demons will shard JoSD and sage DoT lol.
    I know some supergeared demon sins with full DoT's, i dont see them having any troubles with anything, maybe a bit in warsong at some bosses.
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    kamukaze wrote: »
    Hi.
    I'm a demon sin and i get soon the magical 5 aps. I think sage sin would better for me, i choosed demon path becouse easier and faster farming, but at this point i think 3.33 with g13 dagger i can kill fast enough. I think i get same bp heal as 5aps demon+i get 25% dmg reduction. My gear is http://pwcalc.com/bc379f7e89e2bd30 . My question is: can i solo higher tt's than 2-2 if i switch to sage. I know i know it depends from my playing skills etcetc. I mean 25% dmg reduciton +sage focused mind can change anything? mean i never was in tt 3-1 or higher, as a sage sin can i be main tank in these squads? (ofc if i can hold agro).
    Last question is what do you think what shall i improve after 3,33 aps? Tome or aim for g15 with 0,05+ss?
    Ty for answers and sry for dumb questions :-)

    As sage you will have an easier time tanking/soloing. I'm sure you looked around in some of the sage vs demon threads. However, I would improove my gear a lot more before going after a culti-change. You won't tank 2-3 or 3-x (at least not all bosses) with +0 ornaments and +5 armor.

    Only change to sage if you want to be a sage sin. From my experience, those who went sage because they can be 5 aps with windshield as sage, most of the time regret their choice once they reach full +10 and start to consider upgrading weapon. If you want high aps, demon has the edge over sage. As sage you will ultimately settle with 2.86 or 3.33 aps unless you roll the magical 2x -0.05 on R8r/G16/G15. Personally, I don't think aps is such a big issue when you are above 2, but I am one of the rare who thinks that way it seems.

    I suppose you mean you recently or almost got nirvana leggings. In which case I would go for the tome first, and the daggers after. I don't think it makes a lot of difference on personal side really. But being "only 4 aps" might have a counter effect on 2x. A friend lost his tome not long ago. So he was at 4 aps sparked but with +10 G15 daggers. He told me how he could only go with friends because he wasn't at 5 aps anymore.
  • Geshwur - Raging Tide
    Geshwur - Raging Tide Posts: 570 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    As sage you will have an easier time tanking/soloing. I'm sure you looked around in some of the sage vs demon threads. However, I would improove my gear a lot more before going after a culti-change. You won't tank 2-3 or 3-x (at least not all bosses) with +0 ornaments and +5 armor.

    Only change to sage if you want to be a sage sin. From my experience, those who went sage because they can be 5 aps with windshield as sage, most of the time regret their choice once they reach full +10 and start to consider upgrading weapon. If you want high aps, demon has the edge over sage. As sage you will ultimately settle with 2.86 or 3.33 aps unless you roll the magical 2x -0.05 on R8r/G16/G15. Personally, I don't think aps is such a big issue when you are above 2, but I am one of the rare who thinks that way it seems.

    I suppose you mean you recently or almost got nirvana leggings. In which case I would go for the tome first, and the daggers after. I don't think it makes a lot of difference on personal side really. But being "only 4 aps" might have a counter effect on 2x. A friend lost his tome not long ago. So he was at 4 aps sparked but with +10 G15 daggers. He told me how he could only go with friends because he wasn't at 5 aps anymore.

    I got told I couldn't do Nirvy with T3 Nirvy +8 5APS ._.
    Stupid people can be stupid. b:surrender

    Generally I enjoy playing my sage, enjoyed playing at 3.33 with G13, REALLY enjoyed playing at 4base, and now with 3.33 T3.

    It really boils down to your play-style.

