Sage V Demon as a barb?

beastmasterjr · April 2012

Hi guys,

So I have been procrastinating to level my barb pass 88 because I am so unsure of whether to go sage or demon, so I wish to get some advise because I wanna continue my barb haha!

Atm I know this much:

Sage = tank

Demon = APS

I have also been told that Demon tanks at 100+ can tank all the things they need to anyway, so even if they are APS, it is not like they "cant" tank, whereas Sage tanks can tank BETTER but are useless damage?

I originally wanted to tank, but we all know that because of APS, the idea of what a "tank" is, is not simply a barb with high hp anymore.

So the question is, should I go demon, in anticipation of APS eventually or sage because ... well I tank from 89-100, but at the 100+ catergory is sage still going to be greater than demon?

Please keep in mind I am not ever going to be focusing on "TW" so please dont give, "pull catas" as a reason for sage.

Please I want some constructive advise and things to back it up. Would prefer not to have just comments like "go this, just do it" I want some reasons as to why so I can formulate an educated judgement

Pros and cons would be awesome

!!

Thanks a bunch for this guys,

Kind regards,

Beastmastajr

Doom_Panda - Harshlands · April 2012

Pros about going Sage: More HP and Phy Defense with Sage BKI, True Form and SSI better damage with Sage Titans and Axe and Hammer Mastery. Debuff from Penetrate Armor reduces Phy Def more. Sage Arma takes 15% less HP and MP.

Cons about going Sage: Nerfed damage in True Form.

Pro's about going Demon: Better Damage with Demon True Form and better APS if you restat to APS build with demon spark. Faster chi gain from Demon BKI and Crit from Demon Titans, A and H mastery and Demon SSI. Demon Devour reduces Phy Def more. Also Sunder makes all attacks criticals for 5 seconds. Demon Arma hits 10% harder. And increased damage from Poison Fang.

Con's about going Demon: Less HP and Phy Def than Sage.

Also you can go APS with Sage but you will have 4 APS with all the APS gear. And it really depends on your playstyle do you want more HP and Phy Def in tiger? Or do you want increased Damage?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sorry, I'd put most of your assumptions in as false.

sage=/= tank
demon=/= aps

In fact, with R8 offering -int the choice to be a 5 aps sage with a standing 45% debuff is very tempting. Sage make about as good aps barbs as demon, possibly better because going true form gives them their hp back for pulls. Demon just gets easier aps sooner.

There is no hp issue at 100+ for tanking pve for either class.

Simply put,
sage = pdef/hp
demon=aggro/damage

Because of this, I think demon makes the better tank. Tanking is part being able to survive, part being able to keep aggro. Since both culti's will have enough hp to tank and survive anything, the aggro skills of demon round them out better than the further increase in hp and pdef of sage (something barb's already have plenty of).

Sooo... you'll hear people talk about sage having better titans. Its a 10% weapon difference (about 1-1.5% dph). Demon have a 10% better Poison Fang to equal things out. The difference is your melee DDs get the damage boost of Titans where only you get the damage boost of Poison Fang. Demon Titans also gives a 5% crit bonus for the entire squad (about a 4% dps boost) but for only 1 minute making it great for right before bosses. So Demon Titans is better for 1 minute after the buff, and demon Poison Fang helps hold aggro better.

Demon Flesh Ream is more spammable for better aggro.

People love demon chi barbs (pass 20 chi to squad mates with hp buff). They can fill an entire squads 4 sparks faster than a veno can lending hand twice.

Best combo in the game: Sunder (gives 100% crit rate) + Tree of Protection + Armageddon (always crits because of Sunder). Sunder, criting every time, becomes one of the strongest aoes around, almost rivaling Armageddon. Sage has a safer Arma that is basically still level 10, but takes less hp/mp to use, and their Sunder is nothing special.

