The same question again... Sage or demon?

anbelll · April 2012

Excuse me, I know this question has been asked a lot of times already, but the topics are so full of people argument about different stuff that I haven't been able to get some clear and nice info on this...

First of all, I must say that I do have the money to make it an interval sin (with my own work, etc, so please no ragers or haters) but I don't plan on making it R9 anytime soon (maybe later, I will)

I already have that sin, and it is Sage now, but It wouldn't be that much of a problem to change it (its lvl 97 now, 1.82 aps, about to get the tome)

So, what do you reccomend?
I chose sage at first because I hadn't done all the math, and thought It could still be 5.0 (actually, I though nirvana set bonus for 2 pieces was -0.05, and not +5 atk lvl).

So, should I be a 4.0 sage sin (with nirvana g13 for now, and then g15 with 2x-0.05) or should I just switch and become a 3.33/5.0 demon sin?

As for now, I'm sage because I'm really helping my squads and faction with my sage buff, and I also enjoy the damage reduction against bosses (as I haven't really refined my stuff, till I'm 100), but 5.0 sounds a lot better than 4.0, and the longer stuns would help a lot as well.

So, in PvP and PvE, what should i do?

(Later in the game, I might become r9 with no interval, fully built for attack lvl using skills, for what it would be best to be sage in my opinion, but that is only a possibility)

If I turn into demon, will I regret it? If I stay sage, will I be strong enough and have similar damage?

Also, could you reccomend me a nice set? Both for sage and demon, the one with most interval for sage, the one with most attack damage/atk lvl for 3.33 demon.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2012

Well...

Demon gets more 25% DPS, whereas Sage gets 33% more HP. At endgame, both of these advantages will be null when the Demon shards JoSD and the Sage shard DoT.

Personally I went Sage for various reasons, the most relevant of which is that even as a Sage, you get more DPS than any other class. As a +6 3.33 Sage, I got DPS that is comparable to a 5 aps +10 BM. Also, for soloing purposes, your DPS is often irrelevant and your life is what matters. The 25% reduction of Sage Spark is identical to have 33% more HP, thus Sages can solo things earlier than Demons, but Demons get higher DPS earlier.

5.0 APS really isn't that great, especially if you're comparing it against 4.0. Both of them achieve permaspark, which is the primary goal, thus the 5.0 gets 25% more DPS.

Btw, I once saw a sin with a 5.0 G13 +10 Nirvana looking for BH Seat. I whispered him asking 'Why don't you go solo it?'. He responded that he's unable to solo Seat. I'm 3.33 G13 +6 Sage and I can solo Seat.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · April 2012

Go with what suits your playstyle.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · April 2012

olba makes me regretting going demonb:cryb:chuckle

anbelll wrote: »

I already have that sin, and it is Sage now, but It wouldn't be that much of a problem to change it (its lvl 97 now, 1.82 aps, about to get the tome)

I wouldnt say it's trivial; took quite a long time for my psy to finish his lvl100 culti (while he was in a very active faction). on the other hand, full deltas are way more common these days and seekers make sins actually wanted

anbelll · April 2012

As for the cultivations it is not really a problem as my faction is able to do them almost with no problem, and whenever I ask them (they really like me

), my main problem would be getting the books and spirit for them again, but it would be nothing compared to having a better char.

But, giving what you say, I will probably stay sage, and build all my equipment now. Sage has the benefit of being able to choose between aps or pure dph, an dr9 pure atk lvl would have an amazing earthern rift, just like that 2.5kk hit i saw on one of your earlier posts.

So, as it will give me another option later, and will also benefit the faction (with my buff, the 5.0+12 sins are amazing, and it helps them a lot against bosses and pve).

Ao, thank you, I will just stay sage, also because demons are everywhere, and sages are harder to find here

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear · April 2012

@Olbaze , how could this assassin not being able to solo Seat since he had Higher Refines and APS than you. is it due to sage spark and other factors or just a lack of player-skill (which would be most obvious).

Just plain Curiosity , you certainly have troubled me a lot of times when it comes to choose my future cultivation for assassin. b:pleased

@anbelll Since you Lean toward sage , then it may suit you more. usually our first choice is the best that corresponds to our style and ideas

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2012

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@Olbaze , how could this assassin not being able to solo Seat since he had Higher Refines and APS than you. is it due to sage spark and other factors or just a lack of player-skill (which would be most obvious).

