Even Seeker is better with APS?
Instanced - Lothranis
Posts: 16 Arc User
Figured I'd repost here to expose my maths to more people (and thus hopefully prove me wrong).
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Avg weapon damage with R9 build like this is 12 837.5. So with level 11 vortex over 15 seconds...
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Now with this APS build (unsparked):
Even between these two APS is the clear winner.
________________________________
But when we spark the APS build...
As you can see, even with an usparked APS build, its DoT is superior. However we mustn't forget that over longer time periods, the APS build will have to respark (and possible build up chi, I'm not sure if 42.9 attacks during the spark period will get him 3 sparks again), all of which takes time, but this probably won't make his damage lower than vortex's.
NB: R9 recast adds only about 100000 to the damage of vortex R9 regular
If anybody can see a flaw in maths with APS, please tell me, because I'm horrified by what I found.
b:cryb:shocked
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »i have done some calc a year ago that resulted to vortex>aps>skill spamming; cannot remember what gear i used but i should probably try again with full r9 for vortex/skill
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Avg weapon damage with R9 build like this is 12 837.5. So with level 11 vortex over 15 seconds...
(15/1.5)*(12 837.5+8300)*(2.28 - Att level)*(1.27*2 - crit rate)=1224114.9Total damage = 1224114.9
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Now with this APS build (unsparked):
(15*2.22*13086)*(1.59)*(1.2*2)=1662874.611Total damage = 1662874.611
Even between these two APS is the clear winner.
________________________________
But when we spark the APS build...
(15*2.86*27668.5)*(1.59)*(1.2*2)=4529510.528Total damage = 4529510.528
As you can see, even with an usparked APS build, its DoT is superior. However we mustn't forget that over longer time periods, the APS build will have to respark (and possible build up chi, I'm not sure if 42.9 attacks during the spark period will get him 3 sparks again), all of which takes time, but this probably won't make his damage lower than vortex's.
NB: R9 recast adds only about 100000 to the damage of vortex R9 regular
If anybody can see a flaw in maths with APS, please tell me, because I'm horrified by what I found.
b:cryb:shocked
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ☆Emerald Soulsphere. Because that's how I roll.
Post edited by Instanced - Lothranis on
0
Comments
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Can APS or - channeling bonus change channeling time of Vortex ?Yataghan Vortex Level 1
Range Melee
Mana 289.1
Channel 1.4 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Blade or Sword
Requisite Cultivation Transcendent
Drains 289.1 Mana every 1.5 seconds. Deals constant Physical damage
to targets within a 8.4 meter radius. The damage is equal
to base damage plus 55% of weapon damage plus 4491.2.
Spell will channel until you either run out of Chi(Edited: Mana points) or cancel
the spell.
Costs 2 Sparks
As I know it "Deals constant Physical damage" after every 1.5 seconds.
Same is for Dragon's Breath for Wizards 3 seconds' interval between hits can't be reduced.0 -
Personally going APS on a toon that is designed primarily with magic attacks is pretty stupid.
The Seeker is a BattleMage, not a BladeMaster.
The Seekers high points are the massive amounts of damage that are added by the skills and the debuffs that the Seeker is able to provide. Going APS negates that and you just become another vanilla **** and slash APS toon. Might as well make an APS wizard.
Also no, -chan will not change the damage rate of Vortex, just the time it takes to channel the skill.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Instanced - Lothranis wrote: »Figured I'd repost here to expose my maths to more people (and thus hopefully prove me wrong).
________________________________
Avg weapon damage with R9 build like this is 12 837.5. So with level 11 vortex over 15 seconds...(15/1.5)*(12 837.5+8300)*(2.28 - Att level)*(1.27*2 - crit rate)=1224114.9
Total damage = 1224114.9
________________________________
Now with this APS build (unsparked):(15*2.22*13086)*(1.59)*(1.2*2)=1662874.611
Total damage = 1662874.611
Even between these two APS is the clear winner.