This means sage lack in tiger form aoes, leading to the dreaded "standing tank" where sage barbs (despite having gone sage for the trueform bonuses) stand up to do aoes like slam (which I hate *rage*). Many sage tend to stand up to DD on bosses endgame because if they're not the tank then they can either devour spam or DD.

So I see two reasons to go sage. One is because you have a Love:Up and Down and plan on getting -int R8 chestplate and want to be an aps barb. The other is this:

beastmasterjr wrote: »

"pull catas" as a reason for sage.

This is a generalization but Sage is for cata pulling or to have pretty looking easy hp. Demon is for tanking and 1v1 pvp. Both can go aps.

beastmasterjr · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sorry, I'd put most of your assumptions in as false.

sage=/= tank
demon=/= aps

In fact, with R8 offering -int the choice to be a 5 aps sage with a standing 45% debuff is very tempting. Sage make about as good aps barbs as demon, possibly better because going true form gives them their hp back for pulls. Demon just gets easier aps sooner.

There is no hp issue at 100+ for tanking pve for either class.

Simply put,
sage = pdef/hp
demon=aggro/damage

Because of this, I think demon makes the better tank. Tanking is part being able to survive, part being able to keep aggro. Since both culti's will have enough hp to tank and survive anything, the aggro skills of demon round them out better than the further increase in hp and pdef of sage (something barb's already have plenty of).

Sooo... you'll hear people talk about sage having better titans. Its a 10% weapon difference (about 1-1.5% dph). Demon have a 10% better Poison Fang to equal things out. The difference is your melee DDs get the damage boost of Titans where only you get the damage boost of Poison Fang. Demon Titans also gives a 5% crit bonus for the entire squad (about a 4% dps boost) but for only 1 minute making it great for right before bosses. So Demon Titans is better for 1 minute after the buff, and demon Poison Fang helps hold aggro better.

Demon Flesh Ream is more spammable for better aggro.

People love demon chi barbs (pass 20 chi to squad mates with hp buff). They can fill an entire squads 4 sparks faster than a veno can lending hand twice.

Best combo in the game: Sunder (gives 100% crit rate) + Tree of Protection + Armageddon (always crits because of Sunder). Sunder, criting every time, becomes one of the strongest aoes around, almost rivaling Armageddon. Sage has a safer Arma that is basically still level 10, but takes less hp/mp to use, and their Sunder is nothing special.

This means sage lack in tiger form aoes, leading to the dreaded "standing tank" where sage barbs (despite having gone sage for the trueform bonuses) stand up to do aoes like slam (which I hate *rage*). Many sage tend to stand up to DD on bosses endgame because if they're not the tank then they can either devour spam or DD.

So I see two reasons to go sage. One is because you have a Love:Up and Down and plan on getting -int R8 chestplate and want to be an aps barb. The other is this:

This is a generalization but Sage is for cata pulling or to have pretty looking easy hp. Demon is for tanking and 1v1 pvp. Both can go aps.

So basically for me from what you are saying, the better build would be the demon path but I wish to know then the next question is.. APS or not to APS? And the same pro / cons of sage v demon?

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · April 2012

beastmasterjr wrote: »

So basically for me from what you are saying, the better build would be the demon path but I wish to know then the next question is.. APS or not to APS? And the same pro / cons of sage v demon?

Depends.

Are you going to pvp? Yes - maybe, no - claw.

Are you going to farm at least full +10 refines? Yes - Claw, no - no.

That's a really basic flow diagram. Claw barb do not really need blood bath in PvP so they 'claw back' (haha I'm so clever) some HP they would've lost through adding to vit instead. The difference between adding 150 dex and 150 str is not that huge, 100% weapon damage is neither here nor there when endgame PvP so often requires a zerk/crit or even a combination of both to end and win a fight.

If you're only going to PvE then there's no real reason not to go claw build. You maintain aggro better and is able to tank in both tiger and human form.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

I'm a proponent for aps but it really is a personal choice. And if you go aps, wait till level 99 and pwcalc your build to see what your hp will be after a restat. Aps is supposed to add to what a barb can do and make you useful in more situations but if you do it too early it can be a negative.