My guess? He had a G13 +10 but the rest of his refines at +3-5. That's a pretty common thing, at least on Sanctuary.

But for comparison, my current HP without buffs is 6,397. Sage Spark would effectively make that into 8,529. To get that kind of life without Sage spark, you'd have to increase my refines from +6 to +9. That's how great the difference really is.

For example, with this kind of setup, a Sage sin would have 3,028 more HP than a Demon. In terms of shards, that's equal to a full set of Primevals/Savants.

With that said, it's really easy to see why a Sage sin would go for DoTs rather than Primevals: because they already get the kind of HP a Demon sin would have with full Primevals, so closing the DPS gap with DoTs makes perfect sense.

Of course, there are at least two scenarios where this isn't applicable: a) when using Windshield b) when there's a cleric using BB. The former is by choice and the latter is often a guarantee that you won't die anyway, so neither of these scenarios would really play a factor to choosing one's culti. However, they certainly do play a notable factor when you consider the soloing ability of both cultivation choices.

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · April 2012

With that said, it's really easy to see why a Sage sin would go for DoTs rather than Primevals: because they already get the kind of HP a Demon sin would have with full Primevals, so closing the DPS gap with DoTs makes perfect sense.

im asking this becase my sin cannot perma spark yet, but would not that setup make you squishier then demon at end game when not sparked? b:surrender might sound a bit noob, but i cant decide yet on my sin end game shards

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2012

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

im asking this becase my sin cannot perma spark yet, but would not that setup make you squishier then demon at end game when not sparked? b:surrender might sound a bit noob, but i cant decide yet on my sin end game shards

Well yes, it would make you squishier than than Demon at endgame when not sparked. However, in PvE, you're pretty much always sparked. Obviously, you would only go for DoT shards after you've secured permasparking. Before that, you can get by with immaculates or so.

It's rather obvious that most people wouldn't really start to shard with endgame gems until their refines are at least +7.

Really, considering a situation where you're not sparked isn't very relevant at endgame PvE. And again, when the Sage is sparked, their HP is roughly equal to a Demon who is fully sharded with Primevals. And that's still unbuffed, obviously the effectiveness of Sage spark goes up when you're fully buffed.

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · April 2012

b:thanks thank you for the info, really apreciated

got lot fo time to work on this b:thanks

Empu - Sanctuary · April 2012

Generally speaking, sage has the better survivability potential and demon has the better damage potential. As Olbaze already pointed out, in the more traditional builds, you would be looking at same survivability and same damage (roughly for both) with as difference that sage has it's damage from harder hits and demon from faster hits.

To that you can add the skills : sage has the better buffs (bp/tidal/forcussed/deaden nerves) while demon has the better stuns.

Personally, I'm sage because I consider it more versatile. I don't give aps that much importance, as it only serves on very long lasting bosses (that are really rare to start with these days) and by that your sin becomes pretty much only usefull for spark>poke single targets. Ofc, this is related to how I like to play my sin and what I do. I'm very happy how I build my sin, but that doesn't mean everyone would like it.

anbelll wrote: »

I chose sage at first because I hadn't done all the math, and thought It could still be 5.0 (actually, I though nirvana set bonus for 2 pieces was -0.05, and not +5 atk lvl).

So, should I be a 4.0 sage sin (with nirvana g13 for now, and then g15 with 2x-0.05) or should I just switch and become a 3.33/5.0 demon sin?

Anyone factoring in aps that much for a culti, I advice to just go demon. Aps is never the reason to choose sage. I have known 2 players that turned sage when they became 4 aps base, both of them turned back demon once they rolled their G15. I'm not saying sage with all -int gear and G13 nirvana daggers is a bad build, but it's not a reason to go sage.

Also, 5 aps base is possible with r8 recast. It's just highly unrealistic.

anbelll wrote: »

If I turn into demon, will I regret it? If I stay sage, will I be strong enough and have similar damage?

