Too much DPS / DPH?

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So if 6 people were hitting maybe 500-1ks sparked on a boss that has over 4.5mil hp... thats a lot longer then 1 sutra / AD duration.
(figure 30ks from the group a second. That's still longer than 2minutes.Close to 3 minutes?)

Bramble would kill most of them before they even did a good dent into his hp.

Purely an example.

Also the bramble is not a constant buff, it ends rather quick, if bosses had longer duration like 1st trial mobs, forgot which element, then it would be more difficult.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So if 6 people were hitting maybe 500-1ks sparked on a boss that has over 4.5mil hp... thats a lot longer then 1 sutra / AD duration.
(figure 30ks from the group a second. That's still longer than 2minutes.Close to 3 minutes?)

Bramble would kill most of them before they even did a good dent into his hp.

Purely an example.

If I go from hitting a mob for 80ks down to 500-1k I will quit this game. You're damage reduction for the drop rates in TT is ridiculous. This wont hurt me either, I use it for coin, but guess who will suffer? Yep, the normal player that can't afford the gear I've established. You can't make it impossible for the best geared players, or everyone else (which is the majority) will also quit.

Then change it to where Attack / Defense levels is strictly a PvP stat. Like Slayer/Warding is Purely PvE. That would get rid of the huge advantage it has in PvE. While still nerfing it down to where they do about the same damage in PvE as "regular players". You would still have an advantage in PvP (where it matters). But not so much better in the PvE department. (making it slightly harder for everyone.

Not only what Traz said, but that would make Rank EIGHT (8) recast better than r9.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People will always complain no matter what changes come out if it doesn't benefit them. But at the same time if none are made to attempt to balance it at all we might as well say this is the last year PWI will be able to pull out of its life support state torwards death. I would be perfectly fine with losing that bonus on my sin. It makes it a little harder for me to do some of the instances. People complain they are bored all the time. Making this game harder will bring challenges. The people who would quit would quit for the wrong reasons. But /shrug.
That's my 2 cents.

Easiest example. I bet a ton would QQ if the Lucid NPCs disappeared and people would demand they were given back... yet if they were never introduced no one would care because they wouldn't know about the chance for a SoT. ijs.

I'll say it again, china is NOT going to unbalance their game to balance ours. They have their version under control. Our marketing team has ruined ours. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

We have things in our game they don't have in theirs and vice versa. They could easily recode something just for our game. (Example Hypers in FF isn't IN their game.)

That's not a complete game mechanic change. Their version still has hypers it's just turned off there. China is not putting 1000s of hours to balance a sister version of their own game. Our marketing team has turned this game into a joke, and China knows if they rebalance it they will just end up doing it again. China cares about the fat check they get every month/quarter/half year/year and that's it. That's just the flat out truth.

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'll say it again, china is NOT going to unbalance their game to balance ours. They have their version under control. Our marketing team has ruined ours. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I agree they will not give us a change that will negatively effect the CN version.

I will admit they have done a few - VERY few things differently on ours then theirs - but each of those things, (hypers in FC, ease of r9 etc....) are done to generate money.

No nerf is going to generate more money. Morai gear is made to be a good cheap source of end game farming gear (by all accounts the g12 lvl 95 stuff is more effective than tt99 at PvE) and it is easy to get what 10-15 quests to get all the peices if that many. Now the higher end morai gear is alot harder to get, but still it's designed to give you better PvE which is what the carebears asked for and what the carebears got.

I didn't read the entire thread but I get this stupid argument again about buffing bosses and/or nerfing APS...

Changing bosses purely to make APS less effective is stupid. People with good gear and high refines should expect bosses to die fast and for them to be able to survive bosses.

The bosses should only be changed to make other classes with high refines and good gear to be able to enjoy them, so it's not only APS classes face rolling them. Giving bosses more hp so a squad of high end characters can't kill it within one sutra duration just makes the instance more impossible for everyone else.

Making bosses more difficult without increasing the rewards is also a big mistake.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Rank 8 recast has better base stats than Rank 9. In terms of PvP, if all attack/defense levels turned into slaying/warding, then there wouldn't be any attack/defense levels in PvP. With R8r having better base stats than rank9, then that'll make rank 8 recast better than rank 9, which makes no sense, seeing how each progressive rank gear is better than the previous.

That would be epic. We can start calling rank 9, rCS (rank cash shop anyone?) because it would have absolutely no logical order in rank. b:shutup

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You didn't read my post corectly. I didn't say turn all attack/def levels into PvE stats. I said turn them into PvP only stats. and used slayer/warding as the example for the PvE stats.

That would lower the damage output in PvE that r9 gets for example. but w/e I feel I am going to give hopeless opinions that will be countered without a self opinion about an alternative fix.

30 less atk levels for a sin (using APS gear) is about 23% less damage? Any other toons in squads using G15 (bms other sins) wont even be effected in PvE. So I don't really consider that an effective nerf. That probably wont even make a small splash in the grand scheme of things, but it would be a PR nightmare for PWE. The other factor you need to keep in mind is the time obsessed culture we have. If we make things take longer the culture will be even more obsessed and would take r9 DD and r8 DD even less then they are now. Venos would be shoved out along with vit barbs and all that other jazz.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ah, I didn't misread, but I typed the exact opposite of what I was going to. XD

Nonetheless, there's just no easy solution. You can't please everyone sadly. And at this point I don't really think PWE really cares about its player base anymore.