Demon is the cheaper path to aps for obvious reasons. Sage Penetrate Armor, combined with rank 8 recast for 5.0, makes sage probably the better aps endgame but Sage PA is basically impossible to find (runs ~80+m on my server) and rerolling r8 can easily be in the hundreds of millions.

What I do to support my squad as a debuffer and an aps dd is run up in tiger form and devour (glitches you for 100% accuracy till the boss is dead, giving you about an 8% boost over BM damage) for the 50% debuff. Then after each spark I switch to axes, PA, and switch to claws. If I'm in a squad with +12 zerk sins I may just PA every 10 seconds rather than wait till my spark ends. Waiting till you spark is actually the lazier way of doing it since then PA is only active 10/18 seconds but your devour lasts 15 seconds and most bosses are dead before your first spark or first PA wears off.

beastmasterjr · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm a proponent for aps but it really is a personal choice. And if you go aps, wait till level 99 and pwcalc your build to see what your hp will be after a restat. Aps is supposed to add to what a barb can do and make you useful in more situations but if you do it too early it can be a negative.

Demon is the cheaper path to aps for obvious reasons. Sage Penetrate Armor, combined with rank 8 recast for 5.0, makes sage probably the better aps endgame but Sage PA is basically impossible to find (runs ~80+m on my server) and rerolling r8 can easily be in the hundreds of millions.

What I do to support my squad as a debuffer and an aps dd is run up in tiger form and devour (glitches you for 100% accuracy till the boss is dead, giving you about an 8% boost over BM damage) for the 50% debuff. Then after each spark I switch to axes, PA, and switch to claws. If I'm in a squad with +12 zerk sins I may just PA every 10 seconds rather than wait till my spark ends. Waiting till you spark is actually the lazier way of doing it since then PA is only active 10/18 seconds but your devour lasts 15 seconds and most bosses are dead before your first spark or first PA wears off.

--Edited as I noticed you mentioned 99, rephrased question

So would you say don't switch till 99? how do you "do your role" as a claw barb, you mentioned it there, but a step by step guide would be useful (approximately).

Thanks

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

beastmasterjr wrote: »

--Edited as I noticed you mentioned 99, rephrased question

So would you say don't switch till 99? how do you "do your role" as a claw barb, you mentioned it there, but a step by step guide would be useful (approximately).

Thanks

Many barbs don't have -int wrists before level 99. With TT99 you get gear bonuses from 2 pieces HA and 2 pieces of LA, each giving you -.05. So right there is -.2 int (wrists give -1 and set bonus gives -.05 x 2). Deicides you can get at 95. -int pants you can get at 100. So the bulk of your -int gear is 95+ with alot of it being the TT99 stuff. Switching prior to having this stuff just isn't worth it because you lose the hp but don't really gain much more dps until you stack -int gear. So yes, wait till 99 and decent refines to switch.

A claw barbs role is the same as any other barbs. Do the pulls, aggro the mobs, don't lose aggro. If you can't keep aggro then support where you can.

If I were doing a BH79 I would start out in tiger form and pull as many as I could. I'd then bestial rage, invoke, roar, sunder, surf impact, frighten. Just like any other barb. The difference is as we got down to 2-3 mobs I'd probably pop human form and kill them quicker with my fists, then back to tiger. Alot of mobs kite in there so I might find it easier to run up in tiger and use alacrity to freeze them then immediately switch to human and claws and try to kill them before they were unfrozen, rather than a normal barb that would just ream/devour and wait for others to kill.

