Sage or Demon?

Posts: 310 Arc User
edited July 2012 in Cleric
I can't see the difference between them too.

I mean, Demon has a 4 secs rez, and that seems sooo important, it's like in a sec I revive you, but we now have Mystic, so it's not always useful.

So I can't really make up my mind. I've read many threads, It seems like best option would be Sage due to more healing/support style. But to be honest, spending only 100 mana on IH it's priceless... that would make healing free, besides the usual AoE heal and stuffs.

So... what do you guys think?

Can I have opinions on high lvls cleric?
Post edited by Zorish - Harshlands on

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  • Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I went demon on my cleric because you when you IH you give the person MP as well so if your healing someone that uses alot of MP(like a barb) you keep there MP up while healing so they don't need to pot as much for MP.


    You also give yourself and another person chi with 2 of your demon buffs.



    Kay
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Does anyone know which skills gives MP back to whom?

    I can honestly say that Sage fits my playstyle a LOT more, but Mana costs seems so damn high in Sage, while Demon has IB and Celestial Guardian's Seal to recover MP.

    300 MP from IB and 900, which makes healing free basically with a decent macro.

    But I can't find if this happens to me, target or both.

    I can see the responsiveness Sage Demon would have: like using a Vanguard Spirit on a squishy that is going to be hit, or giving Magic Shell to increase damage from caster classes.

    b:angry I can't decide!
  • Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I struggled to choose between demon and sage on my first Cleric, I ended up going with demon because at the time, demon IH was an amazing skill for barb tanks, the res was handy in a tight situation and I wanted more crit rate (2% from demon metal mastery) but now I have since made another Cleric which I plan to go sage on because I want it to be totally support based, 10% extra HP restore with IH, 50% chance to gain 30 chi when using Wield Thunder, additional time added to the mag def and phy def debuffs which is good for Caster Nirvana/BH, additional range added to res and CHB, 30% extra chi when casting Stream of Rejuvenation and of course Master Li's Technique.

    And like Kay said, when using demon IH you give the target the 300mp recover not yourself so it still costs you 400mp per cast but I wouldn't agree that someone should go demon to give people chi with 2 buffs since both are 25% so it would require a lot of spamming and at 265mp per cast it is not really worth it.

    Does anyone know which skills gives MP back to whom?

    I can honestly say that Sage fits my playstyle a LOT more, but Mana costs seems so damn high in Sage, while Demon has IB and Celestial Guardian's Seal to recover MP.

    300 MP from IB and 900, which makes healing free basically with a decent macro.

    But I can't find if this happens to me, target or both.

    Like I said, IH gives the target you are healing the 300mp per cast not yourself, and Celestial Guardian's Seal is a very rare skill so you can't rely on that to recover your mp. It is cheaper and more sense to just use the level 75 herbs.

    Look here to compare skills between Sage & Demon
  • Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Does anyone know which skills gives MP back to whom?

    I can honestly say that Sage fits my playstyle a LOT more, but Mana costs seems so damn high in Sage, while Demon has IB and Celestial Guardian's Seal to recover MP.

    300 MP from IB and 900, which makes healing free basically with a decent macro.

    But I can't find if this happens to me, target or both.

    I can see the responsiveness Sage Demon would have: like using a Vanguard Spirit on a squishy that is going to be hit, or giving Magic Shell to increase damage from caster classes.

    b:angry I can't decide!

    if your talking about the demon blessing of the purehearted, IH, and chromatic healing beam(all give MP while healing), HP and MP combined it is only to the target not both.

    Vangaurd spirit & Magic shell gives your target and yourself Chi when cast.

    plus Purify doesn't cost Chi when cast in demon.

    but if Sage is more you play style go for sage, i went for demon because it was more of my play style
  • Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Since the classic answer is what do you think is best , what are the differences and what do you prefer along with your ability to purchase , i'll say search the countless thread that exist already.


    Short answer :



















    Demon
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
  • Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    if your talking about the demon blessing of the purehearted, IH, and chromatic healing beam(all give MP while healing), HP and MP combined it is only to the target not both.

    Demon Blessing of the Purehearted isn't really a valid skill to bring into the mix, it is quite pointless. Demon Chromatic Healing Beam heals an additional 600 HP not MP
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Point is I don't know endgame.

    Never been in GV, Nirvana, etc, etc. Maybe people "prefer" Demon Clerics.

