Level 95-99, Morai or Hook and Thorn.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

Leveling up my veno and,... its rough not being the main aps DD in a squad and having to depend on others to make the boss killing go quicker. One thing I keep noticing and keep suggesting is that veno's use Pixie Piercers instead of H&T. Alot seem very doubtful of slaying levels and the lower dph listed on the weapon, and losing that -.05 int seems almost painful to them.

I suggested changing to Pixie Piercers for one friend who PMs for advice, trusts me, and normally follows my advice. He was doubtful but did for the run and said he noticed a difference, but catching him running around later I saw he was back to H&Ts until he got rank 8 at 100.

I haven't seen a thread comparing low refine +2 - +5 H&Ts vs equally refined pre 100 gear or any analysis. I think the PP would be better, despite the -.05 difference, but I'll be impartial and let others give their comparisons first.

Xainou - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

... keep suggesting is that veno's use Pixie Piercers instead of H&T..

Right. xD

I left my PP unrefined and when I tested them vs my +3 H&T they did a little more damage. But it wasn't that much of a difference and I guess the interval of the hooks makes up for it.

So I just kept on using my hooks instead

violetvalor · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I haven't seen a thread comparing low refine +2 - +5 H&Ts vs equally refined pre 100 gear or any analysis. I think the PP would be better, despite the -.05 difference, but I'll be impartial and let others give their comparisons first.

Check these out:

Sage: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFBBM0xrZHpMdDQteFZQb3hCaFZvclE#gid=0
Demon: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradFhQUHROaFl2bExCVEJNbTltMExyZ1E#gid=0

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands · April 2012

I would assume since this is in the sin forums you are not in fact talking about a venomancer.
at lvl 90-98 considering you have the -.1 bracers then it may be more beneficial using the hooks. considering with rank top, interval cape, bracers with -.1 int then hooks will spark to higher. but if you have an interval tome then using pixie peircers would be better considering they spark to the same. however if you are sage then using hook and thorn would be better considering the higher base and windshielded aps.

SeverredSin - Heavens Tear · April 2012

I refined my pixie piercers to +6, deal a lot more damage than +6 hooks, more than worth the slight aps loss.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary · April 2012

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Leveling up my veno and,... its rough not being the main aps DD in a squad and having to depend on others to make the boss killing go quicker. One thing I keep noticing and keep suggesting is that veno's use Pixie Piercers instead of H&T.

A little comment first, ppl being over-interested (to not call it "obsessed") with others gear really gets annoying. For instance, when lvling up my bm, I got soooooooooooo tired of all the "why don't you get deicides?", "why don't you get TT99 armor for -int?", etc. Why would I have to explain every run that I got the +7 fcc fists (which isn't exactly a bad) from my archer and that I got nirvana stuff for 100, so it would be a waste of time to get a weap for 5 lvls and a waste of money to get tt99 just for 1 lvl.

Which is most probably the same reason for others to choose H&T or PP. Some have 2 socketed and refined pretty high their TT80 weapon, and don't feal like getting PP to that point. Others just have pretty basic H&T, so swap to PP when they get it.

Anyway, since the refines are usually capped at +3~4 for those fcc's, the weapon choice won't make that big of a deal. The ones that make a run go fast are usually alts that have pretty good gear and higher refines/gems then the rest. They make the run go fast no matter what class.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · April 2012

Whoa, woops. I did mean Sin's using Pixie Piercers or H&T, obviously. Just wrote the wrong class because I'm now FCCing on my Veno and the support for their damage. It was also 5:30 am.

And I perv others gear because I like to know what to expect, who's spark to amp, if a sin will have "down time" while tanking where they aren't getting much paint heals and may need more amp for more paint heals... Things like that.

Interesting violetvalor, your spreadsheets show at level 95:

sage dps with PP: 13941
sage dps with H&T: 12231

sage sparked dps with PP: 32446
sage sparked dps with H&T: 28524

demon dps with PP: 14302
demon dps with H&T: 11924

demon sparked dps with PP: 40823
demon sparked dps with H&T: 35287

So Pixie Piercers outperformed H&T everytime using your calcs. I'll assume your math right, but I'd still like to do my own calculations. I noticed you used BoBM, which is not possible for some people, although alot still get TT90 gold so I guess its fair. And that was +4 refines on weapon with a -int cape and no interval tome. Realistic enough scenario.