When we get to a boss I would judge my other DDs. Can I hold aggro with ream or claws better? Usually I chose claws so I catch with a Flesh Ream to hold aggro for a second while I devour then go human and triple spark. Then I just aps the boss with the occasional Penetrate Armor to help mine and other peoples dd. If I have way more DD then Penetrate is a good idea, but if I'm aggro bouncing I won't use it because it takes 2 seconds to cast and I miss 10 attacks so it may be better not to PA and focus more on DD for aggro instead.

I've written out before why aps gives you better survivability against single bosses. Namely my barbs dps is around 160k where the typical barbs is around 30k, so I'm getting 530% more paint heals than they are, I always have the chi to invoke so I can spend 1/3 of the time with 90% dmg reduction, I can spark for 3 second immunity and 20% heals every 12 seconds, and I can Sunder at will for 4k heals.

Also, you kind of mix the soloing ability of a sin with a barb when you go aps. For soloing BH Seat I will pull about 10 mobs at a time, bestial rage and invoke, then triple spark and aps each mob like a sin would except with way more defense and hp than a sin. You do have the option of aoeing them to death but my point is triple sparked you can 1v1 groups to death quicker than they can hurt you because of the rate you get paint back.

beastmasterjr · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Many barbs don't have -int wrists before level 99. With TT99 you get gear bonuses from 2 pieces HA and 2 pieces of LA, each giving you -.05. So right there is -.2 int (wrists give -1 and set bonus gives -.05 x 2). Deicides you can get at 95. -int pants you can get at 100. So the bulk of your -int gear is 95+ with alot of it being the TT99 stuff. Switching prior to having this stuff just isn't worth it because you lose the hp but don't really gain much more dps until you stack -int gear. So yes, wait till 99 and decent refines to switch.

A claw barbs role is the same as any other barbs. Do the pulls, aggro the mobs, don't lose aggro. If you can't keep aggro then support where you can.

If I were doing a BH79 I would start out in tiger form and pull as many as I could. I'd then bestial rage, invoke, roar, sunder, surf impact, frighten. Just like any other barb. The difference is as we got down to 2-3 mobs I'd probably pop human form and kill them quicker with my fists, then back to tiger. Alot of mobs kite in there so I might find it easier to run up in tiger and use alacrity to freeze them then immediately switch to human and claws and try to kill them before they were unfrozen, rather than a normal barb that would just ream/devour and wait for others to kill.

When we get to a boss I would judge my other DDs. Can I hold aggro with ream or claws better? Usually I chose claws so I catch with a Flesh Ream to hold aggro for a second while I devour then go human and triple spark. Then I just aps the boss with the occasional Penetrate Armor to help mine and other peoples dd. If I have way more DD then Penetrate is a good idea, but if I'm aggro bouncing I won't use it because it takes 2 seconds to cast and I miss 10 attacks so it may be better not to PA and focus more on DD for aggro instead.

I've written out before why aps gives you better survivability against single bosses. Namely my barbs dps is around 160k where the typical barbs is around 30k, so I'm getting 530% more paint heals than they are, I always have the chi to invoke so I can spend 1/3 of the time with 90% dmg reduction, I can spark for 3 second immunity and 20% heals every 12 seconds, and I can Sunder at will for 4k heals.

Also, you kind of mix the soloing ability of a sin with a barb when you go aps. For soloing BH Seat I will pull about 10 mobs at a time, bestial rage and invoke, then triple spark and aps each mob like a sin would except with way more defense and hp than a sin. You do have the option of aoeing them to death but my point is triple sparked you can 1v1 groups to death quicker than they can hurt you because of the rate you get paint back.

Very comprehensive, thank for you that. Another question I have is; if I go claw at 99/100, how many pieces would I need minimum before I would change.. I realise I can't go 5 APS straight away, but for farming purposes to get closer to 5APS, what APS would you need gain some cash.... either soloing up to big rooms or lower tt mats etc etc...?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

I'd say aim for 3.33 sparked at a minimum before switching.

That would be 2.5 base and requires a total of -.3 int. So Deicides come with -.1, fists come with -.1, and then get the other -.1 from two pieces of either cape, TT99 HA bonus, TT99 LA bonus, tome, or pants.