    It's like being a Veno, everyone wants sage usually. So even if it's my play style, finding squads for using my cleric is more important.

    If I go Sage and people prefer Demon, I won't be using any skills. Many people like Demon more, so I can adapt and go that way.

    We all know servers are elitist. If you don't have +X weapon you don't get Caster Nirvana, etc. So beside my personal preference I'll have to adapt to what the market wants.

    So, what does the Market wants nowadays?
  • Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    The market wants a Cleric full stop. It doesn't matter if you are sage or demon, as a Cleric you are wanted. The choice is yours really.
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    No idea yet haahha.

    I can't make up my mind. 4 secs rez seems so important when there's a casualty, but buffs on VS and MS
  • Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Go with whatever suits your playstyle.

    Also, MP should not be an issue at all when choosing culti. Just suck down MP food. It's not like it costs that much.



    I personally went demon due to 3 sec res, puri costing no chi, and it being clearly the superior choice if I ever decide to go metal maging among other less obvious reasons.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Go with whatever suits your playstyle.

    Also, MP should not be an issue at all when choosing culti. Just suck down MP food. It's not like it costs that much.



    I personally went demon due to 3 sec res, puri costing no chi, and it being clearly the superior choice if I ever decide to go metal maging among other less obvious reasons.

    IB giving MP is bonus, but the half Rez is just so much to ignore. 8 Secs to rez in battle is way too much time unless squads is like godly geared, but 4 (less with chan) makes it so fast.

    But well, we lose -chan on Wellspring that has higher chan and not 1.2
  • Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    IB giving MP is bonus, but the half Rez is just so much to ignore. 8 Secs to rez in battle is way too much time unless squads is like godly geared, but 4 (less with chan) makes it so fast.

    But well, we lose -chan on Wellspring that has higher chan and not 1.2

    For have both i prefer demon cleric, like someone said previously no one will ask you if you are sage or demon to take you in a squad and don't choose demon or sage base on the cost of mp, cause seriously i don't see difference on mp cost on both of my clerics.

    The skills i love as demon are:

    -Ress: for the 3 secs, its a huge difference in PvE, TW and PvP.
    -Purify: no need chi.
    -wellspring surge, vanguart spirit and or magic shell are awsome to build chi really fast.
    -spirit gift: additional 150% to your magic attack for 10 seconds, so no need go in metal form to DD good and still can heal.
    -Plume shell: cost half chi.
    -Stream of rejuvenation: give 100% p.def and heal, some people will say that sage Vanguard Spirit do add 100% p.def, but in situation like TW i prefer SoR cause that stack heal AND the p.def buff and not only the p.def.

    Demon cost way less chi than sage and its also more fast to get chi. For wellspring the difference is 0.3 seconds i have it demon and sage and tbh i don't see the difference when i cast it on demon and sage on the speed, but i notice the difference that demon give more chi. On ress 3 seconds make a huge difference but on wellspring trust me the 0.3 sec don't make difference, 0.3 its not even half of a second.

    Good luck on your choice, but like people say its your choice a sage cleric is not bad as a demon cleric is not bad some people prefer demon other sage, no bad choice, choose for what you personally want, i just write the skills i love demon and why.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I see good points on the building chi part, and the reduced casting on Rez. Tbh I thought IB was on me, not on target, so only wasting 100 mp each heal sounded good.

    And I see benefits on gaining chi so fast and Purify free, that's HUGE even for AoE Grinding, because no more worries about sparks and stuffs.

    I shall read again, but Demon so far looks attractive by most important skills like Rez mostly and Purify free. I can die and be purifying already.
  • Posts: 791 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I can't see the difference between them too.

    I mean, Demon has a 4 secs rez, and that seems sooo important, it's like in a sec I revive you, but we now have Mystic, so it's not always useful.

    So I can't really make up my mind. I've read many threads, It seems like best option would be Sage due to more healing/support style. But to be honest, spending only 100 mana on IH it's priceless... that would make healing free, besides the usual AoE heal and stuffs.

    So... what do you guys think?

    Can I have opinions on high lvls cleric?

    Well I have a demon cleric on LC and a sage on private server and even i cant tell you definitively which one is better! b:chuckle

    I wouldnt think too much about the IH mana recovery because unless ur self healing you wont gain any mana back. And as has been said before nobody is too fussed about whether a cleric is demon or sage- they're quite happy to get either! I dont notice any huge difference in chi gain- demon skills may gain a bit more chi but sage chi skill compensates for that pretty much.

