is this still Pay to win at high lvls

24

Comments

  • Knownase - Heavens Tear
    Knownase - Heavens Tear Posts: 6,959 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    If you like fast and easy, it is pay to win. Now for merchanting you have to ask yourself a few questions.

    Such as:

    -How much money will I use to invest in when I first start out?

    -If I place a consignment shop for items, do I want to have a computer/laptop online 24/7 (or at least long periods of time during the day/night)?

    -Am I willing to put forth the effort of keeping track of prices, trends, items, and such as I merch?

    -Am I good with putting forth months and months of effort for items on this MMO?

    -Am I, overall, motivated to merchant at all so I can gain items on par to what cashshoppers can "easily" get with a paying job?

    -Will I be satisfied when I reach my goal?


    Personally, I just can't stand merching, I've done it, and made loads of money, but it can get extremely boring, and I rather be using time I put into merchanting in other things......like going to a overrated coffee shop.
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  • unceuncerave
    unceuncerave Posts: 471 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you like fast and easy, it is pay to win. Now for merchanting you have to ask yourself a few questions.

    Such as:

    -How much money will I use to invest in when I first start out?
    you can start with as little as 10k and build up from there
    -If I place a consignment shop for items, do I want to have a computer/laptop online 24/7 (or at least long periods of time during the day/night)?
    That is probably the only legitimate question to ask yourself
    -Am I willing to put forth the effort of keeping track of prices, trends, items, and such as I merch?
    There isn't much to track generally jsut follow all the other catshops doing the same thing.
    -Am I good with putting forth months and months of effort for items on this MMO?
    If you want to go endgame in this game then yes they will.
    -Am I, overall, motivated to merchant at all so I can gain items on par to what cashshoppers can "easily" get with a paying job?
    I'm sure a lot of them would be
    -Will I be satisfied when I reach my goal?
    Duh... you put time into something you will always be happy with the rewarded outcome. It's human nature.

    Personally, I just can't stand merching, I've done it, and made loads of money, but it can get extremely boring, and I rather be using time I put into merchanting in other things......like going to a overrated coffee shop.
    Do both
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you like fast and easy, it is pay to win. Now for merchanting you have to ask yourself a few questions.

    Such as:

    -How much money will I use to invest in when I first start out?

    -If I place a consignment shop for items, do I want to have a computer/laptop online 24/7 (or at least long periods of time during the day/night)?

    -Am I willing to put forth the effort of keeping track of prices, trends, items, and such as I merch?

    -Am I good with putting forth months and months of effort for items on this MMO?

    -Am I, overall, motivated to merchant at all so I can gain items on par to what cashshoppers can "easily" get with a paying job?

    -Will I be satisfied when I reach my goal?


    Personally, I just can't stand merching, I've done it, and made loads of money, but it can get extremely boring, and I rather be using time I put into merchanting in other things......like going to a overrated coffee shop.
    All good questions my faithful mount! If people are willing to invest the time into being a merchant they are willing to for the questions you asked above.
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  • gouraudpalm2
    gouraudpalm2 Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    it's still pay 2 win
  • alymara
    alymara Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Thanks to all the 100+ trolls for proving my point.

    Honesty only hurts the guilty.
    Bait/Lure, Enrage/Trap, Burn/Kill Those simple 3 steps have been killing Trolls for centuries. "Praylor Falcus"
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    alymara wrote: »
    Thanks to all the 100+ trolls for proving my point.

    Honesty only hurts the guilty.

    You've clearly never seen this then have you child.

    MERCHANT GUIDE
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • alymara
    alymara Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You've clearly never seen this then have you child.

    MERCHANT GUIDE


    Totally off point to the OP's question. As my post was about the differences in the game and the imbalance of the CS addict and the casual Cs'er.

    Please refrain from nit picking another post because you disagree, the mature response is to provide a counter argument to the OP's question. All Flaming another persons post proves you lack a valid response and are butt hurt at something they said and only know how to reply in a venomous immature manner.

