Archer APS Build Not Cost Effective?
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
Posts: 2,461 Arc User
So for my lunch break today, I decided to look at LONG-TERM vs SHORT-TERM cost effectiveness of making your archer an APS user vs making a sin.
Archer
Pros
More money saved to use toward end-gaming your archer.
Able to join SOME APS squads for NV.
Cons
No bloodpaint - Crabmeat / Charm Consumption required. (Even with Revenge Proc)
Can't Solo or Duo most instances without VERY high end gear
Sacrifice points/gear for Str to wield claws/fists
Sin
Pros
Bloodpaint - lower cost in food/charm
More wanted for APS squads
Can Solo or Duo most instances without needing super OP gear.
Can share MOST of the gear from the archer.
More Damage.
Cons
Costs about an extra ~300mil coins to gear one up. (R8 Chest NV daggers + refines)
So short-term Yes the cost advantage goes to the archer, but in the long run the sin will gain more coin per time spent farming something then the archer. You can easily make back the 300mil and then some before the archer can make close to that much.
I suppose the major downside is being able to drop the ~100mil for the R8 chest and daggers +200mil later on for the NV daggers if you want those instead to give better defense ornaments for the sin or you lack a interval tome)
Now if you're farming to get the coin to do something like that for a sin I can understand that, but otherwise why the hell even bother with it? Archers using melee weapons hit **** damage and when I see them use fists in PvP I'm just like........ not even going to comment.
/Discuss.
Archer
Pros
More money saved to use toward end-gaming your archer.
Able to join SOME APS squads for NV.
Cons
No bloodpaint - Crabmeat / Charm Consumption required. (Even with Revenge Proc)
Can't Solo or Duo most instances without VERY high end gear
Sacrifice points/gear for Str to wield claws/fists
Sin
Pros
Bloodpaint - lower cost in food/charm
More wanted for APS squads
Can Solo or Duo most instances without needing super OP gear.
Can share MOST of the gear from the archer.
More Damage.
Cons
Costs about an extra ~300mil coins to gear one up. (R8 Chest NV daggers + refines)
So short-term Yes the cost advantage goes to the archer, but in the long run the sin will gain more coin per time spent farming something then the archer. You can easily make back the 300mil and then some before the archer can make close to that much.
I suppose the major downside is being able to drop the ~100mil for the R8 chest and daggers +200mil later on for the NV daggers if you want those instead to give better defense ornaments for the sin or you lack a interval tome)
Now if you're farming to get the coin to do something like that for a sin I can understand that, but otherwise why the hell even bother with it? Archers using melee weapons hit **** damage and when I see them use fists in PvP I'm just like........ not even going to comment.
/Discuss.
[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
Post edited by KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear on
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Comments
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KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »So for my lunch break today, I decided to look at LONG-TERM vs SHORT-TERM cost effectiveness of making your archer an APS user vs making a sin.
Archer
Pros
More money saved to use toward end-gaming your archer.
Able to join SOME APS squads for NV.
Cons
No bloodpaint - Crabmeat / Charm Consumption required. (Even with Revenge Proc)
Can't Solo or Duo most instances without VERY high end gear
Sacrifice points/gear for Str to wield claws/fists
Sin
Pros
Bloodpaint - lower cost in food/charm
More wanted for APS squads
Can Solo or Duo most instances without needing super OP gear.
Can share MOST of the gear from the archer.
More Damage.
Cons
Costs about an extra ~300mil coins to gear one up. (R8 Chest NV daggers + refines)
So short-term Yes the cost advantage goes to the archer, but in the long run the sin will gain more coin per time spent farming something then the archer. You can easily make back the 300mil and then some before the archer can make close to that much.
I suppose the major downside is being able to drop the ~100mil for the R8 chest and daggers +200mil later on for the NV daggers if you want those instead to give better defense ornaments for the sin or you lack a interval tome)
Now if you're farming to get the coin to do something like that for a sin I can understand that, but otherwise why the hell even bother with it? Archers using melee weapons hit **** damage and when I see them use fists in PvP I'm just like........ not even going to comment.
/Discuss.
All 3 points are untrue to a degree.
1) Revenge + spark heal was enough to heal me this x2 soloing cardbosses, granted my gears are better than a lot, #1 is still untrue for some.
2) I duoed 3-2 full run with R8 and 7k HP. Self healing with my own level 85 cleric and no one else. I doubt a sin could do that with 7k HP.
3) I'm pure dex and still can have 5.0, just switch to +str gears.