________________________________
But when we spark the APS build...(15*2.86*27668.5)*(1.59)*(1.2*2)=4529510.528
Total damage = 4529510.528
As you can see, even with an usparked APS build, its DoT is superior. However we mustn't forget that over longer time periods, the APS build will have to respark (and possible build up chi, I'm not sure if 42.9 attacks during the spark period will get him 3 sparks again), all of which takes time, but this probably won't make his damage lower than vortex's.
NB: R9 recast adds only about 100000 to the damage of vortex R9 regular
If anybody can see a flaw in maths with APS, please tell me, because I'm horrified by what I found.
b:cryb:shocked
That's assuming single target for both. Get in a target rich environment and vortex wins out.Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »Can APS or - channeling bonus change channeling time of Vortex ?
APS only affects normal attacks, not skills, so no, and -chan would only affect time to set up vortex, not the damage over time.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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How much is 128% of 12,8k ?0
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SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »The Seeker is a BattleMage, not a BladeMaster.
The Seekers high points are the massive amounts of damage that are added by the skills and the debuffs that the Seeker is able to provide. Going APS negates that and you just become another vanilla **** and slash APS toon.
I understand that (not to mention that an APS build Seeker could never match AoE DoT of the vortex), but in terms taking on a single opponent, could a Seeker's debuffs really increase her damage by a factor of 3.7 to compete with the APS build guy?Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »That's assuming single target for both. Get in a target rich environment and vortex wins out.
If not, would it not then be sensible to forgo R9, make your Seeker APS, and then just use vortex for AoE when necessary (obviously the damage will not be as high as the R9's, but might it be worth it for bosses?)?
How does that make them useless?
As I thought, so above formulas are useless for Seekers.Also no, -chan will not change the damage rate of Vortex, just the time it takes to channel the skill.
You mean for the Attack Level bonus on the R9 kit? You have to calculate it as 228% of 12.8k, as Attack Level adds that % to your attack (I believe). So in essence it is 12800+(12800*1.28), which is the same as 12800*2.28. The added damage (your question of 128% of 12.8k) is 16384.Deant - Raging Tide wrote: »How much is 128% of 12,8k ?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ☆Emerald Soulsphere. Because that's how I roll.0 -
Instanced - Lothranis wrote: »
...
How does that make them useless?
...
I removed my post.
When I wrote it I thought, that you compare same skill for both(APS/non-APS) build.
Votex is APS independent.0 -
Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »I removed my post.
When I wrote it I thought, that you compare same skill for both(APS/non-APS) build.
Votex is APS independent.
Fair enough. b:pleasedb:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ☆Emerald Soulsphere. Because that's how I roll.0 -
You didn't factor the damage amp of heart shatter into vortex (won't affect auto attack damage, so it does make a difference.)
If I'm reading Ecatomb's skill descriptions right (and they're accurate, not a given for PWI skill descriptions), sage heart shatter gives a 150% amp to physical and metal skills, demon a 135% amp with a 15% increase to crit rate for physical and metal skills.
And no, 2.22 APS isn't enough to maintain triple permaspark.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
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thnx for the numbers
it's true that for the skills/vortex you should factor in the related debuff. for vortex it's not possible to maintain the -20 def lvls debuff (unless there's one more seeker or boss dies very fast). for aps it should be considered permanent imho.
now with 2.22-2.86 aps you will get 171 chi per spark. lets assume that you start with 4 sparks and have CE ready:
4*
spark -> 1*
3 sec wait
12 sec sparked -> 2.71
CE -> 3.71
spark -> 0.71
3 sec wait
12 sec sparked -> 2.42
6 sec unsparked -> 3
spark -> 0
3 sec wait
12 sec -> 1.71
12 sec unsparked -> 3 sparks, you should be able to use CE -> 4 sparks
so, it's a round of 63 sec; 9 innactive, 36 sparked and 18 unsparked
18 unsparked: 199k
36 sparked: 1087k
total: 1268k in 63secSylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »Personally going APS on a toon that is designed primarily with magic attacks is pretty stupid.