The other question is LA ornies or LA wrist and boots, if you go this route. I like LA wrists and boots because anyone that has LA ornies is too squishy because they miss out on refining their ornies for defenses. However, LA wrist and boots obviously don't refine as well as HA so you miss some hp by getting these. I still think that LA wrist and boots is the least penalizing option for -int if you don't have an interval tome.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · April 2012

I rolled Demon on my Barb.

I also did a pure str build for the 90's.

Caveat: I have a +10 3 socket Warsoul helm with 3 vit stones in it, and a Lunar -int cape with the same refine and stones, which right there, bumped my HP up even with 3 base Vit.

I built my barb to be a non-claw, interval based, Zerk Axe, hard hitting aggro holder.

Hitting a Zerk on FleshReam is actually pretty awesome for holding aggro. I have TT90G axes, and they aren't refined that far, but my DPH is high enough that I can 'break even' with the cost of zerk if I have Bloodpaint, or come out ahead with sage BP.

I will possibly be restatting to a vit build at 100+. But, at that time, I will be doing PVP and not PVE.

I have 80 dex with all my gear on, and just shy of 500 str. 3 base magic. I have 16.7k HP when buffed.

And Demon BKI recovers 40 chi per use for everyone in your squad, not 20.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

And Demon BKI recovers 40 chi per use for everyone in your squad, not 20.

Demon BKI "lets affected heroes gain 50% more chi." The skill normally gives 10 chi, so you 50% more is 15 chi. It also gives everyone in squad 20 chi, and since you are in squad you get the 20 chi + the 15 chi for using the skill for a total of 35.

Still not crazy about people who try to combine axes and -int. Since interval grows exponentially the change in dps at low -int are less affected than the dps growth at already high levels. So yes, interval helps increase axe dps around 3-7%, but it helps increase fist dps 20-25%. Combine that with the unbalanced refine ratio between axe and fists and that's why claw barbs do about 6x more dps than even a pure strength -interval axe barb.

I mean, its better than nothing, obviously. I'm not crazy about it but at least that combined with zerk and the ability to use aggro skills (unaffected by -int anyways) and you are at least making an honest attempt to hold aggro endgame while staying in tiger form.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · April 2012

Don't neglect your tank built when you switch to aps.

A common mistake that Aps Barbs do is to sacrifice too much HP during restating. Those barbs will end up with too little HP to pull any Rebirth Delta(RB). So, a suggestion would be to go through a couple of RB while you still have tons of vitality. From there, you can determine how much survivability you are willing sacrifice and see if you are ready to restat to claw/fist. Usually, aim for a minimum 15k HP in buffed tiger form after restating.

Gear wise, starting APS gear would be TT99 HA boots & arms with TT99 LA belt & necklace in APS built (look for a least 70 mil worth of investment). Then, when needed in tank form, switch the LA belt/neck to a magic-defence necklace and belt. In this built, you will have HA boots and arms which are both common to your aps built and tank built. So, when you will add refines and shards to your boots and arms, you will increase the survivability for both aps and tank form. (note: instead of HA boots & arms, similar combinations as in: HA boots & chest also works).

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide · April 2012

beastmasterjr wrote: »

Hi guys,

So I have been procrastinating to level my barb pass 88 because I am so unsure of whether to go sage or demon, so I wish to get some advise because I wanna continue my barb haha!

Atm I know this much:

Sage = tank

Demon = APS

I have also been told that Demon tanks at 100+ can tank all the things they need to anyway, so even if they are APS, it is not like they "cant" tank, whereas Sage tanks can tank BETTER but are useless damage?

I originally wanted to tank, but we all know that because of APS, the idea of what a "tank" is, is not simply a barb with high hp anymore.

So the question is, should I go demon, in anticipation of APS eventually or sage because ... well I tank from 89-100, but at the 100+ catergory is sage still going to be greater than demon?