    Personally i prefer my demon cleric overall. As a support cleric its perfectly adequate and they're quite a bit more capable offensively as well. (I love the faster revive too!)To be perfectly honest there are only maybe 2-3 sage skills that i miss when playing demon- pdef buff, chi skill and sometimes the regen buff. The pdef buff does make a significant difference in support with its pdef bonus- demon stream give a similar pdef bonus but the longer channeling makes it more unwieldy for me in pvp.

    The regen buff i also find useful with its heal over time- i sometimes macro that with pdef buff when i dual char in instance so i can get continual heals without worrying about my cleric getting agro etc. Probably not something most people would need actually and its also worth bearing in mind the lvl 11 version of buff skill its quite tricky to get too.

    2-3 skills may not sound like much but i find my play style is really different in group pvp. Sage its almost completely centred on support/healing (with pdef buff playing a large role) - demon leaning more towards support/assist attack.

    Demon skill benefits have already been pretty much listed so i wont bother going over those again.
    --Retired--

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  • Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    I chose demon and I never regretted at it. By the way, the reason that got me into demon is Revive. It's is just priceless when squad is almost wiped, and you can get the tank back up really fast. Keep in mind that mystic is not always in the same squad with you. (Sage revive is pretty much not as useful as demon revive in instances, you don't often let your squad member to run 40m away from you then he dies and you res him, right? After he res, you still have to come up to him to heal and buff)

    Stream of Rejuvenation is awesome. Healing and buffing an extra 100% phy. def. simultaneously make demon SoR such great. I understand it takes 2.5 sec to channel, but with nowadays -chan gears, it's no big deal. (I love Sage Vanguard spirit as well since you can buff the tank 100% extra phy. def. while he's pulling without getting aggro)

    Ironheart Blessing gives the healed 300MP, so the tank can concentrate on tanking without having to bother to use MP pots, isn't that so convenient? (Sage IH heals more, but after all the stacks you make on the tank, you cannot really see the difference, though it only costs 100MP in compared to the demon one which costs 400MP)

    Wellspring Surge is pretty much the same thing no matter if you choose demon or sage.

    Those are the important skills you use the most as a cleric. Yet, I gotta say I LOVE sage buffs. There's 1 buff (either Celestial Guardian Seal or Spirit Gift) of sage that can heal 1200HP *or 900HP I dont quite remember* but the awesome thing is that you can basically use that skill to heal your tank while he's pulling without even getting aggro from him.

    So either sage or demon, as long as you know when to wellspring/IH/SoR/CHB/BB, you will always be wanted in a squad. Sage is more for healing, demon is a little hybrid since it can give chi (through Vanguard and Magic Shell) and MP to the target.

    Good luck on finding the path that matches your style b:cute
    Insanity b:thanks
  • Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Yeah probably the best advice people have said is find your own play style. I worked this out, I want my Cleric to be full support when I am in a squad so I am choosing Sage because I personally find the skills more useful for my play style.

    Someone said that you don't let a squad member get 40m away... Well they do it on their own accord lately, what with sins stealthing FF/BH all the time that res would come in handy to heal at a distance and still keep people alive that are close to you. That is all I can really think of in terms of putting that added range to use. I do love demon res but I'm not going to pick demon just for that again.
  • Posts: 1,033 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Short answer :Demon

    This.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    This.

    Agreed.
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Demon Res is more complicated than 3s difference. Once you throw -ch gear into the equation; that 3s difference is lowered. Sages could use Magic shell to get an additional -20% ch for 10s. This doesn't make up the difference in using the Res alone; but it can help with heal, rebuff, and getting BB back up or whatever. I love Sage Res. I've been able to avoid many mobs, and long hikes (res through walls) with it.

    There isn't a single class I've played (7 now), where there's a clear winner of which path is better. This question for every class always ends up in going back and forth endlessly. The question shouldn't even be asked or even answered. This should be the reply:

    http://ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    tweakz wrote: »
    Demon Res is more complicated than 3s difference. Once you throw -ch gear into the equation; that 3s difference is lowered. Sages could use Magic shell to get an additional -20% ch for 10s. This doesn't make up the difference in using the Res alone; but it can help with heal, rebuff, and getting BB back up or whatever. I love Sage Res. I've been able to avoid many mobs, and long hikes (res through walls) with it.