    The OP did not ask could they merchant 24/7 and make money, they asked had the game become more P2W than before. I provided examples and personal experiances of how they had changed.

    Please try to grow up and respond to poster questions with realvent information and not try to protect your seemly fragile e-peen.
    Bait/Lure, Enrage/Trap, Burn/Kill Those simple 3 steps have been killing Trolls for centuries. "Praylor Falcus"
  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    alymara wrote: »
    Totally off point to the OP's question. As my post was about the differences in the game and the imbalance of the CS addict and the casual Cs'er.

    Please refrain from nit picking another post because you disagree, the mature response is to provide a counter argument to the OP's question. All Flaming another persons post proves you lack a valid response and are butt hurt at something they said and only know how to reply in a venomous immature manner.

    Read your own post
    alymara wrote: »
    First of all the people saying you can merchant your way to what you want, forget to mention that you have to be Level 100+ to get items that sell (Notice their levels on post) Most of whom glitched , hypered and powerleveled those toons to get access to the higher end stuff to sell.


    Of Course the "SO CALLED MERCHANTS" will come and say it's not true. They would never dare Start a new account and play a legit character with no help from friends or their own characters acting as sugar mommie or daddy to their new character. They would quickly see how it is so much different now than it was years ago. SO take their hyperbole as what it is.

    If do plan to play, DO as I have done and find a Legit guild(?? what the heck its a legit guild?), accept you will not be able to TW unless you cheat, and you and your new guild will never be considered by the elitist buy your way to the top clicks as relevant. Turn off world chat as the prices are akin to small country's budgets not realist of a game economy. But accept that you can still enjoy good time with legit players and enjoy that sense of accomplishment that the game is intended to instill.



    Butt hurt much?,valid argument?,which was your valid argument over accusing someone to have glitched/powerlevelled ? troll lol lol
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    alymara wrote: »
    Totally off point to the OP's question. As my post was about the differences in the game and the imbalance of the CS addict and the casual Cs'er.

    Please refrain from nit picking another post because you disagree, the mature response is to provide a counter argument to the OP's question. All Flaming another persons post proves you lack a valid response and are butt hurt at something they said and only know how to reply in a venomous immature manner.

    The OP did not ask could they merchant 24/7 and make money, they asked had the game become more P2W than before. I provided examples and personal experiances of how they had changed.

    Please try to grow up and respond to poster questions with realvent information and not try to protect your seemly fragile e-peen.

    See here's where you go assuming and making posts without reading the entire thread it seems. It go on topic of merchanting, because this game was never pay2win unless you're too lazy. People have been merchanting for YEARS on this game. I proved valid arguements but you can't even acknowledge them. You blatantly assume its impossible for anyone to do. Please use some more braincells before trolling.
    [SIGPIC]http://i48.tinypic.com/2r61kw3.jpg[/SIGPIC]
    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Its funny how those "legit players" talk about elitism and stuff when they consider themselves the only "legit players" while all others are cheaters/powerlevelled nubs with sugar daddies -- not to talk about using a faceless account to post in the forum to look even more "legit" b:bye
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • alymara
    alymara Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Read your own post



    Butt hurt much?,valid argument?,which was your valid argument over accusing someone to have glitched/powerlevelled ? troll lol lol


    Learn to read and understand, I said "MOST" not "ALL" unless you are admitting to being guilty of the said offense it should not have bothered you, But thanks for pointing out to everyone that your are guilty of such as otherwise you would not find it so hurtful.

    Legit: Meaning Players or Guilds that look down upon players Glitching/hypering or otherwise Powerleveling characters and then using Cash Shop to buy rep and gears to out fit them thus bypassing the normal means to acquire such things.

    Really do all 100+'s realize how funny it is to all the legit players that you are so butt hurt at my post that you keep outting yourselves hiding behind cliche' juvenile responses. Thanks to all the guilty dogs of the offense I pointed out for barking up and letting everyone know how you got those 100 + levels you feel the need to defend now.