Sins still need pretty OP gear to even duo 3-2.0 -
Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »All 3 points are untrue to a degree.
1) Revenge + spark heal was enough to heal me this x2 soloing cardbosses, granted my gears are better than a lot, #1 is still untrue for some.
2) I duoed 3-2 full run with R8 and 7k HP. Self healing with my own level 85 cleric and no one else. I doubt a sin could do that with 7k HP.
3) I'm pure dex and still can have 5.0, just switch to +str gears.
Sins still need pretty OP gear to even duo 3-2.
So argument 1 is debatable and situational on what you farm
If the sins is an idiot I'lll agree, But I think a intelligent sin also could with a cleric healing them.
Yes, you have to use str+ gears instead, and in some cases sacrificing damage (Heavens band instead of a r9 ring for example)
Eh Not that bad. As long as they got about 10k hp and 11k pdef buffed or so. My sin can solo TT3-3 / 3-2 except colleaust and shes not in super OP gear. 90% of it is either my Archers old or current Gear.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »So argument 1 is debatable and situational on what you farm
If the sins is an idiot I'lll agree, But I think a intelligent sin also could with a cleric healing them.
Yes, you have to use str+ gears instead, and in some cases sacrificing damage (Heavens band instead of a r9 ring for example)
I sacrifice 0 PvP damage.
I don't think a 7k HPed sin can bow attack emperor from max distance. If the sin cannot bow tank emperor then the cleric better be OP.0 -
Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »I sacrifice 0 PvP damage.
I don't think a 7k HPed sin can bow attack emperor from max distance. If the sin cannot bow tank emperor then the cleric better be OP.
I was referring to PvE. Since PvE is all about killing things "fast" these days. It puts the damage gap of killings things with a sin vs archer even further by that method.
No the Sin would be using daggers, and if the cleric is at max range they should be fine, however nothing will help if the bosses decides to random agro the cleric. (2.5 dagger range + 28 sage/demon IH range = 30.5 meters)[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
sin is ugly /end0
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Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »sin is ugly /end
QQ
Who looks at their toon when they play anyways? b:surrender[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
Sin is only good in like 2 instances: nirv and TT. In everything else archer can do as good as or better than a sin. Both of those are overfarmed to the point where its barely worth doing so that makes sin a dead end character. If you want to make the sin better for any of the other instances youre going to have to spend far more than 300m on gear for the sin. None of the sin gear overlaps with end game archer gear.
Going forward the devs are going out of their way to make new instances APS resistant. Look at all the recent stuff: EU, AEU, Warsong revamp, Lunar revamp, 9 trials, caster nv, BH100 revamp. Sin is **** in all of those.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Sin is only good in like 2 instances: nirv and TT. In everything else archer can do as good as or better than a sin. Both of those are overfarmed to the point where its barely worth doing so that makes sin a dead end character. If you want to make the sin better for any of the other instances youre going to have to spend far more than 300m on gear for the sin. None of the sin gear overlaps with end game archer gear.
Going forward the devs are going out of their way to make new instances APS resistant. Look at all the recent stuff: EU, AEU, Warsong revamp, Lunar revamp, 9 trials, BH100 revamp. Sin is **** in all of those.
While sadly this is true. That's where 99% of farmers go during x2. Unless you have r9 the sin can share all the nirvana / tt99 gear your archer uses (except the chestplate and weapon as they will use daggers as a primary weapon). The cost for nirvana materials are still high though due to the g16 desire for the people who can't afford r9. (Cannies are still 300k+ and raps are still 1.5mil+ on my server.) Duo runs in nirvana you're looking at about... 3 mil average per 20minutes or so(1 rap and 4 cannies each.)
Yes I see the new/revamped instances are pretty much anti APS, but no one really farms those besides maybe warsong to sell the molds / offense badge.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »If you want to make the sin better for any of the other instances you're going to have to spend far more than 300m on gear for the sin. None of the sin gear overlaps with end game archer gear.
This is probably the biggest point, to me. At the end of the day, a demon archer can still be 5 aps with what, four pieces of rank 9 gear? What can I do with sin-specific APS gear? Leave it on the sin. Any improvements I make to my archer are there for PvP as well as PvE whereas the sin's sole purpose is farming TT and Nirvy. I will never use my sin in delta or even BHs...