    There isn't a single class I've played (7 now), where there's a clear winner of which path is better. This question for every class always ends up in going back and forth endlessly. The question shouldn't even be asked or even answered. This should be the reply:

    http://ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

    And then there was a time I can finally agree with you 100%
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Demon rez too op, went Demon, doing quest and stuffs to get there b:victory
  • Posts: 388 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    tweakz wrote: »
    This should be the reply:
    http://ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

    Well I did link it but it must have gone un-noticed
    Demon rez too op, went Demon, doing quest and stuffs to get there b:victory

    Well congratz on making your mind up, enjoy and have fun. I personally wouldn't have made the choice on just 1 skill but it is up to you.
  • Posts: 1,225 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I personally went sage due to the increase of survivability with a stronger plume shell, a stronger IH, sage vanguard, sage rez which permits me to rez in situations that would have proven unfavorable otherwise. I also like the increased consistent damage that sage allows, as well as its own chi gaining abilities. Sage has many good qualities, but then again, so does demon. All in all, it depends upon your playstyle, and which one suits you more..whether that be to increase a strength or to compensate for a weakness some. That choice is up to you.

    That said, I actually agree with tweakz on this one. Check the link, decide for yourself which one is favorable for you, and go with that. Don't let us in the forums influence your decision on this. We all chose what was best for ourselves, and you should do the same. I, as a sage cleric have no problem finding a squad. Others as demon clerics also have no problem. One of my friends who showed me the ropes in this game went demon. I myself, became a sage. Both of us are good clerics, and both of us have gotten invited to squads. That said, go with what suits you best, and good luck with your decision.
    "Male Player using female toon. Please don't flirt with me."

    Need to see the cleric guide for questions, comments, or concerns? Just copy and paste the link.
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  • Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I personally went sage due to the increase of survivability with a stronger plume shell, a stronger IH, sage vanguard, sage rez which permits me to rez in situations that would have proven unfavorable otherwise. I also like the increased consistent damage that sage allows, as well as its own chi gaining abilities. Sage has many good qualities, but then again, so does demon. All in all, it depends upon your playstyle, and which one suits you more..whether that be to increase a strength or to compensate for a weakness some. That choice is up to you.

    That said, I actually agree with tweakz on this one. Check the link, decide for yourself which one is favorable for you, and go with that. Don't let us in the forums influence your decision on this. We all chose what was best for ourselves, and you should do the same. I, as a sage cleric have no problem finding a squad. Others as demon clerics also have no problem. One of my friends who showed me the ropes in this game went demon. I myself, became a sage. Both of us are good clerics, and both of us have gotten invited to squads. That said, go with what suits you best, and good luck with your decision.

    To be honest, I can still come back, but sometimes rez proves to be more useful.

    It's like I really can't decide, but I DO find useful to give mana back to your tank. It's nor my job, but anyways. I'll see.

    I can always roll another cleric b:chuckle

    I won't deny that Sage VS and the others 11 buffs are awesome! You can make thins so easier, but I can only find it useful in certain situations. If a squishy gets hit, I think I'll always heal first than put a buff on them.

    On the rez part... I mean, you can rez from afar, but your heals are still 25 mts, so how is rezzing from afar useful when you can't heal them anyways?
  • Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I think cleric might have the most balanced culti of any class. Except maybe archers where their sage/demon culti is barely different.

    People say "sage for support" and I disagree with with that because both culti's offer support. Look at demon rez and its a support skills because you need to spend 3 seconds less time away from healing the tank. I love demon IH because as a barb not having to spam mp pots while tanking means I can focus on actual aggro and my job. As a cleric I will occasionally spam my vanguard and shell on the bm between mobs to chi him up if he just HF'd and be the "chi cleric!". And Demon SoR is excellent to finish a stack with right before a pull so the tank runs out with thousands of heals per second and a 100% def boost.

    But!... Sage IH heals 15-25% more. Not a huge issue for me since my IHs are pretty strong but for some, its needed. Sage has a faster Wellspring and a faster purify, which are both great "ohshtTheyAboutToDie" skills and being faster would be beautiful. Sage Guardian Seal allows you to heal the tank in the middle of a pull or before he has grabbed aggro.