    Last post here as the dogs gonna get rabid on this one and none has provided even a mildly stimulating argument to warrant further interaction.
    Bait/Lure, Enrage/Trap, Burn/Kill Those simple 3 steps have been killing Trolls for centuries. "Praylor Falcus"
  • gouraudpalm2
    gouraudpalm2 Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    But it still's pay 2 win
  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Lol getting to 100 without CS its no big deal, you really think "MOST" of players hyper levelled to 100?,you're clueless and you're the one who started accusing "MOST" of the players to be cheaters,not me,mr. butt hurt troll b:bye
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • karmelia
    karmelia Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    GandelfYoung - Harshlands wrote: »
    I quit this game a while ago for FW which u should try if u havent. But I miss this game a little and was wondering if it was as pay 2 win as it was like 6 months ago?

    If you pvp, yes.

    If youy pve it don't relly matter.
    Frankieraye said : "we can promise that we will work to improve all facets of community, engineering, and customer service to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again."


    (We are still waiting to see any improvements or changes beign implemented. More empty promises from PWI?)
  • ShamandaIie - Heavens Tear
    ShamandaIie - Heavens Tear Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sorry but needed fixing. As far as PVP is concerned, R9 is still king due to certain guaranteed adds such as GOF and Advanced Purge.

    To be honest I never understood why people would spend the kind of dough it takes to get R9 just to do PVE alone anyway. Nirvana (1st & 2nd cast) was always more than enough. And ya... game is still definitely P2W. Don't let those players who have been merching for years and are currently sitting on vast amounts of wealth try to paint you a picture of how easy it will be for new comers to just jump into the market and merch their R9 in a jiffy.

    No, it's not. GoF and Adv purge is only for archers and BMs/sins which by the way is debatable for sins. You can come out swinging at 5.0 if you get 2x int on daggers with 40 attack levels.
    For all the casters it's pretty damn comparable to R9.
    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/28514 <= R9 m.sword.
    http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34776 <= 3rd stage glaive.

    2250 - 2534 m.atk at +12 for R9 m.sword.
    2294 - 2878 m.atk at +12 for third stage NV.

    Not only does it refine more, has 10 more attack levels and can get better stats than the stats on R9. It also costs less than a third of what the weapon would cost you.

    The set for R9 gives you +30 attack, +20 def and 1% crit.
    Set for nirv gives you +20 attack, +15 def and 500/700/900 HP depending on the set.

    Nv can be combined with the R9 weapon AND belt to give you the 10 defense level bonus if you wanted to since the weapon isn't even a part of the set for third stage nirv. And if you don't want to get R9 at all you can use the warsong belt with your nirv set which gives you more defense that would essentially be better than the 5 defense level gain from the R9 set.

    Getting 4 sockets on armors is easy as hell just needs patience since it's only 1m per reroll, a def ess and 8 badges. So a lunar and a warsong run for each reroll and 10% chance on each roll to get 4 sockets and the third stage nirvana armors even have better base ele/phys defense on them.
    So yeah, only archers, BM's and sins (sins don't even really count since most are lame APS gear with R9 daggers) have a significant advantage over third cast nv, Barbs not even so much since cata barbs/tanks or w/e either use a pan gu axe or them fancy def-level R8 recast axes.

    So yeah, you can't get GoF or Spirit black hole on them, but out of the 2 classes that this would affect the most the other...whatever number of remaining classes we have benefit significantly and would be up to par with R9 players if they went for third cast nirvana.

    So yeah, as far as end game goes unless you're a BM/Sin desperate for GoF or an archer that's desperate for purge on your bow. You'd be silly to get R9 if you never plan (or realistically could achieve) to recast and then going third cast on your R9.