I'd like to put my own dps calcs on two spectrums of no aps->max aps possibly, and low refines (+0) to reasonably high refines (+6) and compare how aps affects the dps and how refines affect the dps. I'm just going to compare demon spark, not sage spark since most sins are demon, and the sin spark doesn't really change too much mathmatically. Also, 45 slaying levels is an increase of 39% damage. I also basically had to create them in pwcalc. I am using 1 socket because 2 socket PP for a cost of about 25m isn't practical, but 2 socket H&T is practical so I continued to use those.

Low aps/low refines: only piece of -int gear is -.05 on the rank plate and with 0 refines. Build is here.
PP unsparked: 10867
PP demon sparked: 32543
H&T unsparked: 9752
H&T demon sparked: 29547

Low aps/high refines: only piece of -int gear is -.05 on the rank plate and with +6 refines. Build is here. When creating my PP in pwcalc, I just added the refine to the base damage so the it says +0 but has the right +6 damage.
PP unsparked: 12394
PP demon sparked: 37120
H&T unsparked: 10729
H&T demon sparked: 32506

high aps/low refines: I am using a pan gu tome, rank plate, BoBM, and -int cape for a total of -.25 int before weapon and with +0 refines. Build is here.
PP unsparked: 15583
PP demon sparked: 45874
H&T unsparked: 14283
H&T demon sparked: 43357

high aps and high refines : I am using a pan gu tome, rank plate, BoBM, and -int cape for a total of -.25 int before weapon and with +6 refines. Build is here.
PP unsparked: 17774
PP demon sparked: 52326
H&T unsparked: 14866
H&T demon sparked: 45127

TT99 and high refines : I am using TT99 LA wrist and boots, TT99 HA neck and belt, a pan gu tome, rank plate, BoBM, and -int cape for a total of -.35 int before weapon and with +6 refines. I figured by now the refines should be moderately high. This is just kind of for fun comparison when you get your 99 gear but still have a level before R8 or G13s Build is here.
PP unsparked: 23451
PP demon sparked: 62810
H&T unsparked: 22247
H&T demon sparked: 61063

Results were Pixie Piercers won in every situation: Higher aps (maxing at 3.33 spark) and higher refines (Pixies benefit more from the higher refine rate and 1.39 slaying multiplier).
Basically, there is no practical situation where H&Ts out dd Pixies in PvE. Pixies do an average of about 20% dps higher unsparked, and 15% higher sparked damage. They also have a higher damage per hit than H&Ts.

ItsAWolf - Archosaur · April 2012

Swapping to Pixie Piercers would mean that you'd need to refine and shard a fresh pair of daggers for just 5 more levels though. I suppose it depends on how long you'll spend at 95-100 whether it's worth it.

The -0.05 interval on the H&T do mean you get to spark slightly more often, which for me as a sage sin means more survivability (more time spent sparked). Then again, 20% more damage would mean more heals and bosses dying sooner, so less pots used.

I'd say both options are alright and I think I might give the PP a go and see how I like em after seeing the quite significant improvement in damage.

violetvalor · April 2012

The builds shown in the spreadsheets' first column were builds I started out with as an example. They are not used in the calculations. Instead, whatever values are in the spreadsheet are used. They have likely changed from the build shown. Regardless, I removed that build column to clear confusion.

Glad my spreadsheet helped. b:pleased

MagicEmpress - Lost City · April 2012

Just to add my two cents...
I got my sin up to 96 now and I'm keeping the +5 H&T.
I tried the Moria daggers and didn't like them. (Only +3 though, if they was +5 maybe I'd feel different but I didn't want to burn mirs on something I couldn't sell)

Here's my call:

I see above the morai daggers hit a little harder but there is more things to consider. My sin is max aps for level (2.0/2.86) and I really notice the loss going down to (1.86/2.5). I don't get my chi back as fast fighting bosses, and I don't seem to take the mobs down as fast. It takes the same number of hits usually per mob even with the slightly higher dph and the hits come slower. I just like the aps hands down. I don't know.... maybe for sins with lower aps the loss isn't felt as keenly. Being 2.86 just rules for 9x.

*3 spark - pop pop pop pop dead pop pop pop pop dead pop pop pop pop dead - 3 spark and repeat*

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · April 2012

well, the max difference appears to be ~7k
while it is an improvement, i dont really think that it's worth switching from H+T;
all the refines/shards will be lost while you can resell (even for some loss) H+T

Level 95-99, Morai or Hook and Thorn.

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