Please keep in mind I am not ever going to be focusing on "TW" so please dont give, "pull catas" as a reason for sage.

Please I want some constructive advise and things to back it up. Would prefer not to have just comments like "go this, just do it" I want some reasons as to why so I can formulate an educated judgement Pros and cons would be awesome !!

Thanks a bunch for this guys,

Kind regards,

Beastmastajr

I had the same conundrum myself,

Really you could be either, the only reason to choose one over the other is a very favorable skill or perk for going that way. Or, perhaps you are a VIT build, you can go demon to counter your lack of DPS. Vice versa is true.

One thing I've learned is that it could be extremely beneficial to be balanced... IE Str build barb with Mdef sharding and Mdef ornaments. Yeah sure, not a lot of HP. But you make up for it with much, much better Mdef than a barb would be who didn't get those Mdefs.

And for your aggro problem... Let's assume you're Str build, still got aggro problems? Not a problem, going demon and getting Demon True Form will help you out big time with that.

In the end, a good and fairly high refined weapon is all you need to hold aggro.

You should ask your APS DDs if they want you to flesh ream or devour.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide · April 2012

Also, guys.

Bestial Rage > Invoke > Instantly recover your 2 sparks.

Pulling delta sp is (I've experienced up to w3 marshal something boss) was easy, assuming you can time your anti-movement debuff-buff skill/Vacuity herbs correctly. 1 Holy path to quickly pull the mobs back after roaring. By the time you got most of the mobs grouped around you (My genie anyway 2.5 recov/sec i think) I'm able to get an alpha male pretty quickly to help keep aggro from the DDs using an AOE (help lol).

I can't say much about delta, went to it twice so far. $:\$

Notion - Lost City · April 2012

I'm actually full vit Demon for PvP, lol. Demon skills are absolutely broken for barbs. Accuracy goes up for Blood Bath, Wood dmg goes up for Poison Fang, Crit buff from Strength of the Titans, chii spam from Beast King's Inspiration, Perdition deals 10% more damage and Bestial Onslaught adds a staggering 35% crit.

There's no contest in arguing Sage is better for a Cata barb, however if you're looking for a fun build to PK with? Demon vit build, I always enjoy it.

Edit: Use demon roar in TW, it's fun watching sins 2shot themselves on you.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon BKI "lets affected heroes gain 50% more chi." The skill normally gives 10 chi, so you 50% more is 15 chi. It also gives everyone in squad 20 chi, and since you are in squad you get the 20 chi + the 15 chi for using the skill for a total of 35.

Still not crazy about people who try to combine axes and -int. Since interval grows exponentially the change in dps at low -int are less affected than the dps growth at already high levels. So yes, interval helps increase axe dps around 3-7%, but it helps increase fist dps 20-25%. Combine that with the unbalanced refine ratio between axe and fists and that's why claw barbs do about 6x more dps than even a pure strength -interval axe barb.

I mean, its better than nothing, obviously. I'm not crazy about it but at least that combined with zerk and the ability to use aggro skills (unaffected by -int anyways) and you are at least making an honest attempt to hold aggro endgame while staying in tiger form.

The hell? When I buff myself with it, I gain 40 chi. o.O Not 35.

My build: Pure Str Demon with some -int gear and Zerk axes (TT90g). Very good at holding aggro in kitty form. I have no dex, so it's an Axe only build, and I'll either go pure Vit or stay pure Str at endgame.

I'm not seeing the +PDef from Sage BKI, or SoT, or true form. o.O How does sage get better PDef compared to Demon?

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · April 2012

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not seeing the +PDef from Sage BKI, or SoT, or true form. o.O How does sage get better PDef compared to Demon?