This might be contradictory to previous remarks, but don't change culti. You're not 100 yet, so I doubt you have super epic gear that can't be stashed. Changing culti is only worth it if you have r8 recast or r9 imo. In other cases, just buy an accountstash and make a new sin. It's cheaper and you will be able to get a 2nd lvl100 toon to collect keys/additional bh that uses most (if not all) the gear from your main.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

I went demon because I preferred the skills. They are better for how sins are played. We're a squishy, high dd class that survives by avoiding damage and using control skills and gains benefits like first strikes and shadow escape if we're "caught". The increased stuns, shorter cooldowns, more effective Ribstrike, more crits, better weapon mastery and the pure beastliness of our dps with higher aps and higher dph of wolf emblem makes demons popular.

I do like some skills of sage; Paint. And Powerdash, Knife throw, Tackling slash, and Chill of the Deep. I hate sage Wolf Emblem. And I know people rant about how much better the focussed/tidal is for sage but I don't get how its really that much better than the double benefits of demon. The only example I can think of for Tidal(outside of PvP) is on bosses that sleep. My evasion is already so high if I'm slept they can miss me 2-4 times before the hit me and knock me out of sleep, and then my spark is dead. So I can see the increased rate of demon evasion being a hindrance there, but in most cases I consider them situationally equal.

I ran into the situation tonight our forum sage sins had a fit about a few months ago. Doing the Wraithslayers Missive and had 5 sins in squad. The one with H&Ts speaks up "I got sage paint!" I didn't say it because I know it sends sage sins into convulsions but "who cares?" Sage paint is great when you struggle tanking with only demon paint, but for almost everything I do 2% is plenty. On normal bosses 2k-4k paint heals at 4 aps isn't uncommon. The bosses usually have an attack rate of .6, so if I only average 1.5k per heal thats 10k heal inbetween each of their attack and I only have 7k hp.

The reason I brought that up is we've done the math and the increased damage output of demon almost completely covers the 50% difference in paint heals. It doesn't, but it gets close. Between the higher crit rate and better Dagger Mastery, the better Wolf Emblem, and the 25% aps increase, plus the versatility of "real" endgame weapons our paint heals are similar.

And no, Sage + full DoT vs Demon + full JoSD are not "about the same damage and survivability". Demon would have substantually better dps and better survivability. Granted, the shards are also 1.9b more for that build. If you are worried about demons having survivability issues look around at all the full DoT demon sins that solo 3-2/3-3. If they were really having trouble they would be sharding defensively, but the (sad?) dynamic of sins is greater dps=greater survivability and demon favors this dynamic at endgame.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · April 2012

I went demon because it fit my playstyle, and adapting to it was simple enough. Knowing your limitations is a huge key in playing your class to its optimum potential. I knew there were some things I could not solo at a current point in my build, so I farmed/bought better gear/refine to solo more efficiently.

I'm one of the few Demon sins who has every demon skill available, and I don't regret going demon one bit. And I'm 100% positive that I would be exactly the same if I went sage. Sage has some really great skills, while Demons do too. In terms of skills, Sages have an easier chi gain than Demons. As others say, Demons have better stuns, while Sages have better defensive skills (high enough duration to have DN on 2.5 minutes out of 3, SE that purifies, high % FM and TP).

Then there are other skills that are significant, such as SS, Rift, BP, and PD. Personally I think that Demon Knife Throw is better than the sage version, because of its 100% interrupt. From personal experience, the 70% chance to interrupt never really interrupted when I had it at level 10. It worked about 2-3 times every 10 tries.

And it can be arguable on which culti's Wolf Emblem is better. Sage can have it on for as long as they want for a constant 220% rage damage, but demons get 240% rage damage half the time, and 200% the other half. Personally I prefer the demon one better because I tend to spam it as often as I can, and the spike damage is very nice in the first 30 seconds of a boss battle. If i'm in a squad, that's enough time to pull off a mire, frenzy, EP or Subsea, HF, Veno amp, devour, etc.

So as I said in my first post, go with which suits your playing style.

Empu - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I know people rant about how much better the focussed/tidal is for sage but I don't get how its really that much better than the double benefits of demon. The only example I can think of for Tidal(outside of PvP) is on bosses that sleep. My evasion is already so high if I'm slept they can miss me 2-4 times before the hit me and knock me out of sleep, and then my spark is dead. So I can see the increased rate of demon evasion being a hindrance there, but in most cases I consider them situationally equal.