    Edit: To add to all of this, also one tiny fact that I left out which this topic seems to once in a long forgotten age to be about. The entire third cast nirv set is farm-able with ease in comparison to how long it would take to farm for the coins to get R9.
  • laloner
    laloner Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    This thread is pay2whine on both sides.
    AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter
  • Banndit - Heavens Tear
    Banndit - Heavens Tear Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Its only my 2nd mmo, but isn't it the case that this game is cheap to play? Obviously r9 is bloody expensive, but think about it. For most of what we want, they can be obtained easily by most by cashshopping, farming or merchanting.

    According to players on the forum, its not hard to be overpowered even. You can farm 5aps sin +10 there in 3 months, and you can merchant rank9 in 6 months here.

    Imo, being smart means you will get there faster but being educated means you can do what you can't figure out for yourself or what you may have overlooked if its simple enough, when it comes to west arch catshoping.

    In the case of merchanting, the amount that are being made by people and the large price difference of items in catshops could be indication that more could be made by players who have not yet learned how to merchant, understand what things are worth and how to price them and basic economics.

    These sort of things are easy enough that it can be learned by a 15 yr old in no time. Most though I'm guessing wont' learn because they falsely believe its too hard (like the 2 new boss...) or don't know what they looking for or where/how to find the right infomation. The hard part is competing with other merchants which potentially could be alot of pvp fun.
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You didn't read the part where I included the word farm in there. You forget millions are generated every day just from BH 100. At least 10 players every day get an excitement card, at least 20 get ecstasy, at least 100 get mirages. And yes even merchants spend a small portion of their money. Just not as much as others.

    You don't sound like a stupid person, so idk why you post stupid s**t. Unless you want to run around with full Nirvana and no refine above 8 (which lol let's face it, is not "win"), someone have to spend money for your R9 and orbs to refine.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • TempleSlave - Lost City
    TempleSlave - Lost City Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    This game is for the hopelessly addicted, for both the merchant-farmers and massive cash-shoppers. I don't consider this game Free2Play. You need to spend large amounts of cash or waste a major portion of your life to get end game gear that isn't even necessary for anything in-game except for people to stand around for the envy or awe of everyone else.
    I love puppies.... and sharp objects. b:pleased
  • CatManDoo - Dreamweaver
    CatManDoo - Dreamweaver Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    well daa, its MMORPGb:bye
  • Hexalot - Dreamweaver
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver Posts: 871 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    ShamandaIie - Heavens Tear wrote: »

    So yeah, as far as end game goes unless you're a BM/Sin desperate for GoF or an archer that's desperate for purge on your bow. You'd be silly to get R9 if you never plan (or realistically could achieve) to recast and then going third cast on your R9.

    Someone forgot about Seekers and Barbs it seems (yeah I know you tried to "explain away" Barbs by saying that they use Pangu or R8 Recast axes but that's just nonsense. A Cata Barb's "true end game" will always be full R9) b:laugh

    I'll give you that Casters in general don't benefit from R9 all that much compared to just getting G16 Nirvana. But for any physical damage class (excluding archers of course for obvious reasons) interested in PK/PVP... and assuming they have the funds... they would be stoned stupid to bypass R9's GOF for any alternative add that 3rd cast Nirvana has to offer.

    I have a R9 Seeker and as you know the class are basically skill spammers. Therefore damage per hit is extremely important to me... damage per second is secondary. And really the only way I'm competing against other R9's in TW is with pure spike damage. The fact that Nirvana 3rd cast may have slightly higher weapon damage is meaningless to me since, without that 20% chance to zerk (and even better when it stacks with crit), I'm not bypassing the charms of half the OP geared people out there.

    There is a youtube video floating around showing a R9 +12 Barb arma zerk critting a full R9 Seeker with defense level buffs for 25K. Lets see +12 G16 3rd Cast Nirvana Barb pull that off. b:chuckle
  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    TempleSlave - Lost City wrote: »
    This game is for the hopelessly addicted, for both the merchant-farmers and massive cash-shoppers. I don't consider this game Free2Play. You need to spend large amounts of cash or waste a major portion of your life to get end game gear that isn't even necessary for anything in-game except for people to stand around for the envy or awe of everyone else.