The Seeker is a BattleMage, not a BladeMaster.
The Seekers high points are the massive amounts of damage that are added by the skills and the debuffs that the Seeker is able to provide. Going APS negates that and you just become another vanilla **** and slash APS toon. Might as well make an APS wizard.
Also no, -chan will not change the damage rate of Vortex, just the time it takes to channel the skill.
first, seeker has a ton of physical attacks
second, a lot of debuffs SCREAM go aps; to apply them you first have to put a status effect to the target; you have a chance to put it every time you attack. now, what's better to maintain the debuff attacking 2.22-2.86 times per sec or 0.5?
third, your comparison with aps wiz is, at best, naive.
last but not least, we are not talking about what a seeker is supposed to do, how pan gu designed them, how they should rescue, with the power of nature, the pwi from the ultimate destruction; we are talking how to maximize single target dps.you only purge once #yopo0 -
Instanced - Lothranis wrote: »Figured I'd repost here to expose my maths to more people (and thus hopefully prove me wrong).
________________________________
Avg weapon damage with R9 build like this is 12 837.5. So with level 11 vortex over 15 seconds...(15/1.5)*(12 837.5+8300)*(2.28 - Att level)*(1.27*2 - crit rate)=1224114.9
Total damage = 1224114.9
Pretty sure you're doing something wrong there, most likely multiple things.
The DPS of Vortex with the build that you linked would be:
(Base + 100% Weapon Damage + 8300)/1.5
Your Base Damage would be 12,837.5, your weapon damage would be 2,603.5, so you get 23,741/1.5 = 15,827.
Multiply that with your crit% and your Attack levels and you get 45,828.
The DPS using normal attacks would be 43,863.
So no, Vortex is superior there.
The DPS of your "aps build" would be 55,429.
Your math is weird but the point is valid.
But an APS seeker is one of the dumbest things one could do, considering that the best thing about Seekers is Yataghan Vortex.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
If you are going to factor in the 20 defense level debuff from northern sky waltz/staggering strike, you also have to factor in the channel/cast time of staggering strike, and how that affects DPS and chi gain.
For the vortex side, the 10 def level (12 def level for demon) 3 minute debuff from soulsever minuet/gemini slash should be factored in.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
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Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »the best thing about Seekers is Yataghan Vortex.
I can't tell if you're trolling, stupid, or simply misguided.0 -
no but all this math brings in a new troll,i call it shizzle my dizzle.This game is like washing hair with shampoo... Rinse and repeat if desired.
Proud owner of many mains.101 bm,101 seeker,101 demon sin,100 sage sin,101 archer,101 barb,100 cleric,100 wiz( first toon since sept 08 finally made it in 2013)newly added mystic 100 HA,72 psy.0 -
SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »Personally going APS on a toon that is designed primarily with magic attacks is pretty stupid.
The Seeker is a BattleMage, not a BladeMaster.
The Seekers high points are the massive amounts of damage that are added by the skills and the debuffs that the Seeker is able to provide. Going APS negates that and you just become another vanilla **** and slash APS toon. Might as well make an APS wizard.
Also no, -chan will not change the damage rate of Vortex, just the time it takes to channel the skill.
You do realize there are some skills that are benefited by APS or are you too blind to see the skill effects? (I do not mean vortex) I won't even tell you how so because that is because you easily admit that APS on a seeker is just an auto attacking APS toon... No need to go full interval, but still...0 -
Whats the source for the claim that vortex hits every 1.5 seconds?AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter0
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Whats the source for the claim that vortex hits every 1.5 seconds?
Skill description says it drains mana every 1.5 seconds.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Skill description says it drains mana every 1.5 seconds.
Yes, but actually having a seeker, I can tell you that if you focus on the damage pop ups, you'll see that vortex actually hits twice at the same time every 3 seconds.0 -
Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »Yes, but actually having a seeker, I can tell you that if you focus on the damage pop ups, you'll see that vortex actually hits twice at the same time every 3 seconds.