How I see it, you use tidal protection when the opponent has negative status effects you want to avoid and in all other circumstances you use focussed mind. I can't think of any situation where a little of both would be preferable to a better version of one. Most bosses you use focussed mind on won't even have a debuff other then a slow or something insignificant. Most bosses that make you use tidal protection have a nasty debuff you want to avoid, so better increase your chances to the max.

Btw, the sleep example isn't a good one imo. I always want to avoid a sleep and if I get slept anyway, I'd rather be hit by the boss asap...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

On normal bosses 2k-4k paint heals at 4 aps isn't uncommon. The bosses usually have an attack rate of .6, so if I only average 1.5k per heal thats 10k heal inbetween each of their attack and I only have 7k hp.

And to think you always were the biggest advocate of "more dps = more survivability". You were even one of the most critical when I (and some others) brought that point up ages ago b:laugh

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

And it can be arguable on which culti's Wolf Emblem is better. Sage can have it on for as long as they want for a constant 220% rage damage, but demons get 240% rage damage half the time, and 200% the other half. Personally I prefer the demon one better because I tend to spam it as often as I can, and the spike damage is very nice in the first 30 seconds of a boss battle. If i'm in a squad, that's enough time to pull off a mire, frenzy, EP or Subsea, HF, Veno amp, devour, etc.

There are many skills that aren't "better" in one version, but that are just different. Way to many ppl want to always qualify something as better then the other and fall in dumb attempts off trying to make them comparable. I think the best examples are dragon strike and masteries.

Dragon strike is a typical skill that I would consider sage version better for a sage sin (only spark once every 15 sec, so the 30 sec cd has no use to be shortened) and demon version better for a demon sin (more an imergency skill, so the shorter cd does help).

On masteries, how can hitting a little harder each hit or having a slightly higher chance to crit be realistically compared ? They are essentially different, putting them in a timeframe is nothing more then an attempt to stay in a comforting black-white vision.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · April 2012

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are many skills that aren't "better" in one version, but that are just different. Way to many ppl want to always qualify something as better then the other and fall in dumb attempts off trying to make them comparable. I think the best examples are dragon strike and masteries.

Dragon strike is a typical skill that I would consider sage version better for a sage sin (only spark once every 15 sec, so the 30 sec cd has no use to be shortened) and demon version better for a demon sin (more an imergency skill, so the shorter cd does help).

On masteries, how can hitting a little harder each hit or having a slightly higher chance to crit be realistically compared ? They are essentially different, putting them in a timeframe is nothing more then an attempt to stay in a comforting black-white vision.

That's true, but there has to be some way to compare the same skill of different cultivations, just so they can have something to say between the two skills. What you said is correct. Certain skills are good just for that cultivation.

I think that the main reason Dagger Devotion is compared is because the crit rate can be calculated in with the formula for average DPS, so an estimated comparison can be made. But in reality that's not going to really matter.

Though that does bring me to wonder which hits harder:

1.) A full DoT sharded R9+12 demon sin (G16 cube neck/Sky Cover) with demon chill/devotion/emblem zerk critting with demon Earthen Rift (not that demon rift matters in this comparison).
2.) A full DoT sharded R9+12 sage sin (G16 cube neck/Sky Cover) with sage chill/devotion/emblem zerk critting with sage Earthen Rift.

I know that Sage has a higher base dagger damage, 5 more attack levels, and a higher damaging Rift, but in terms of a zerk crit, Demon has the extra 20% damage on top of Sage's emblem.

Olbaze, it would be nice to know what these setups hit!

Empu - Sanctuary · April 2012

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's true, but there has to be some way to compare the same skill of different cultivations, just so they can have something to say between the two skills.

Comparing is just matter of presenting pertinent information. Transforming the information, that is different in their essence, into a sort of universal indicator will do nothing but erase the substantial difference of your information. In other words, the "math" will end up clouding your judgement instead of enlightening it. Not to mention that the dps indicator is highly questionnable (do you know any science/profession where they base opinions on average before dispersion?).

