God mode build for BM?

Really Perses. That is for rich people only. b:surrender

The normal Tom, **** and Harry can't afford that.

Even though at the moment I'm happy with my Regicides +6. b:laugh

_Perses_ - Lost City wrote: »

http://pwcalc.com/1a95616d738c0a33


5 APS Base, Demon, Unsparked, fully sharded, self-buffed.



I really don't think there is much that can withstand those fists (Jones is at 55, to make up for the +25 on fists).


I mean, 64 attack levels is what....a 30% increase to damage? (idk the exact forumla for this), then add in base damage and the fact this is 5 aps base...


lol....

Owned http://pwcalc.com/a8ea822af6e54f25

If its god mode and 5aps base why not make it sage?

laloner wrote: »

If its god mode and 5aps base why not make it sage?

Why would it be sage?

Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »

Why the LA ornies? It's not like you have 2x 99 HA

Troll not sensed? o.O

SSCaster - Lost City wrote:

Sage for BM = ****.


If you don't get that, you haven't played the game.

It's true, it's not like axe BMs don't get significant improved damage and become the anti-barb or anything with their axe skills. Not to mention, **** the chi save for those axe BMs, who uses chi skills these days anyway? What IS HF anyway?

If you haven't accepted that sage and demon are on even levels, merely played different, you haven't played the game.

SSCaster - Lost City wrote: »

PvP wise, and even PvP I will take demon BM over sage be 150% of the time.\

Better stuns, better buff, better crowd control.


All the sage has? Oh it can save itself some chi...great!

I need to check my math...75% 30 minutes isn't as good as 90% 1 hour? Granted, the demon has that brief bonus, but if you're out of range...

You can infinite stun if Aeolian Blade lands properly with all skills at a measly level 10...Even then, only a 2 second gap at level ten, can be filled with smack for an interrupt...No sage/demon required...

Axe AoE damage is better with sage due to 90% damage rather than the 75% and 1 crit rate...just 1 crit...I'd take 90% over that anway.

Save chi = more stuns = longer stunlock

Save chi = More HF = increase your damage more = faster deaths...Though I must hand demon HF away, that is sexy...

1 spark on GS means lower defenses by 50%, instantly HF, hello to that damage...

They're even jsut played differently...Mathematics, do you use it?

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage bell does not last 1 hour. Demon bonus is handy during TW since you're only building chi for roar/hf, and is far and away better after you or a squadmate is purged.

Also a fair point, although I was certain when a sage BM buffed me in FC it stayed on me for an hour...Though to defend my point I have been in squads dead set on tasks where not everyone could be close enough to me once we got in combat, so the demon would be good for maybe me and a seeker, but everyone else got more benefit from sage...

Nothing ever goes perfectly, demon stun "lock" is better than level 10 or sage. Not that anything can truly be stunlocked these days.

So if nothing can truly be stunlocked then why should the demon/sage stun argument matter at all? My genie escapes stuns at a 87% chance anyway...

Demon gets 4% crit if you learn all level 11 masteries. Sage gets a 15% weapon damage bonus, not a pure damage bonus.

If you learn all 4 it's still only 1, it's only when using whatever weapon...

Mo zun can strip your chi faster than you gain it. Not worth comparing.

Counter it with sage tiger maw orusing the sage opposite (can't remember the name) not to mention skills cost less chi anyway, so it cancles out for both sage and demon

Yes demon HF is better.

Indeed

Saving chi for stuns and HF eh? Only when it suits your argument I suppose.

b:victory

Do you?

Daily.

SSCaster - Lost City wrote: »

Saethos, I will give you this for buff, demon is better in PvP (and certain area's in PvE) and Sage can compare with that....but the only way it can compare is based on the gear of the person that is being buffed with it.


I've had only a 1k difference between my BM being buffed with it's own demon bell and being buffed with a sage bell.

Now others might see a higher difference based on their armor, refinements, and such. But usually the difference between the two is made up from the 15% boost demon has, which can be spammed, compared to sage which only the normal bell with a slightly higher amount to it.