    I personally favor the idea of rolling a second on same account to be sage and getting an account stash. Then all you need is R8 and skills again, but you'll have 2x the Nirvy farming power. =D
    Current Gears
    pwcalc.com/90f636550cbd5beb
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I went demon couse this is my 1st/main character and i asked hint from a friend. He told me i havent choice if i dont go to demon i will not get inv squads. I see many dumb ppl playing this game (i mean for example ff lvl limit 95-99 where a lvl99 player nerf xp same as a lvl 102 but i this is just a little off). So i believe him. I had only hook and thorn+cape+general bracers. So i didnt think that i can reach tt99 or i never thought i can get nirvi weapon. But meanwhile i met with some really nice friends who doesnt care if i play with h&t just lets play together. I like tankish toons, rolled a vit barb too, but his dmg output is annoying me. So at least at bosses if i play solo or in squad i better give up some dmg for survive. (jones vs omarley). So as i said i will switch, the question is when i will switch.
    Ps: sorry if my english hurts your eyes, but i hope you can understand me :)
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Geshwur - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I got told I couldn't do Nirvy with T3 Nirvy +8 5APS ._.
    Stupid people can be stupid. b:surrender

    I wasn't given a spot in a squad specifically looking for "high aps sins". And I'm a 4.0 base Sage.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • warior112
    warior112 Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Right now i am in the middle of getting the raptures needed for T2 Lunar weapon. i will keep my G13 Nirvana for being 4.0 aps base sage sin but i am still considering T2 with sac - int and random mod or T3 with - int. I love my sage sin a lot especially because i can choose between 4.0 aps sparked or 5.0 with WS. This allows me to save a lot of charm ticks on hard bosses and boost my taking ability a lot. Sage sins start to shine if u have a good weapon and most important sage skills (only skills i don't have atm are PD and Shadow Walk). And as sage sin you are the biggest chi building character in game (not counting barbs in big pulls when they can get 3 sparks in 1 sec). Aps are needed only for WC nirvana squads but u can be just fine with 3.33-4.0 aps even 2.86. And as a Sage sin u can advertise for yourself :"Sage sin <links weapon> with sage BP ans SS looking for ...".
  • eduardshaman
    eduardshaman Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    New idea: Make a demon sin as the main one and a sage one as an alt,with sage BP/SS and u can dual client them xD.Given sage bp,demons should heal higher than sages due to higher dps/aps and that should lower/neglect the damage reduction on sages.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    I already have a cleric and a barb to buff myself and i dont wanna make a sage sin for 3rd buffer toon. + as others said sage power =\= sage bp. I will need sage spark+some skills too. I say again my 1st priority is survive 2nd is damage dealing. Maybe its a fail sin theory, but its my playstyle. I think its more useful when i take agro i survive it and dont start to cry if i'm mega super dps and get 1hit. Ok you can say that sins have tidal prot but in longer fights you survive once, then kiss the floor. I find funny that ohers say: you are noob use chill of the deep to control agro... I never used this skill only for aoe. Lazy ppls dont understand this skill. But its an another topic...
  • Night$aber - Dreamweaver
    Night$aber - Dreamweaver Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Then go sage if you mostly want defense.Even then,i was trying to point out that with sage bp,u'll be 5 aps compared to 4,thus meaning 25% more heal if we think as same weapon,you can also get a better weapon as a demon then getting even more heal.All im saying is that even if sage is indeed a better tank,the difference gets lower if u have a sage alt to buff.
  • kamukaze
    kamukaze Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    you are right, but i'm a hard headed man :)... then maybe as demon with sage bp can you be same tank as a sage, but dont forget about special situations when you get purge and you have to bp yourself. So in that case sages have dmg reduction till cast and demon have attackspeed (ok you can use apo pots to reduce or nullify dmg. I dont say genie skills couse if you spam tangling mire and poison and maybe frenzy(?) then you will have already low energy to use AD for example). If this happens you will have "only" demon bp so your tanking ability goes down. (dont know about lvl100 bp frenzy maybe can save you in that situation). Ok i know its a special situation, and in squads mostly we will have clerics so demon can own.
  • eduardshaman
    eduardshaman Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Yeah i agree with that,and to get the sage sin alt to buff isn't available in most cases and the ones i can think of atm,would require the sage sin,which is just an alt to be geared kind of well too,so yea the choice is if you want defense or attack,and which one fits your playstyle.
    Most facts have been presented till now so it's all up to you :P.

    Edit:I'm Night$aber but my avatar seems to show my username sometimes and i usually forget to change it right as i log in xD.
  • Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear
    Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Good gear and refines overrules any culti



    opps
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
  • witniss
    witniss Posts: 517 Arc User
    edited July 2012
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    Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Good gear and refines overrules any culti



    opps

    yeah my sage sin is full r9 full dot and its pretty op
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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