The way I see it, APS merely adds to the greater variety of things an archer can do in this game.Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »While sadly this is true. That's where 99% of farmers go during x2. Unless you have r9 the sin can share all the nirvana / tt99 gear your archer uses (except the chestplate and weapon as they will use daggers as a primary weapon). The cost for nirvana materials are still high though due to the g16 desire for the people who can't afford r9. (Cannies are still 300k+ and raps are still 1.5mil+ on my server.) Duo runs in nirvana you're looking at about... 3 mil average per 20minutes or so(1 rap and 4 cannies each.)
Yes I see the new/revamped instances are pretty much anti APS, but no one really farms those besides maybe warsong to sell the molds / offense badge.
Nirv mats are 30% cheaper on sanctuary and get cheaper every 2x. Can you imagine how cheap they will be once they release Drake Mirror packs at a 22 gold / 100 pack sale? Or how about when they release the aurora agent on a permanent basis?
I can easily see nirv dying in the future. It's already dead unless theres a 2x.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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A demon can, a sage can't. Yay another reason for my sage archer to be obsolete. But this is also a little biased in assuming all archers can afford r9 in the first place. But I guess I can see in making your archer more versatile helps make you enjoy more of the game I guess. (Though as a full r9 archer I can out DPS any aps archer on any fights that take less then 5 sparks and in most cases BMs as well if their HF is timed with my sparks)Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »This is probably the biggest point, to me. At the end of the day, a demon archer can still be 5 aps with what, four pieces of rank 9 gear? What can I do with sin-specific APS gear? Leave it on the sin. Any improvements I make to my archer are there for PvP as well as PvE whereas the sin's sole purpose is farming TT and Nirvy. I will never use my sin in delta or even BHs...
The way I see it, APS merely adds to the greater variety of things an archer can do in this game.
Ouch your economy is worse off then ours.b:surrenderAsterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Nirv mats are 30% cheaper on sanctuary and get cheaper every 2x. Can you imagine how cheap they will be once they release Drake Mirror packs at a 22 gold / 100 pack sale? Or how about when they release the aurora agent on a permanent basis?
I can easily see nirv dying in the future. It's already dead unless theres a 2x.
This games farming rate is pretty much dead unless its x2
People are too lazy / spoiled on x2 to farm much if at all unless it's x2 now.
On that note... What IS left to farm?.... AEU is running out of steam already as well as Warsong....
There really isn't anything left that hasn't been overfarmed.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »So for my lunch break today, I decided to look at LONG-TERM vs SHORT-TERM cost effectiveness of making your archer an APS user vs making a sin.
Archer
Pros
More money saved to use toward end-gaming your archer.
Able to join SOME APS squads for NV.
Cons
No bloodpaint - Crabmeat / Charm Consumption required. (Even with Revenge Proc)
Can't Solo or Duo most instances without VERY high end gear
Sacrifice points/gear for Str to wield claws/fists
Sin
Pros
Bloodpaint - lower cost in food/charm
More wanted for APS squads
Can Solo or Duo most instances without needing super OP gear.
Can share MOST of the gear from the archer.
More Damage.
Cons
Costs about an extra ~300mil coins to gear one up. (R8 Chest NV daggers + refines)
So short-term Yes the cost advantage goes to the archer, but in the long run the sin will gain more coin per time spent farming something then the archer. You can easily make back the 300mil and then some before the archer can make close to that much.
I suppose the major downside is being able to drop the ~100mil for the R8 chest and daggers +200mil later on for the NV daggers if you want those instead to give better defense ornaments for the sin or you lack a interval tome)
Now if you're farming to get the coin to do something like that for a sin I can understand that, but otherwise why the hell even bother with it? Archers using melee weapons hit **** damage and when I see them use fists in PvP I'm just like........ not even going to comment.
/Discuss.
This games dead. Farmings dead. There is no point in making a sin anymore. Might as well just do it for your archer.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] for GD Onion 2012 b:victory0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Sin is only good in like 2 instances: nirv and TT. In everything else archer can do as good as or better than a sin. Both of those are overfarmed to the point where its barely worth doing so that makes sin a dead end character. If you want to make the sin better for any of the other instances youre going to have to spend far more than 300m on gear for the sin. None of the sin gear overlaps with end game archer gear.
Going forward the devs are going out of their way to make new instances APS resistant. Look at all the recent stuff: EU, AEU, Warsong revamp, Lunar revamp, 9 trials, caster nv, BH100 revamp. Sin is **** in all of those.
You forgot FC... Sin is way better for FC...