The essence between both masteries, but the same is true for wolf emblem, resides in the probability of occurence and the potential (sage = alway a little vs demon = sometimes a lot). You already know enough to make a choice. Wanting to go further (with or without calculations) is not comparing, but convincing others or yourself that that either is better then the other (usually to justify a choice).

I don't like black and white reasonning, it prevents the mind from seeing all the beautifull collors that exist between them.

anbelll · April 2012

Ok, What I will probably do now is keep on playing like this, I will not change cultivation.

From what you are saying, it seems that sage sins are more PvE oriented, while demon sins are better in PvP (not that it matters that much, usually it's just about knowing how to play your char).
Probably a demon sin will be better at dealing damage in a squad in any instance, but sage sins seem to do better at soloing stuff, and that is what I want right now.

Still, a demon sin is really attractive for me, so I will probably start a new one in a different account and play both, but for now, I will just stay with mine, that I love already =D

But I just wanted to ask, Sakubatou, you said that demon sins have "more crits and better weapon mastery"...
Well, if you put crits and weapond mastery in different categories, then sage mastery would be a lot better while the demon having more crits, OR if you consider the +2% crit to be part of the mastery, then there would be no extra difference between crits... Or did you mean something else?

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · April 2012

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Comparing is just matter of presenting pertinent information. Transforming the information, that is different in their essence, into a sort of universal indicator will do nothing but erase the substantial difference of your information. In other words, the "math" will end up clouding your judgement instead of enlightening it. Not to mention that the dps indicator is highly questionnable (do you know any science/profession where they base opinions on average before dispersion?).

The essence between both masteries, but the same is true for wolf emblem, resides in the probability of occurence and the potential (sage = alway a little vs demon = sometimes a lot). You already know enough to make a choice. Wanting to go further (with or without calculations) is not comparing, but convincing others or yourself that that either is better then the other (usually to justify a choice).

I don't like black and white reasonning, it prevents the mind from seeing all the beautifull collors that exist between them.

Beautifully said, Empu.

It really didn't take that much for me to decide which cultivation suited my play style. When I was choosing, I was in no interest of doing PvP, so in the long run, when I did start PvP, I felt a lot more comfortable with my decision. It's all just a matter of self-analyzing and comparing the pros and cons of each cultivation, and how you'll adapt to it based on your play style (skills included).

PvP or PvE, both cultivations will rock. You just got to play it right.

CritCat - Archosaur · April 2012

anbelll wrote: »

Excuse me, I know this question has been asked a lot of times already, but the topics are so full of people argument about different stuff that I haven't been able to get some clear and nice info on this...

And here we have the typical sin that can't use the search function or is willing to read other topics that already cover this, even with a sage/demon sin or not.
I'd recommend doing your own research, most of the assassin players here have answered the same questions over and over and over, even with topics with the same name, asking for their opinions, (Which are unlikely to change dramatically) is just idiotic.

tl;dr lrn2read those arguments.b:kiss

anbelll · April 2012

CritCat, as I said, I did my research, but none of the posts included having already done the cultivation.
And, I aslo prefer some personalized answers, so I dediced to make this thread.

If you don't like it, don't read it. Do you think you're being patriotic or saving the world just by insulting someone in a forum? Learn to live.

CritCat - Archosaur · April 2012

anbelll wrote: »

Attempted response filled with hur durr I dun like u get a life

The other threads have personalized answers too. I read it, because I chose to. Did you not read the other threads?

I'm not patriotic or saving the world, I'm just showing how you neglect to read the other threads that will definitely show the other information.

But being on topic and actually helpful:
Either one has their own advantages, actually read other people's posts, because by now the others have already put down the necessary information for you to make a decision.

Don't you have a sin you should be working on?b:kiss

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear · April 2012

CritCat - Archosaur wrote: »

The other threads have personalized answers too. I read it, because I chose to. Did you not read the other threads?

I'm not patriotic or saving the world, I'm just showing how you neglect to read the other threads that will definitely show the other information.

But being on topic and actually helpful:
Either one has their own advantages, actually read other people's posts, because by now the others have already put down the necessary information for you to make a decision.

Don't you have a sin you should be working on?b:kiss

Here Ya Go

The same question again... Sage or demon?

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