It's 75% bonus for 15 seconds o.o

And a valid point, it's also situational and even depends on the player, which is why I say they're about even. I also went demon too.

SSCaster - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah but trust me, in PvP that 15 seconds may make the difference between taking a 10k crit and dieing and taking a 7k crit and living. (Had this happen enough times already with the damn sins in this game)


I also prefer the 15% boost because I can use it and then magic marrow and keep decent p.def and get some nice m.def

For yourself , demon buff is better. This is true. But whenever I was defending the sage buff I always mentioned squads. I'd rather my squad live and just me die then have my whole squad die because I wasn't close enough to buff them, which happens all the time since I'm usually squaded with casters and archers for the sake of cata-kill, in which case me not being able to get them happens a lot...

Demon marrows are better situationally. I'd rather use sage marrow magical on 1v1 casters, but I'd probably be screwed over on archers and some melee (sins and their condensed thorn) but in mass numbers, demon is better as well, so in TW it's better...

See what I mean when I say their about even?

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If your squad is so far spread out you can't keep the folks buffed who need it most (casters mainly) when they need it, then you're in the wrong squad or not doing your job.

Sage cleric with sage vanguard. Different culti means different role

By your reasoning there's no point to stunning at all. You're playing games to avoid the fact that demon stuns are better and demons have more of them. I haven't seen my roar miss in pvp, can you say the same? b:pleased

Sorry, did I say demon wasn't better? I thought I said it was equal...This implies that it varries on task. I guess we can't all use logic though, then things would start making sense.

Show me the data. Until then I'm trusting the character window and eye of observation.

Likewise.

It cancels out if you can sit there spamming tiger maw on a stationary target with no interruptions. Situational, unlikely, and there are demon skills that can do the same thing, including one ranged skill.

Leap after the first tiger maw, gain chi, sage roar (only costs 10 chi), Cloud erruption, chi is back.

No, I see exactly one situation where sage magic marrow would be preferred and even then it's questionable. Consider plume shot, soulburn/sov/sor, blade tempest... I'll take the almost-break-even balance from demon skills. Versus sins alone, spamming demon bell with pmarrow puts my phys resist to the maximum 90% reduction even with an elemental neck. Sage can't top that.

That's when HA comes in handy. Still looks good to me
(refines and shards left out, chestpiece modified to match mine, ring refined to match mine, ring engraved to match mine)

Keep believing demon and sage are even if you like. b:bye

Meh, whenever I hear to look up a certain BM TW video, that BM always turns out to be sage despite me being directed there due to being told he/she was amazing, well, I'll stick with the proof.

It's all about gameplay, not entirely about stats and gear. Unless you've had both then you can't say for sure one is better.

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Different culti means unable to fulfill role as well as other culti.

Provided you have the same exact text book role. Congrats, you reworded what I said but left out a key part! You must be an English major

You mean you're sorry you claimed sage is better than it is. I guess we can't all be objective about this so we'll make anecdotal claims to "prove" our point.

I claimed nothing was better than it was, I claimed sage was not fail depending on the roll and situation.

Situational, relying on luck, forgetting that leap costs more chi than you gain from the roar which might not even hit anything, genie skill that demons can use just as easily... you're not fooling anyone here. You don't even know how much chi your own skill costs.

Sage tiger maw. Grants 20 chi. Leap back. Costs 15 chi. I'm not sure but I believe 20-15=5, so if you still had a measly 5 chi after the taunt you can instantly roar, you just need to use the sage skill to gain 50 chi if you don't. Even if sage maw fails, 15 chi isn't that much, especially for a sage. And yes, demons can use them just as easily, but they can also get the taunt to lower chi, sage can just get it back easier.

Non-endgame refines are irrelevant to discussion. Come back with refined ornaments and def levels that don't leave you a 1shot target.[/qoute]

The point was to show the P.Def, you missed the main part.