SSI gives +120% p.def (from memory)

WnbTank - Archosaur · April 2012

Notion - Lost City wrote: »

I'm actually full vit Demon for PvP, lol. Demon skills are absolutely broken for barbs. Accuracy goes up for Blood Bath, Wood dmg goes up for Poison Fang, Crit buff from Strength of the Titans, chii spam from Beast King's Inspiration, Perdition deals 10% more damage and Bestial Onslaught adds a staggering 35% crit.

There's no contest in arguing Sage is better for a Cata barb, however if you're looking for a fun build to PK with? Demon vit build, I always enjoy it.

Edit: Use demon roar in TW, it's fun watching sins 2shot themselves on you.

Due demon roar proc working on TW - I think it's better for TW on my server due sins being everywhere. Sins try to help bring me down few times till they stop killing themselves on the proc. That helps a lot in surviving. I know I'm biased but I've started to think sage is only better as buff monkey.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Due demon roar proc working on TW - I think it's better for TW on my server due sins being everywhere. Sins try to help bring me down few times till they stop killing themselves on the proc. That helps a lot in surviving. I know I'm biased but I've started to think sage is only better as buff monkey.

Travel next to another barb pulling a cata. People will come up and expect you to be defensive and invoke and not really fight back, saving genie and chi for survival. That's when you ninja demon barb them and roar, use arma, or swap to fists and kick their butts

Its fun and helpful on cata defense but still not as useful as a cata puller.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · April 2012

this topic is just toooooo big for me and my lazyness... but seriously... i was about to start and i just stoped after read this

beastmasterjr wrote: »

Atm I know this much:

Sage = tank

Demon = APS

dude, demon barbs aren't only aps b:scorn have you ever saw the demon skills? they are just awesome! what about high crit chance for a melee?tiger form hitting 100%... and if we deal a zerkcrit hit is like bye for whoever gets on the way...!

demon barbs are not only aps toons, they tank like sage, they can have as much hp as a sage, they can pull groups or catas like a sage, the only diference is that demon barbs are much better for pvp than a sage... true form hitting 100%, sunder giving 5sec of highest crit chance, devour=50%, build chi from hp buff, titans give 5% crit, demon BO is perfect! and for me the best skill, armageddon demon which hits 10% more.

who says demon = aps is stupid!b:bye

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · April 2012

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide wrote: »

this topic is just toooooo big for me and my lazyness... but seriously... i was about to start and i just stoped after read this

dude, demon barbs aren't only aps b:scorn have you ever saw the demon skills? they are just awesome! what about high crit chance for a melee?tiger form hitting 100%... and if we deal a zerkcrit hit is like bye for whoever gets on the way...!

demon barbs are not only aps toons, they tank like sage, they can have as much hp as a sage, they can pull groups or catas like a sage, the only diference is that demon barbs are much better for pvp than a sage... true form hitting 100%, sunder giving 5sec of highest crit chance, devour=50%, build chi from hp buff, titans give 5% crit, demon BO is perfect! and for me the best skill, armageddon demon which hits 10% more.

who says demon = aps is stupid!b:bye

Demon isn't gonna have the same HP as Sage. Same gear vs same gear, with the same stats points distribution, Sage will have more HP in tiger form than a Demon. They also can't pull a Cata like a Sage.

Demon Str build is a sort of mix of DD and Tank. Demon Vit build is good for Arma.

Built right, Demon can tank better than sage. Built right, Sage will have more HP than Demon.

Either way, you can't really go wrong with Demon builds, though if you do a pure Str build on Sage, it kind of fails.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · April 2012

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon isn't gonna have the same HP as Sage. Same gear vs same gear, with the same stats points distribution, Sage will have more HP in tiger form than a Demon. They also can't pull a Cata like a Sage.

Demon Str build is a sort of mix of DD and Tank. Demon Vit build is good for Arma.

Built right, Demon can tank better than sage. Built right, Sage will have more HP than Demon.