And TT is still potentially the most profitable instance. Though, I am not sure what prices on Sanct are like. I made 70m over the weekend, and that wasn't no-life farming.0 -
Sin is barely better than archer now archers have Ataraxia, assuming you're FCing to sell.0
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FC is debatable. I can Clear and run a FF just as fast if not faster then most sins. Though I don't because I don't support powerleveling in any format. (I know because I was leveling myself doing it)XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »You forgot FC... Sin is way better for FC...
And TT is still potentially the most profitable instance. Though, I am not sure what prices on Sanct are like. I made 70m over the weekend, and that wasn't no-life farming.Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »Sin is barely better than archer now archers have Ataraxia, assuming you're FCing to sell.
I hate people who FC powerlevel.. It's like they don't care if they spawn more idiots as long as they profit from it...b:surrender[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »FC is debatable. I can Clear and run a FF just as fast if not faster then most sins. Though I don't because I don't support powerleveling in any format. (I know because I was leveling myself doing it)
I hate people who FC powerlevel.. It's like they don't care if they spawn more idiots as long as they profit from it...b:surrender
I am looking at it from a self-usage viewpoint. My archer can clear pretty fast. Even if I had stealth I do not believe that I would benefit it from it on my archer to any extent I do the sin.0 -
XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »I am looking at it from a self-usage viewpoint. My archer can clear pretty fast. Even if I had stealth I do not believe that I would benefit it from it on my archer to any extent I do the sin.
Of course not for a self benefit its much more exp/time effective to Solo Face Roll PV for 3xs the exp in half the time for archer....[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »Of course not for a self benefit its much more exp/time effective to Solo Face Roll PV for 3xs the exp in half the time for archer....
How much for an hour of hypers in PV? From my understanding, the accumulative xp for an hour of it might actually be less than FC.0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »On that note... What IS left to farm?.... AEU is running out of steam already as well as Warsong....
There really isn't anything left that hasn't been overfarmed.
-Treasure Maps
-Trophy Mode 69/79/Lunar
-World Bosses
-Mini WBs
-Card Bosses
-Tiger Event
-DT
-JR
-CoA
-Tourney
Of those sin is only particularly good at World Bosses and CoA.
I make around 100m a week just from JR + DT + Tigers and mostly catshop the rest of the week. I did used to farm around 20m an hour doing TM69 but the price of that is down to like 14m an hour these days (if you can solo).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »How much for an hour of hypers in PV? From my understanding, the accumulative xp for an hour of it might actually be less than FC.
Well considering you can only do 4 max a day with the Shroud 5k prestige PV item. (You need 3 other people to open PV for you)
Back when I did it (PV95 there was no PV100) I got 4.5mil exp per run and I could run it twice a day. I got 9mil exp in just 20minutes. Compared to the.... ~5mil exp you get in FF in 30mins. PV100 apparently gives about... 8mil a run(unconfirmed I haven't run it going off other sources/players) so that's 32mil exp you can get in about 30~45mins. Which dominates FF.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »Well considering you can only do 4 max a day with the Shroud 5k prestige PV item. (You need 3 other people to open PV for you)
Back when I did it (PV95 there was no PV100) I got 4.5mil exp per run and I could run it twice a day. I got 9mil exp in just 20minutes. Compared to the.... ~5mil exp you get in FF in 30mins. PV100 apparently gives about... 8mil a run(unconfirmed I haven't run it going off other sources/players) so that's 32mil exp you can get in about 30~45mins. Which dominates FF.
If you can only get 32m a day from it, it does not really dominate FC. I get up to 35m in FC a day when I am leveling. Think I pushed it upwards to 40m a few times.
I will add that I was splitting FC duties between my sin and archer to reduce the time it took to do it. And using a lot more activations a day rather than doing full only a couple full of FCs.0 -
XxZavxX - Raging Tide wrote: »If you can only get 32m a day from it, it does not really dominate FC. I get up to 35m in FC a day when I am leveling. Think I pushed it upwards to 40m a few times.
I will add that I was splitting FC duties between my sin and archer to reduce the time it took to do it. And using a lot more activations a day rather than doing full only a couple full of FCs.
I'm referring purely exp/time
In the time it takes you to run that many FF's for the same amount of EXP, you could've already done morai / cs / cube / maybe even bh for even more exp by then after only spending 30~45mins in PV.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
Solo PV100 is ~4m XP/run fully hypered.0
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Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »Solo PV100 is ~4m XP/run fully hypered.
How can it be less then what I got in PV95? That makes no sense.[SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
Ty Fon for the Siggy
The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute0 -
why does everyone say that sins only farm TT and Nirv? cuz all the sins on my server solo FC ijs0
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