As a bm you have 3 roles: stun, buff and amp. Demon does all of the above better than sage unless you plan to walk away from your squad after buffing. Of course to do these things you must survive, and once again, demon marrows and bell provide better protection than sage in all but 1 situation. Are you really that thick-headed or are you just a troll? This discussion has been had before.

I've said it before, i'm not walking away from my squad, the casters and archers are trying to survive while I'm also in combat. In which case once the 15 seconds pass, goodbye to the bonus and goodbye P.Def, that 15% starts to look situationally handy. Did I not show you a calc of magic marrowed P.Def with non-refined magic defense? My bad...

This discussion has indeed been had, and in every discussion is an argument. If there are arguments there must be facts to put behind these arguments unless one is to say there is only one route regardless of every realistic situation that does not admit the faults of the other.

Blood_Junky - Harshlands wrote: »

Tim and SSCaster are both failing to realize that demon/sage depends largely on the type of player you are.. For any class.

Yay, someone that's getting my message

I bet they are saying the same for sage archers Come to my sever and play with nova for a day >:D

T_i_m - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I explained what a bm's roles are. You added anything to that? No, you didn't. You explained how sage was equal to demon at those roles? You failed to do that as well.

*facehoof*

You claim sage bm's are better than they are. In a majority of pvp and pve situations, demons are superior. Superior != equivalent.

*facedesk*

Sage tiger maw effectively grants 5 chi. 5-15 = a loss of 10. And you still don't know how much chi sage roar costs. The fact that you don't know your own skills isn't helping your case any.

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php
Tiger Maw > Sage > 25% chance to gain 20 chi > 3 second cooldown > Spammable
Roar of the Pride > Sage > Cuts chi cost by 10 > Total Chi Cost = 25

measly low 20 chi after taunt> Sage Tiger Maw > Manages to land chi > Leap back > lose 15 chi > Total out at 25 chi > Able to use Sage Roar and total at 0 chi > Master Li's Technique > 50 Chi

Measly low 20 chi after taunt > Sage Tiger Maw > Fails to gain chi > 25 total chi > Leap back > Master Li's Technique > 50 chi > Chi for roar > Time to use one more Tiger Maw after roar before using other AoE

And of course this is with a lot of unnecessary running around, but the point is you can get even more chi in a manner without genies with sage. Personally, i'd rather just use my genie, but if that means no AD< I can manage with a taunt, since I can just use Master Li's Technique while I AD

Jesus, talk about spelling it out

You missed my point about pdef entirely.

You missed mine first.

"I have been in squads dead set on tasks where not everyone could be close enough to me once we got in combat,"

You, a support class, expect your squad to maintain a certain distance to you, as stated by you earlier in this thread. You're moving the goalposts to support your argument.

I've said it before, i'm not walking away from my squad, the casters and archers are trying to survive while I'm also in combat. In which case once the 15 seconds pass, goodbye to the bonus and goodbye P.Def, that 15% starts to look situationally handy.

A little thing people call Kiting, maybe you've heard of it?

The fact is there is only one situation where sage might conceivably work better than demon and that is 1v1 with a caster. "Might," because many casters have solid physical damage skills in addition to magic. Now, when choosing a cultivation does any average or better player choose cultivation based on one skill, or one situation? No, they look at the totality of events that could happen, look at all the skills and see which path provides better options in a majority of situations. This isn't an archer or a cleric where the path isn't nearly as clear. Demon BM's have better options in a clear majority of situations they will come across in-game.

Until you've played both sage and demon and actually learned they're played entirely different, don't diss the sage

The last and final argument I'll make is that a sage BM isn't put as support. If your faction has a sage BM as support, get new leaders. You're on catakill. Since you can gain chi easily, it's easy to use GS, DBB, and HF with genie skills in one go since GS has a chance to only use a single spark. If your sage BMs aren't on a defensive catakilling squad, kill everyone in your faction.

That's it, I'm done arguing with narrow minded dense skulled illogical narrow sighted people who don't fully understand the physics of the game.