Either way, you can't really go wrong with Demon builds, though if you do a pure Str build on Sage, it kind of fails.

i said they can have as much hp as a sage, i didn't said was the same, and a demon barb can be so good as sage while being cata, a sage barb has a bit more hp and pdef than a equally geared demon barb, it just depends if the player is really good as a barb or nothing more than a idiot...

about the pure str as sage, i've seen a lot nowadays, usually they get sage A/H mastery. titans, and put everything on str, and go to pk like they have the biggest dmg of the game...
and it kinda sucks when they have the hp lower than 24k, less than 1k accuracy(it's like 1 hit each 10 atks) and get 1 shoted by mag classes or facerolled by sins... so if i were a sage barb i'd just use for tw and maybe delta. not that sage barbs are fail, they aren't! but a pure str sucks b:shutup

Hurrdurr - Lothranis · April 2012

HA builds so 2008, hipster AA barb coming through.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · April 2012

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

HA builds so 2008, hipster AA barb coming through.

lol you so 2011, naked ungeared barbs are the way.. 6k hp ftw!

CeVil - Momaganon · April 2012

Hello there, PWI barbs,
have played both demon and sage barbs now, and after doing some impossible build calculations with +12 everything and pdef ornaments too (unlikely build for final barbs), the difference is around 5k pdef (46k vs 41k), which is actually 1% damage reduction less for demon, AND, *drums*, around 2k hp.
If you seriously think that your super duper sage barb who has 2k more hp and fail power, no crit, etc is so much better of a barb, then I am sorry, but you are wrong.

Go on and criticize me, I know I'm not going sage on a barb again.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide · April 2012

cevil - Momaganon wrote: »

hello There, Pwi Barbs,
Have Played Both Demon And Sage Barbs Now, And After Doing Some Impossible Build Calculations With +12 Everything And Pdef Ornaments Too (unlikely Build For Final Barbs), The Difference Is Around 5k Pdef (46k Vs 41k), Which Is Actually 1% Damage Reduction Less For Demon, And, *drums*, Around 2k Hp.
If You Seriously Think That Your Super Duper Sage Barb Who Has 2k More Hp And Fail Power, No Crit, Etc Is So Much Better Of A Barb, Then I Am Sorry, But You Are Wrong.

Go On And Criticize Me, I Know I'm Not Going Sage On A Barb Again.

word!

Wild_Garruk - Harshlands · April 2012

HOw about some1 duel sage vs demon see who is the winner...

Im sage and still gearing up *stupid high prices* b:surrender

By the way a player call me nub for putting vit shards on my nirvana gear WTF b:shocked
that I should put sapphire gem lol Im was starting to laugh so hard because I have not seen a barb with saphire shards on their gear...

Yeah sages have low crit rate, we do not do a lot of damage on tiger form, maybe we have 4k more hp than a demon barb... but Im lazy and do not want to spend a lot of coins to pass from sage to demon and recast some points..

I will make an alt barb and will go demon on him see what is best...

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · April 2012

Wow, thread is degenerating. >_>

Demon Barb gets, what, 5% crit rate from Demon skills? Not really worth it IMO just for that.

Sage barb gets better MP recovery rate, Demon gets even more massive HP regen rate.

Sage has a few benefits, Sage Arma won't insta-tick your charm if you have one.

In the end, though, I think Demon is a little more flexible than Sage, especially considering no damage reduction in Tiger form.

CeVil - Momaganon · April 2012

uneducated pwi guy wrote:

Demon Barb gets, what, 5% crit rate from Demon skills? Not really worth it IMO just for that.

before you speak ever again on this thread, go to http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php, and don't claim you have already went there, because what you said was the obvious proof you haven't.

ItsAWolf - Archosaur · April 2012

CeVil - Momaganon wrote: »

before you speak ever again on this thread, go to http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php, and don't claim you have already went there, because what you said was the obvious proof you haven't.

35% and 100% crit are almost equal to 5% b:chuckle

Sage V Demon as a barb?

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