    Then you'll also hear "demon if you want to DD or PK" which I sort of agree with. I liked that using my seals didn't penalize me with slow or muddle and make me have to purify after. I like that Wield Thunder debuffs for itself, and then you can combo with cyclone, or debuff with elemental seal first and do more amounts of damage.

    Overall, look at the skills you use the most. Try to find combo's you'd use for instance Silent Seal->Elemental Seal->Wield Thunder->Cyclone. And then just compare them sage and demon. Most the skill bonuses can be found on different skills but are the same bonus, for instance SoR's def bonus for demon is Sage's Vanguard def bonus. They both have an mp heal...
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    I personally went sage due to the increase of survivability

    I personally don't feel more weak on my demon cleric than my sage, i think survivability is more about build and gears, but it's my own opinion.
    I think cleric might have the most balanced culti of any class. Except maybe archers where their sage/demon culti is barely different.

    But!... Sage IH heals 15-25% more. Not a huge issue for me since my IHs are pretty strong but for some, its needed.

    It's 10%, but i agree, for myself it's not needed as pure magic my heals are already really strong.

    For PvE, both sage and demon are good, tbh any good cleric would be able do a good job with skill lvl10, so in a way i personally prefer demon for the fact i get chi faster, i can give chi and mp to people in my squad. (i seriously love see the people be surprise by the fact that a cleric can give chi, look like not many people know it beside demon clerics)

    For TW, demon all the way for me for chi and ress, yes sage have a awesome purify with no CD, but many time on my sage cleric i wasn't able to purify in TW cause out of chi, same for plume shell, sometimes i can't cast it cause out of chi, on my sage i need use white tea (or other chi pots) to be able to purify as much as i want and be able to plume shell constantly, which for me a chi pot is a waste cause i can't use other pots who could save my life (sutra, IG, pan gu's essence, dew star of protection etc.), on my demon im never out of chi, i can purify as much as i want (and in TW i need to purify a lot specially on cata squad) and demon plume shell need half chi than sage, so i can use pots for defense beside waste in chi.

    For me demon SoR> sage vanguard, SoR heal and give p.def bonus, vanguard is nice for p.def but only give the p.def bonus, i loved sage vanguard, but since i have demon SoR i seriously prefer demon SoR at sage vanguard.

    For PvP, well i personally think the gears, build and experience is more important, sage or demon won't make someone better in PvP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited June 2012

    It's 10%, but i agree, for myself it's not needed as pure magic my heals are already really strong.

    ●Ironheart Blessing
    Bless the target to restore 1200 HP plus 35%
    of your base magic attack over 15 seconds.

    Sage version restores an additional 10% HP.



    When I picked demon cleric over a year ago I posted asking if this was calculated as:

    [1200 + .35(m attack)]x 1.1 or if it was 1200hp + 45% of your base magic attack so 1200 x .45(m attack).

    I was told it was the second one. If thats the case then lets say we have 11k-13k magic attack with an average of 12k. A reasonable, average L100+ magics attack:
    sage= 1200hp + .45(12000) = 6600hp
    demon= 1200hp + .35(12000) = 5400hp

    That's a 22% increase from demon to sage. More base m attack increases it, less base magic attack lowers it, usually between 15-25%. If someone can confirm which formula pwi uses that'd be great. Either way, even 15-25% heals wasn't enough to make me think sage had more to offer than demon. Unless I'm healing a 40k barb my heals are plenty strong enough, and even on those barbs they don't take damage quick enough that my heals can't keep them full.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    i hvae a couple clerics im, tryin to decide sage or demon for. one supports a wizard, the other a barb, can i get some thoughts please? ive looked over the skills, demon LOOKS better, but tbh idk which to choose. can i get some input from the more exp'd clerics out there please?
  • Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    i hvae a couple clerics im, tryin to decide sage or demon for. one supports a wizard, the other a barb, can i get some thoughts please? ive looked over the skills, demon LOOKS better, but tbh idk which to choose. can i get some input from the more exp'd clerics out there please?

    ... read the previous 3 pages we already say what we think about it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Posts: 791 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    or just go play on PWV making both endgame demon & sage clerics and give them both a whirl- shouldnt take more than a few days! :D

    ...then forget to come back to pwi b:shy
    --Retired--

    Factions: Forbiden, Genesis, Conqueror, BloodLust, Zen, Spectral
    Active October 2008- August 2009; Semi-active- May 2010

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