    There is no game out there that gives you "End-Game" Gear for cheap,end game gear its supposed to be expensive or everyone would have it don't you think?

    Why everyone when talk about "Play" doesn't consider the WHOLE game not just the ultra-end-game-gear,doesn't "nubs"TT90/99 play the game too?

    You're all just obsessed with with end game,as if you need to be R9 to do anything at all.
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • _Bloody_Fox_ - Sanctuary
    _Bloody_Fox_ - Sanctuary Posts: 993 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    It is pretty much pay to win.

    You can merch your butt off for a month for something alot of players can get in a day with their credit card.
    Facebook.com/foxi187
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  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Can someone explain me what the heck "win" means?
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary
    Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary Posts: 3,034 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Can someone explain me what the heck "win" means?

    Probably God mode a.k.a. killing everything in your sight by face - rolling the keyboard.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=14516063001&dateline=1364756666[/SIGPIC] Ty Silvy :)
  • Lolgasmic - Raging Tide
    Lolgasmic - Raging Tide Posts: 1,315 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Doqui - Raging Tide wrote: »
    it's Pay to be lazy, work to win b:bye

    this is right

    but in my cases, i learned of the easiest 'work' way after i was 'lazy' and bought zen.

    such as the Earn Zen surveys, that would have saved me some cash

    - but yes, i know you meant like, farming TT for mirages and golds
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
    Started playing on March 2010
  • BerserkBeast - Sanctuary
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Probably God mode a.k.a. killing everything in your sight by face - rolling the keyboard.

    I think you're talking about GMs then,there is no class with "maxed" gear that can do that against even equipped foes.
    The only way to beat a troll is....to troll him back b:angry
  • Lolgasmic - Raging Tide
    Lolgasmic - Raging Tide Posts: 1,315 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Someone forgot about Seekers and Barbs it seems (yeah I know you tried to "explain away" Barbs by saying that they use Pangu or R8 Recast axes but that's just nonsense. A Cata Barb's "true end game" will always be full R9) b:laugh

    I'll give you that Casters in general don't benefit from R9 all that much compared to just getting G16 Nirvana. But for any physical damage class (excluding archers of course for obvious reasons) interested in PK/PVP... and assuming they have the funds... they would be stoned stupid to bypass R9's GOF for any alternative add that 3rd cast Nirvana has to offer.

    I have a R9 Seeker and as you know the class are basically skill spammers. Therefore damage per hit is extremely important to me... damage per second is secondary. And really the only way I'm competing against other R9's in TW is with pure spike damage. The fact that Nirvana 3rd cast may have slightly higher weapon damage is meaningless to me since, without that 20% chance to zerk (and even better when it stacks with crit), I'm not bypassing the charms of half the OP geared people out there.

    There is a youtube video floating around showing a R9 +12 Barb arma zerk critting a full R9 Seeker with defense level buffs for 25K. Lets see +12 G16 3rd Cast Nirvana Barb pull that off. b:chuckle


    Saw a barb last night, his name was Vako on the RT server. He had the 2nd cast vana axes +10 and at least 2 sets of nirvana armor, the chest and legs. a lunar cape. and deicides.

    i dont know how much hp he had, but he sure did hit like a wall of bricks (we just did a straight up duel, no spark, no running, just stand there and use your skills and auto attack

    i got him to 2/3 his hp by the time he beat me

    im r8+4
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
    Started playing on March 2010
  • Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary
    Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary Posts: 3,034 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think you're talking about GMs then,there is no class with "maxed" gear that can do that against even equipped foes.