Twice at the same time every 3 seconds still averages to 1 hit every 1.5 seconds.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
seeker hits 3 times at once so its kinda 1 hit per sec0
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Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »Yes, but actually having a seeker, I can tell you that if you focus on the damage pop ups, you'll see that vortex actually hits twice at the same time every 3 seconds.Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Twice at the same time every 3 seconds still averages to 1 hit every 1.5 seconds.
How could he not arrive at this conclusion himself... b:chuckleb:shutup[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ☆Emerald Soulsphere. Because that's how I roll.0 -
CatManDoo - Dreamweaver wrote: »seeker hits 3 times at once so its kinda 1 hit per sec
Thats how it seems to me.AKA PermaSpark, Heartshatter0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »Twice at the same time every 3 seconds still averages to 1 hit every 1.5 seconds.
Actually it's about one hit per second. Every 3 seconds or so it'll show the damage done in those 3 seconds and there's always three numbers popping up.
And also, sage heart shatter's description states that it increases the metal/physical damage by an additional 15% (since level 11 HS makes it 35%, adding sage to that would get you a 50%, nowhere near your 150% b:surrender). Not to mention that would make seekers too OP xD.0 -
Meda b:dirty b:dirty b:kiss0
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50% increased damage is 150% of normal damage, that's where I got 150%. 100% + 50% = 150%, simple math.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
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Mmhm, saying that the description stated so makes things confusing
.
I'd go with a sage seeker to maximize damage since sage B/S mastery increases the damage by 90% compared to level 10 one one which only increases by 60% (whoops, confused skills :< it's 60% not 75%), while demon gives a 1% increase in critical rate and a 75% increase xD.0 -
are you seriously making assumptions about vortex' interval between hits by observing the way numbers pop up? if you go to the big room i did a few min ago would probably still see numbers popping. not to mention how accurate your perception of 1sec is....
vortex hits every 1.5sec, no matter how you see numbers popping lol... what's next, saying that vortex hits 5/s cause you got a bit laggy? i tested it a few days after the EG expansion and i tested it again jsut now: went to ancient dragon, vortexed with a lvl1 sword
weapon dmg: 5-6 (avg 5.5)
p.attack: 406-410 (avg 408)
crit: 8%
vortex lvl 5 so dmg per hit: 6292.925
actual dmg per hit: 5066
including crits: 5471
vortexed for 2min, dealt 456,124 dmg
456,124/5471 = 83 hits
120 sec/83 = 1.45 sec
/issueyou only purge once #yopo0 -
my dmg with r9+10 is 9000-11000k
normal attacks on the dmg tester deal 20k with zerk 40 with zerk crit 80k normal math
lets take a possible 2.22 seeker build where you got lesser dmg (missing attack level) lets say 70k critzerk 35k crit and 17k normal so we get ~35-140k each second (unsparked)
a vortex deal 60k normal 120 with crit and 240 with zerkcrit every 1,5 sec
after 3 sec we have here max dmg with aps 420k with vortex we can have a max dmg 720k
so SHUT THE **** UP aps is nonsense0 -
my dmg with r9+10 is 9000-11000k
normal attacks on the dmg tester deal 20k with zerk 40 with zerk crit 80k normal math
lets take a possible 2.22 seeker build where you got lesser dmg (missing attack level) lets say 70k critzerk 35k crit and 17k normal so we get ~35-140k each second (unsparked)
a vortex deal 60k normal 120 with crit and 240 with zerkcrit every 1,5 sec
after 3 sec we have here max dmg with aps 420k with vortex we can have a max dmg 720k
so SHUT THE **** UP aps is nonsense
Reviving an old thread when it's likely to get locked because of your post is also nonsense.
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Please do not post in threads whose last reply is a month or more ago. This is called a necro and is against forum rules. Thanks. b:thanks
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