Never mind, I just moved it to a new post everyone missed it. lol

KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I forget, I'm one of the few who still take non APS classes to things I run/do. b:surrender
Most players would lose 30 just from Jones Blessing(+more from set bonuses/r9/etc) Making their gear only better then another players purely by grade level in PvE which isn't that drastic of a difference.



I know this isn't exactly their Flagship game anymore, but still changes have to be made. Let people QQ over it, and if we lose a few players to benefit the majority and get in more players to replace them and more... I guess perhaps my opinion is "biased" I'm sure because I didn't roll a fish as a main. But o well we will see how PWE survives the impact of the new releases coming out in the near future.

I'll throw you a bone. How about the more classes you take along with you the bigger a damage bonus you get / higher drop rates are? If you have a full rainbow squad you can achieve times that you get right now with a full APS squad, AND you get slightly better drops then now. This takes away the factor of solo'ing, duo'ing, trio'ing, class ignoring, and doesn't slow anyone down. You could also nerf individual damage some, but it gets made up by the squad bonus so it's not really a "nerf" per say.

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

30 less atk levels for a sin (using APS gear) is about 23% less damage? Any other toons in squads using G15 (bms other sins) wont even be effected in PvE. So I don't really consider that an effective nerf. That probably wont even make a small splash in the grand scheme of things, but it would be a PR nightmare for PWE. The other factor you need to keep in mind is the time obsessed culture we have. If we make things take longer the culture will be even more obsessed and would take r9 DD and r8 DD even less then they are now. Venos would be shoved out along with vit barbs and all that other jazz.

I'll throw you a bone. How about the more classes you take along with you the bigger a damage bonus you get / higher drop rates are? If you have a full rainbow squad you can achieve times that you get right now with a full APS squad, AND you get slightly better drops then now. This takes away the factor of solo'ing, duo'ing, trio'ing, class ignoring, and doesn't slow anyone down. You could also nerf individual damage some, but it gets made up by the squad bonus so it's not really a "nerf" per say.

You shouldn't be forced to take a rainbow squad. You shouldn't get massive damage increase just because you took a rainbow squad. Damage should come from gear and buffs because that's what you invested in your characters for. Other classes shouldn't get arbitrary damage bonuses just to balance APS. If that's the case, why not pop in 5 alts with no gear and face roll along anyway?

The bosses should simply be fun if you take any class.

Why is APS used so much?

1. Because most bosses are single target and stationary. You don't see archers or even BMs APS in PvP because people don't stand still and let you APS them.

2. Because most bosses are immune to disables. Some are even immune to amps. If a lot of skills don't even affect bosses, what else are you going to do?

3. Because bosses are so aggravating to fight when fights last too long.


The solution is simply to add more variety to bosses that allow every class to be able to contribute to boss fights. For example, some bosses should split into many entities, with each part having a faction of the total hp. Now AOEs from wizards and seekers make a difference while APS characters can kill them fast just the same.

Each boss should pace around or even teleport but be vulnerable to disables. Then your APS characters have to work together and time their stuns and freezes to take this boss down, or your party can have some ranged characters.

All bosses need a reduction of maximum hp as well as annoying attributes such as bramble, 5.0, periodic aoe seal etc. The idea is to make the bosses encourage teamwork, not make it a mad rush to kill it before it gives you a headache.

I do think a complete overhaul of bosses is probably expecting too much, maybe it can be part of the next big content update.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced to take a rainbow squad. You shouldn't get massive damage increase just because you took a rainbow squad. Damage should come from gear and buffs because that's what you invested in your characters for. If that's the case, why not pop in 5 alts with no gear and faceroll along anyway?

The bosses should simply be fun if you take any class.

Why is APS used so much?

1. Because most bosses are single target and stationary. You don't see archers or even BMs APS in PvP because people don't stand still and let you APS them.

2. Because most bosses are immune to disables. Some are even immune to amps. If a lot of skills don't even affect bosses, what else are you going to do?

3. Because bosses are so aggravating to fight when fights last too long.


The solution is simply to add more variety to bosses that allow every class to be able to contribute to boss fights. For example, some bosses should split into many entities, with each part having a faction of the total hp. Now AOEs from wizards and seekers make a difference while APS characters can kill them fast just the same.

Each boss should pace around or even teleport but be vulnerable to disables. Then your APS characters have to work together and time their stuns and freezes to take this boss down, or your party can have some ranged characters.

All bosses need a reduction of maximum hp as well as annoying attributes such as bramble, 5.0, periodic aoe seal etc. The idea is to make the bosses encourage teamwork not make it a mad rush to kill it before it gives you a headache.

I never said you HAD to take a rainbow squad. I just said if you did you'd get bonuses.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Again, what's to stop people from just multi clienting a rainbow alt squad? The bonus of having other classes should come from the skills available to them, not some arbitrary bonus added just so you can compete with APS.

That means again, bosses should not be stationary single targets if you want other classes to be worth something in instances.

A PQ-like system (they can use that basic code already) for each instance that shows them doing damage to the bosses. If someone is dedicated enough to run that many clients through and have them all on macros (through the seals and stuns and what not) then more power to them, but it's not going to be anywhere near as efficient as getting others to do it. You can't stop everyone, but you can stop the majority.

I came up with this system about a year ago in another major thread talking about APS and solo'ing.