    The new 3rd recast is pretty close to it and common mortals will die like flies.
    [SIGPIC]http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=14516063001&dateline=1364756666[/SIGPIC] Ty Silvy :)
  • ShamandaIie - Heavens Tear
    ShamandaIie - Heavens Tear Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Someone forgot about Seekers and Barbs it seems (yeah I know you tried to "explain away" Barbs by saying that they use Pangu or R8 Recast axes but that's just nonsense. A Cata Barb's "true end game" will always be full R9) b:laugh

    I'll give you that Casters in general don't benefit from R9 all that much compared to just getting G16 Nirvana. But for any physical damage class (excluding archers of course for obvious reasons) interested in PK/PVP... and assuming they have the funds... they would be stoned stupid to bypass R9's GOF for any alternative add that 3rd cast Nirvana has to offer.

    I have a R9 Seeker and as you know the class are basically skill spammers. Therefore damage per hit is extremely important to me... damage per second is secondary. And really the only way I'm competing against other R9's in TW is with pure spike damage. The fact that Nirvana 3rd cast may have slightly higher weapon damage is meaningless to me since, without that 20% chance to zerk (and even better when it stacks with crit), I'm not bypassing the charms of half the OP geared people out there.

    There is a youtube video floating around showing a R9 +12 Barb arma zerk critting a full R9 Seeker with defense level buffs for 25K. Lets see +12 G16 3rd Cast Nirvana Barb pull that off. b:chuckle

    You're wrong, who are you to say who's weapon is true end-game. I'd rather have a barb with an extra 10 JoSD's than a barb with a GoF axe pulling a cata. Also no, a full +12 Third cast nirvana barb won't hit 25k on that set-up on a seeker. But if you want to stroke your e-peen for having a high hit on HA classes on a barb, then sure go R9. But it still doesn't change the fact that if you play your class right and target the right classes (in TW or PK) that third cast nv is just as effective. If a +12 R9 barb or +12 third cast NV barb drop an arma on an LA or AA class regardless of GoF if they crit they will most likely one shot them, which the game isn't about in the first place. Walking up to someone and one-shotting them isn't end game. Knowing how to play is part of end-game not just relying on one shotting others b:shutup

    And Seekers aren't supposed to be main DDs in my opinion, they're support. With their debuffs and all sorts of fancy stuff they can cast from a long range they're better off supporting their DDs than acting as a DD. And I don't know who you're trying to attack on your seeker but if you're going to have a seeker with third stage nv dual swords hitting an AA class I'm pretty sure you will most likely be able to take them down, especially with that fancy new skill that gives you another..40 or something attack levels.

    And then you have the choice, IF you are rich enough and really want the GoF you can go for R9. BUT before Seekers (good example since you already mentioned them) were nothing to be afraid of because their R8 weapon sucks and their second cast NV weapons suck as well and the cost from going from either one of those two to R9 or even R8 recast (which you'd have to get lucky to get GoF on or SS) was way too high.
    But now with their new skill that gives attack levels (45 attack levels extra if you've got 5 pieces of third stage nv and the weap) + that numbness skill that gives 30 def levels + 15 from a third stage nv set and you can QPQ the def level debuff from that skill on yourself. Yeah, 135 attack levels on a G16 weapon that refines higher than R9 and starts out with higher base stats isn't anything to scoff at. You may lack GoF but you will take out most AA classes with that set-up. So you don't NEED R9, either learn which classes to target and be offensive and when to be supportive.

    I'm not sure if you yourself have R9 or you're just trying to hopelessly defend your opinion that it's "pay 2 win" or that Third cast NV can't be compared to R9. But it is very much comparable to R9. And it also brings something to the game that we didn't have before, which is at least a balanced selection of end-game gears.

    R9 > 3rd stage NV > Recast R8 > 2nd stage NV > R8.
    If you take out 3rd stage NV then the difference or "leap" you take from Recast R8 to R9 is huge. Whitest now with third cast NV, R9 isn't even that big of a deal if you decide to get it or not. You can play on an even field with all r9 users easily. Which is pretty much what this topic was about.

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